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Plus everyone knows Yarrick is as powerful as he is because the Orks believe he's that powerful, duh.

Tau article is live: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/25/faction-focus-tau-empiregw-homepage-post-4fw-homepage-post-4/

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So the first exception to the new rule is an entire faction. Shocking.

Well they made clear stratagem isn't only way to do ow. And tau were called along with ultrmarines as good ow.

Not that surprising.

No real new info, but I don't think we saw the modifier cap in print yet, so there is that I guess:

Ninjer'ed

so this has been confirmed that it is just he hit rolls not stat increases etc

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
Any news from the twitch stream for today? missed it

Just that when they said "some units will be able to Overwatch" they apparently meant "every unit in the Tau army with The Greater Good rule".

It's to be expected though isn't it? Tau have good overwatch, it's what they do. When facing them you should expect to have to deal with it. The same strategies will still work, with possible new ones afforded by the new rules. I don't see anything stopping my warp talons from shredding them just as easily as they do now. Night Lords eat tau for breakfast, then turn what's left over into fashion accessories.

It's also, putting it lightly, fething tedious to play against.

"Oh I have a combat army... well I guess i'll just give the tau castle 2 shooting phases"

Tau castles are the least fun army you can play against in the game. They have almost zero interaction with anyone. They sit in a corner and shoot and avoid all return fire by dumping it on hidden drones.

It's not like the riptide is going to be any more fun to charge "Oh, it overwatches, and then it shoots your unit dead in its shoot phase". It's pretty damn immune to any but the most excessive melee units already.
Way harder to kill than a knight, or any super heavy.

This, flatly, sucks for the game. GW needs to find a way to make tau play well that isn't "Sit in the corner and shoot and hope that by the end the enemy army has died before its gotten enough points". It's not even fun to beat. I never feel like I've "won" because I racked up points against a tau player that only moved his models after 90 percent of my army was shot to death, and the player just couldn't make up the points difference.

Sitting in a corner and tabling your opponent for the win doesn't win games in 9th. You have to be scoring objectives and if you're waiting until turn 5 to do so, you're going to lose.

the_scotsman wrote:

but they were already doing that. They've been doing that the whole time. Necron dynaties dun like each other, that's already a thing.

And if the Silent King was universally accepted by the Necrons then they would stop doing so, or at least reduce the infighting.

Well until tau is given way to deal with enemy in melee they either need ow or once enemy gets into line it's game over

WHC wrote:The largest challenge for the T’au Empire in the new edition is the change to the Fly keyword. It no longer offers units the ability to Fall Back and shoot,

Doesnt that like completely remove the entire purpose of the Inceptors in the Deathwatch? Or ya know their whole purpose in general?

stratigo wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
Any news from the twitch stream for today? missed it

Just that when they said "some units will be able to Overwatch" they apparently meant "every unit in the Tau army with The Greater Good rule".

It's to be expected though isn't it? Tau have good overwatch, it's what they do. When facing them you should expect to have to deal with it. The same strategies will still work, with possible new ones afforded by the new rules. I don't see anything stopping my warp talons from shredding them just as easily as they do now. Night Lords eat tau for breakfast, then turn what's left over into fashion accessories.

It's also, putting it lightly, fething tedious to play against.

"Oh I have a combat army... well I guess i'll just give the tau castle 2 shooting phases"

Tau castles are the least fun army you can play against in the game. They have almost zero interaction with anyone. They sit in a corner and shoot and avoid all return fire by dumping it on hidden drones.

It's not like the riptide is going to be any more fun to charge "Oh, it overwatches, and then it shoots your unit dead in its shoot phase". It's pretty damn immune to any but the most excessive melee units already.
Way harder to kill than a knight, or any super heavy.

This, flatly, sucks for the game. GW needs to find a way to make tau play well that isn't "Sit in the corner and shoot and hope that by the end the enemy army has died before its gotten enough points". It's not even fun to beat. I never feel like I've "won" because I racked up points against a tau player that only moved his models after 90 percent of my army was shot to death, and the player just couldn't make up the points difference.

Have you considered using more terrain? That is getting buffed in 9th ed, you know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

WHC wrote:The largest challenge for the T’au Empire in the new edition is the change to the Fly keyword. It no longer offers units the ability to Fall Back and shoot,

Doesnt that like completely remove the entire purpose of the Inceptors in the Deathwatch? Or ya know their whole purpose in general?

Those are probably going to get an exception.

stratigo wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
Any news from the twitch stream for today? missed it

Just that when they said "some units will be able to Overwatch" they apparently meant "every unit in the Tau army with The Greater Good rule".

