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At what point value do these units become "okay, fair, balanced, acceptable" to play at?

Should these units be showing up in 1,000 pt games? Because for the sake of getting some games in and getting use to the rules and mechanics of the game me and a friend played several games at 1,000 pts.

The army that was using the Lord of War vs the army that wasn't for the sake of just learning the game is fine but as far as balance and quality of the game it was pretty derp.

Anyone care to shed some light on this for me as we venture out and play at public places so we don't show up and look like idiots? Thanks

It really depends on the unit in question. A Baneblade in a 1250 point game is going to have a different impact than a Wraithknight. In general I think 1500 is the point where super heavies can start to pop up but its usually a good idea to check with your opponent before hand. A lot of armies or lists don't have the tools to handle T8 GMCs or Super Heavy Walkers like Knights. Also some people prefer to not play against super heavies and would rather play against standard infantry, tanks, etc.

 Vankraken wrote:
It really depends on the unit in question. A Baneblade in a 1250 point game is going to have a different impact than a Wraithknight. In general I think 1500 is the point where super heavies can start to pop up but its usually a good idea to check with your opponent before hand. A lot of armies or lists don't have the tools to handle T8 GMCs or Super Heavy Walkers like Knights. Also some people prefer to not play against super heavies and would rather play against standard infantry, tanks, etc.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. It was a Wraith Knight in a 1,000 pt game for our particular situation. I'll let my friend know that he's gonna have to check before hand with his opponents if they are okay with him fielding that model.

Therein lies the problem.

The unit is completely legal at X number of points. But certain vehicles/creatures etc. can quickly unbalance the game and make for a crap time. As such it is common courtesy in casual gaming to check with your opponents.

It's not required, but it's also not required that someone play him - if they don't like the idea.

I would say 1500 or up and really only if you let your buddy know. Otherwise, he may be pretty sore and not want to play you again.

Idealy speaking, legally built armies at any points level should be balanced against each other. In practice, however, quite a few armies cannot function below certain point levels, or thrive at specific point levels and above. If you feel that your army cannot tackle certain units at the decided points level, play bigger games. Always talk with you opponent before playing a pick up game, so you are both on the same page for expectations. Try to avoid editing your opponent's list, as you may face the same editing from a future opponent.

That said, not all Lords of War are equal. The catagory really should be subdivided into "Heroes" and "Superheavies". Personally, I enjoy taking a character LoW at 1500 and higher, and a superheavy at over 1500. Others enjoy playing an all superheavy army at 750 and above. So, talk it out. Set your expectations before you are surprised on turn 1.

SJ

 jreilly89 wrote:
I would say 1500 or up and really only if you let your buddy know. Otherwise, he may be pretty sore and not want to play you again.

It's my friend who is playing the WK, not me. But I get what your saying..just trying to figure out a few things before we go out and play other people.

In it's original incarnation (30k) the Lord of War slot had two restrictions to keep things balanced:
1. Not below 2000pts
2. Cannot cost more than 25% of the army total.

I think GW was stupid to discard those restrictions.

 Gashrog wrote:
In it's original incarnation (30k) the Lord of War slot had two restrictions to keep things balanced:
1. Not below 2000pts
2. Cannot cost more than 25% of the army total.

I think GW was stupid to discard those restrictions.

I agree with this idea, but I find it can still work in 1850 as long as your opponent is able to match your super heavies. I had a fairly close game recently which involved a knight on both sides. Unfortunately for me, his biker brigade was cleaning up where his knight wasn't. But in the end nearly all our units were expendable and neither could actually hurt the knight.
I ended up ramming my knight into his and they duked it out that way. It was pretty much the only way either of us was going to gain any advantage. After that assault, turn 5 was over and it didn't continue. So we ended a stalemate.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Idealy speaking, legally built armies at any points level should be balanced against each other. In practice, however, quite a few armies cannot function below certain point levels, or thrive at specific point levels and above. If you feel that your army cannot tackle certain units at the decided points level, play bigger games. Always talk with you opponent before playing a pick up game, so you are both on the same page for expectations. Try to avoid editing your opponent's list, as you may face the same editing from a future opponent.

It's nature of game that certain units will be better at certain enviroments. That's why truly balanced points are 100% impossibility.

Even humble CHIMERA can be hell of a monster at 400 pts games.