It's to be expected though isn't it? Tau have good overwatch, it's what they do. When facing them you should expect to have to deal with it. The same strategies will still work, with possible new ones afforded by the new rules. I don't see anything stopping my warp talons from shredding them just as easily as they do now. Night Lords eat tau for breakfast, then turn what's left over into fashion accessories.

It's also, putting it lightly, fething tedious to play against.

"Oh I have a combat army... well I guess i'll just give the tau castle 2 shooting phases"

Tau castles are the least fun army you can play against in the game. They have almost zero interaction with anyone. They sit in a corner and shoot and avoid all return fire by dumping it on hidden drones.

It's not like the riptide is going to be any more fun to charge "Oh, it overwatches, and then it shoots your unit dead in its shoot phase". It's pretty damn immune to any but the most excessive melee units already.
Way harder to kill than a knight, or any super heavy.

This, flatly, sucks for the game. GW needs to find a way to make tau play well that isn't "Sit in the corner and shoot and hope that by the end the enemy army has died before its gotten enough points". It's not even fun to beat. I never feel like I've "won" because I racked up points against a tau player that only moved his models after 90 percent of my army was shot to death, and the player just couldn't make up the points difference.

I see your tau castle and I raise you a marine castle.

Like a tau castle, but all the guns shoot at full effectiveness 30" out, their to-hit rerolls aren't limited to once per game and don't require them to be stationary, and they punch more if you get them in melee than if you leave them at range.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

WHC wrote:The largest challenge for the T’au Empire in the new edition is the change to the Fly keyword. It no longer offers units the ability to Fall Back and shoot,

Doesnt that like completely remove the entire purpose of the Inceptors in the Deathwatch? Or ya know their whole purpose in general?

I missed that. It's a good change in general. No idea what the plan for Inceptors will be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
Any news from the twitch stream for today? missed it

Just that when they said "some units will be able to Overwatch" they apparently meant "every unit in the Tau army with The Greater Good rule".

It's to be expected though isn't it? Tau have good overwatch, it's what they do. When facing them you should expect to have to deal with it. The same strategies will still work, with possible new ones afforded by the new rules. I don't see anything stopping my warp talons from shredding them just as easily as they do now. Night Lords eat tau for breakfast, then turn what's left over into fashion accessories.

It's also, putting it lightly, fething tedious to play against.

"Oh I have a combat army... well I guess i'll just give the tau castle 2 shooting phases"

Tau castles are the least fun army you can play against in the game. They have almost zero interaction with anyone. They sit in a corner and shoot and avoid all return fire by dumping it on hidden drones.

It's not like the riptide is going to be any more fun to charge "Oh, it overwatches, and then it shoots your unit dead in its shoot phase". It's pretty damn immune to any but the most excessive melee units already.
Way harder to kill than a knight, or any super heavy.

This, flatly, sucks for the game. GW needs to find a way to make tau play well that isn't "Sit in the corner and shoot and hope that by the end the enemy army has died before its gotten enough points". It's not even fun to beat. I never feel like I've "won" because I racked up points against a tau player that only moved his models after 90 percent of my army was shot to death, and the player just couldn't make up the points difference.

I see your tau castle and I raise you a marine castle.

Like a tau castle, but all the guns shoot at full effectiveness 30" out, their to-hit rerolls aren't limited to once per game and don't require them to be stationary, and they punch more if you get them in melee than if you leave them at range.

Also if they die, the can shoot again.

Is this the first time we've gotten a forgeworld model featured in standard GW art? That's a Necron Pylon up there.
Funny that's its one of the models that features the old clear plastic rods and crystal

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Those are probably going to get an exception.

One would hope.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

WHC wrote:The largest challenge for the T’au Empire in the new edition is the change to the Fly keyword. It no longer offers units the ability to Fall Back and shoot,

Doesnt that like completely remove the entire purpose of the Inceptors in the Deathwatch? Or ya know their whole purpose in general?

I missed that. It's a good change in general. No idea what the plan for Inceptors will be.


.

In general, yeah I dont think its a bad change.

I hate playing against Tau for pretty much the reasons stratigo mentioned. Every other faction is playing Warhammer: 40k. Tau are playing a completely different game all together. We're all playing a strategy game, they're playing a rail shooter.

 EnTyme wrote:
I hate playing against Tau for pretty much the reasons stratigo mentioned. Every other faction is playing Warhammer: 40k. Tau are playing a completely different game all together. We're all playing a strategy game, they're playing a rail shooter.