As Elbows mentioned, some units that are legal to take in low points games are just too strong at those levels. Example:

I was playing a game against a new player this weekend. All he had was the Dark Angels portion of the DV box set, which came to 750 points. He wanted to take on my Necrons, so I started building my list. I realized with horror that I was fully capable of taking Illuminor Szeras , two groups of 5 Immortals, a Monolith, and a C'Tan Shard of the Nightbringer at that points level. I decided I didn't want this guy to have such a bad experience so early in his 40k career, so I opted instead to bring Warriors and a generic Overlord with two units of Wraiths (they really aren't that bad outside of the Canoptek Harvest). I still ended up winning 6-5, but we both had a lot more fun that way.

We then decided to come up with a scenario (he wanted to try his lucky against the Monolith and C'Tan), so we decided to do those two models versus his army (750pts vs 440pts). All he had to do to "win" was keep his two HQs alive until extraction arrived at the end of turn three. It was close, but he made it. He actually managed to bring down the Monolith with his Terminators and he got the C'Tan down to 2 wounds. It was an absolute blast!

And now to turn my ramblings into a coherent (and relevant) thought:

GMCs/Superheavy probably shouldn't be used in games below at least 1500 points. There just aren't enough ways to deal with them below that. If someone just wants to use their cool model, try to come up with a scenario like the one I described. You still get to use your toy, but there isn't as much of a "must win" feel, so the experience will be more enjoyable for both participants.

 EnTyme wrote:
As Elbows mentioned, some units that are legal to take in low points games are just too strong at those levels. Example:

I was playing a game against a new player this weekend. All he had was the Dark Angels portion of the DV box set, which came to 750 points. He wanted to take on my Necrons, so I started building my list. I realized with horror that I was fully capable of taking Illuminor Szeras , two groups of 5 Immortals, a Monolith, and a C'Tan Shard of the Nightbringer at that points level. I decided I didn't want this guy to have such a bad experience so early in his 40k career, so I opted instead to bring Warriors and a generic Overlord with two units of Wraiths (they really aren't that bad outside of the Canoptek Harvest). I still ended up winning 6-5, but we both had a lot more fun that way.

We then decided to come up with a scenario (he wanted to try his lucky against the Monolith and C'Tan), so we decided to do those two models versus his army (750pts vs 440pts). All he had to do to "win" was keep his two HQs alive until extraction arrived at the end of turn three. It was close, but he made it. He actually managed to bring down the Monolith with his Terminators and he got the C'Tan down to 2 wounds. It was an absolute blast!

And now to turn my ramblings into a coherent (and relevant) thought:

GMCs/Superheavy probably shouldn't be used in games below at least 1500 points. There just aren't enough ways to deal with them below that. If someone just wants to use their cool model, try to come up with a scenario like the one I described. You still get to use your toy, but there isn't as much of a "must win" feel, so the experience will be more enjoyable for both participants.

That's awesome, way to go! I do agree that curb stomping new players isn't the best approach, as it can shut them off 40K rather quickly.

I think the most important quantifier is your group. Do they frenquently use them? If yes, then it's ok to use yours. if they don't, it's better to ask before even building lists if it's ok to bring one.

Down here we don't even use flyers under 1000p. LoWs (SHV/GMC), probably only above 2000p (one player has a Knight, but he rather paint than play; other just bought a Revenant Titan).

But the 30k limitation are a pretty good start. Also, LoW heroes (Thraka and others) are completely ok in low point games.

Your group is the key here and what they accept. In my group we always have arranged games, I live 300 miles away from them so I let them know I am coming in advance, and we always agree before hand, "are we bringing lords of war and how many?"

Vector's note about the 30k rule is pretty good as well. No LoW below 2k and that one cant be more than 25% of the total force. I tend to follow this one in my games(I should since I play 30k).

It is worth noting that even in 30k there are Knight armies and LoW armies like baneblade companies and Ordinatus detachments.

I think that with the popularity of 1850 point lists, a LOW or Superheavy choice is pretty reasonable....and I say that, because everyone I know plays 1850, and most batreps on Youtube tend to be that point value. Below 1850 is a bit scary though.

Thank you all for the input so far. It's given me a lot of perspective on the matter.

I don't like "tailoring" my list to deal with something specific. I feel like I would have to do exactly this to handle such units, and at low point games this just doesn't appeal to me..at all.

I'm more of the "Hey let's do a 1850, 2000 pt game and discuss if we will use T8 GMC/Super Heavies" type of guy.

That 30k rule makes a lot of sense to me. A standard so to speak..if the game is 2000+ pts, well then you know for sure those units can show up!

If players agree, then they should play whatever they like. If players want Warhounds at 1,000 pts, they should do so.