They can play one, but if they aren't trying to be mobile to cap objectives and the like, they're going to lose every game in the new edition.

Plus Crisis Suits just got nerfed by that fly change to boot.

I wish I could take some satisfaction from being right about the overwatch change amounting to very little because it's going to be dolled out liberally (as in, to an entire faction), but I don't, because it is another case of a bait and switch. They originally said Tau get "two for one" overwatch, but apparently that meant "totally free overwatch across the whole army plus 8th edition FTGG." Oh well.

It isn't necessarily the end of the world, but it's disappointing to see that they're already breaking the basic rule of the edition before it's even released, in order to preserve the worst design flaw in the game in the form of the mono-phase 8th edition T'au army.

 GaroRobe wrote:
Is this the first time we've gotten a forgeworld model featured in standard GW art? That's a Necron Pylon up there

Pylons have featured main studio art before - eg. Warzone: Damnos (pg.7) all the way back in 6th edition.

EDIT: Or, hell, pg.32 of the current Codex: Necrons!

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Sitting in a corner and tabling your opponent for the win doesn't win games in 9th. You have to be scoring objectives and if you're waiting until turn 5 to do so, you're going to lose.

It CAN. 9th mission rules are based heavily off ITC and NOVA, and tau castles can and have top tabled on those. It is entirely reliant on just how hard you gak on your opponent turn 1 and 2. If you completely cripple the enemy army while only taking minimal losses since you have 40 or 50 drones, then you have 4 turns to just run up the score. Tau are, ironically, fugging fantastic at ruining the day of most space marines. But they fall a bit flat competitively against other hard endurance armies cause they can't afford to break up the castle and if they get pinned trying to chunk through 90 plaguebearers in their face, they do lose hard on points.

But, again, even winning on points against the tau castle is unsatisfying. Because you "won" by dying sufficiently slowly that the tau player ran out of time to score. Not by, you know, interacting with the tau army or killing its big pieces.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
I hate playing against Tau for pretty much the reasons stratigo mentioned. Every other faction is playing Warhammer: 40k. Tau are playing a completely different game all together. We're all playing a strategy game, they're playing a rail shooter.

They can play one, but if they aren't trying to be mobile to cap objectives and the like, they're going to lose every game in the new edition.

Plus Crisis Suits just got nerfed by that fly change to boot.

T'au are already a very mobile faction, with excellent ability to hold the middle of the board. Look at the way Siegler plays T'au; he moves to the center of the board and forces you to stay away or else anything that comes within range and LOS just dies. Reducing the board size only buffed this. The changes to FLY and fall back barely touch T'au because if you're playing T'au and letting people get into combat with your main shooters, you've already lost. That's what all those shield drones and breachers are for.

This just encourages the T'au castle even more than it did in the past, sadly.

It's a step in the wrong direction for the faction. What T'au desperately needed was better melee capability and for more of their units to be made viable, not doubling down on the castle with drone shields strategy.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I wish I could take some satisfaction from being right about the overwatch change amounting to very little because it's going to be dolled out liberally (as in, to an entire faction), but I don't, because it is another case of a bait and switch. They originally said Tau get "two for one" overwatch, but apparently that meant "totally free overwatch across the whole army plus 8th edition FTGG." Oh well.

It isn't necessarily the end of the world, but it's disappointing to see that they're already breaking the basic rule of the edition before it's even released, in order to preserve the worst design flaw in the game in the form of the mono-phase 8th edition T'au army.

How does it break a rule? The VERY FIRST SENTENCE of Overwatch says "some units will have rules that allow them to Overwatch". The Greater Good is a rule that allows some units to Overwatch (not Tau tanks for some reason, or their Auxilia). Tau also suck in melee, so having a chance to do damage in the charge phase to soften the foe before said foe punches the Tau's head off is important.

If anything this kills the idea of MSU melee units in TAC lists as you need to be able to weather Overwatch. Additionally, it means Overwatch denial options are still very important as well.

Gotta love the fact that Tau just flt ignore the overwatch limitations the second it got implemented

Not Online!!! wrote:
Gotta love the fact that Tau just flt ignore the overwatch limitations the second it got implemented

It's not like they were going to suddenly not suck in melee without a massive faction redesign, so this was inevitable.

the_scotsman wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
Any news from the twitch stream for today? missed it

Just that when they said "some units will be able to Overwatch" they apparently meant "every unit in the Tau army with The Greater Good rule".

It's to be expected though isn't it? Tau have good overwatch, it's what they do. When facing them you should expect to have to deal with it. The same strategies will still work, with possible new ones afforded by the new rules. I don't see anything stopping my warp talons from shredding them just as easily as they do now. Night Lords eat tau for breakfast, then turn what's left over into fashion accessories.

It's also, putting it lightly, fething tedious to play against.

"Oh I have a combat army... well I guess i'll just give the tau castle 2 shooting phases"

Tau castles are the least fun army you can play against in the game. They have almost zero interaction with anyone. They sit in a corner and shoot and avoid all return fire by dumping it on hidden drones.

It's not like the riptide is going to be any more fun to charge "Oh, it overwatches, and then it shoots your unit dead in its shoot phase". It's pretty damn immune to any but the most excessive melee units already.
Way harder to kill than a knight, or any super heavy.

This, flatly, sucks for the game. GW needs to find a way to make tau play well that isn't "Sit in the corner and shoot and hope that by the end the enemy army has died before its gotten enough points". It's not even fun to beat. I never feel like I've "won" because I racked up points against a tau player that only moved his models after 90 percent of my army was shot to death, and the player just couldn't make up the points difference.

I see your tau castle and I raise you a marine castle.

Like a tau castle, but all the guns shoot at full effectiveness 30" out, their to-hit rerolls aren't limited to once per game and don't require them to be stationary, and they punch more if you get them in melee than if you leave them at range.

The marine castle isn't good for the game, but mostly because GW overtuned marines and they excell way too damn hard.

an actual marine castle is far more interactive and has a lot more counter play possible.

Even if you hard nerfed tau to just be worse at doing what they do so, they'd still be the worst army in the game to play against even if you always beat them, because they don't interact meaningfully with huge chunks of the game.

A marine castle isn't virtually immune to melee and charges. It can build in a counter punch. But tau just straight ignore it because they absorb any damage through having both extremely strong and hard it injure centerpieces and the ability to shunt wounds to extremely efficient screens. Tau pretty much ignore flat out 2 phases of the game (except to throw dice), and have far less choices they have to make in what is the most important phase of the game, movement. Their only real interactions are target priority. And shooting has always been kind of the duldrums of the game where you just sit there and remove your models.

 ClockworkZion wrote:


If anything this kills the idea of MSU melee units in TAC lists as you need to be able to weather Overwatch. Additionally, it means Overwatch denial options are still very important as well.

No, it promotes the opposite. The way you beat FTGG if you don't have overwatch suppression is to use a MSU unit to force them to waste FTGG to wipe it, then charge with a second unit that can't be overwatched except by the primary thing you're charging. It is essentially impossible to "weather" FTGG; whatever you charge with first is going to die, unless they make the cardinal mistake of splitting fire and don't commit enough units to wipe the first charger.

stratigo wrote:
But, again, even winning on points against the tau castle is unsatisfying. Because you "won" by dying sufficiently slowly that the tau player ran out of time to score. Not by, you know, interacting with the tau army or killing its big pieces.

I disagree. I beat a Necron army in 6th with 3 Sisters of Battle still on the table, to an army that only lose three models. That was INCREDIBLY satisfying to me.

Then again I was playing an army themed around martyrdom, so maybe my bias is showing there.

40k is a game where you'll lose models even if your winning. Winning despite the fact you lost models will always be important, and being mad that you have to outplay a static opponent feels a bit "meh".

And I know people brought up top table Tau armies, but let's be honest: most of us will never play Tau armies run that well, or that finely tuned. Heck, most of us aren't even running armies that finely tuned either. I'm not saying the potential for the army to curbstomp isn't there, but just because one person can make it do something doesn't mean it's going to be that way in everyone's hands. See: Grey Knights pre-Ritual of the Damned. They won an Australian GT, but in the hands of your average player, they still sucked.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Sitting in a corner and tabling your opponent for the win doesn't win games in 9th. You have to be scoring objectives and if you're waiting until turn 5 to do so, you're going to lose.

unitl tournaments come up and add "tabling = full points win" because it would be unfair otherwise

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Gotta love the fact that Tau just flt ignore the overwatch limitations the second it got implemented

It's not like they were going to suddenly not suck in melee without a massive faction redesign, so this was inevitable.

Come on, Zion. You're just highlighting one of the major flaws of 40k with that argument. Melee is too binary, and that's what leads to so many issues people have with the game. Either your army is really good at it, or really bad at it. This means that the good melee armies can wipe the floor with bad melee armies if they manage to get into range, which leads GW to overcompensate by making shooting armies hyperspecialized at preventing CC armies from ever getting into contact.