Deepstriking Ork fortifications ?

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**oldzoggy**

I know the draft FAQ doesn't allow scouting fortifications but deepstriking isn't scouting right.
Suppose you fielded a fortification as part of a Great WAAAAAAGH detachment ( that you are allowed to field by the new draft FAQ)
This strange detachment does all sorts of things you don't want but it also grants units on a 6+ the deepstike special rule. ( Fluff text they are telleported on the field. I started to like this idea more and more after reading the The Beast Arises series. )
Would this allow you to keep fortifications who rolled a 6 in reserve and could you deep strike them anywhere on the board later on ?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the follow-up question could units ( of the same detachment) be inside of those fortifications while it is in reserve / while it is deep striking.

**ProwlerPC**

Lol the rule does say all nonflyer units. Troops get a +1 to the roll. No other restrictions. It seems RAW it's doable. I'd expect it would be restricted. Dropping an Imperial Bastion with a bunch of Manz behind enemy lines would be a bit cheesy.

Follow up answer: Vehicles that are transports and have deeps trike can take troops so the buildings would be able as well. BRB states that building be treated as vehicles (albeit with no movement) unless otherwise specified.

**DeathReaper**

You can not deep strike a fortification.

There have been several threads on this.

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule" (Special Rules chapter, Deep Strike section).

The fortification is not a model so it can not deep strike (Even though it acts as a unit because claimed fortifications act as units).

**ProwlerPC**

? Not a model?

They look like plastic models to me, not tvs or coffee machines etc...

I'll toss in an example of the BRB calling the models too.

Page 112
"Some very large buildings consist of two or more smaller buildings joined together. When this is the case, it will be clearly stated on the model's terrain datasheet.

..........stuff about moving from one to the other...........In all other regards, the buildings that make up the multi-part building are treated as separate models."

**Charistoph**

DeathReaper wrote:
You can not deep strike a fortification.

There have been several threads on this.

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule" (Special Rules chapter, Deep Strike section).

The fortification is not a model so it can not deep strike (Even though it acts as a unit because claimed fortifications act as units).

More importantly, it is not a unit until the game starts.

**Glitcha**

You used to be able to deep strike a bastion in planet strike. That was fun. If you want to do it now, I think you would need both units, the building and the ladz inside, to have the deep strike rules.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
You can not deep strike a fortification.

There have been several threads on this.

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule" (Special Rules chapter, Deep Strike section).

The fortification is not a model so it can not deep strike (Even though it acts as a unit because claimed fortifications act as units).

More importantly, it is not a unit until the game starts.

you might want to lay off da squig juice

**foto69man**

Good thing Fortifications have the type: Terrain..... So yeah that solves that one. Should have always, but people ignore it?

**Charistoph**

foto69man wrote:
Good thing Fortifications have the type: Terrain..... So yeah that solves that one. Should have always, but people ignore it?

Not a complete disqualifier. At least, not alone.

Units are allowed to be put in Deep Strike Reserves during Deployment, just like Fortifications are placed on the board during Deployment. However, since Fortifications do not become units until after Deployment, they cannot be put in Deep Strike Reserves.

Thus either placed on the board during Deployment or considered Destroyed.

**DeathReaper**

ProwlerPC wrote:
? Not a model?

They look like plastic models to me, not tvs or coffee machines etc...

I'll toss in an example of the BRB calling the models too.

Page 112
"Some very large buildings consist of two or more smaller buildings joined together. When this is the case, it will be clearly stated on the model's terrain datasheet.

..........stuff about moving from one to the other...........In all other regards, the buildings that make up the multi-part building are treated as separate models."

If it is a model what is its unit type?

"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section. " (Models and Units chapter, Other Important Information section).

It does not have a unit type then it is not a model as defined by the 40k rules.

Charistoph wrote:
More importantly, it is not a unit until the game starts.

And that is reason #2 that this can not happen.

**Charistoph**

DeathReaper wrote:
If it is a model what is its unit type?

"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section. " (Models and Units chapter, Other Important Information section).

It does not have a unit type then it is not a model as defined by the 40k rules.

It has unit type of Terrain. The advanced rules for Buildings override the basic rules you just described just as Vehicles override numerous other aspects of being Infantry. By the game declaring it as a unit, it automatically adjusts the game to fit this paradigm.

**ProwlerPC**

DeathReaper wrote:
ProwlerPC wrote:
? Not a model?

They look like plastic models to me, not tvs or coffee machines etc...

I'll toss in an example of the BRB calling the models too.

Page 112
"Some very large buildings consist of two or more smaller buildings joined together. When this is the case, it will be clearly stated on the model's terrain datasheet.

..........stuff about moving from one to the other...........In all other regards, the buildings that make up the multi-part building are treated as separate models."

If it is a model what is its unit type?

"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section. " (Models and Units chapter, Other Important Information section).

It does not have a unit type then it is not a model as defined by the 40k rules.

Charistoph wrote:
More importantly, it is not a unit until the game starts.

And that is reason #2 that this can not happen.

The Deep Strike rule in Ghazzy''s supplement doesn't specify a unit type. BRB specifies that building's are transports without movement so your point against this is irrelevant. However, If the fortification doesn't count as a unit until the game starts then we have the restriction that covers this potential cheesiness rather then having to resort to logical fallacies and twists to do it. Personally I'm no fan to the idea of a deep striking building but still I'm going to have to look for the part that specifies a building that's part of a players foc isn't a unit till the game starts. Also I should see if all other units can fall under this interpretation and if not then what exactly is said to differentiate the units in this scenario. Or if maybe all this is pulled out of a gak hole.

**DeathReaper**

Charistoph wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
If it is a model what is its unit type?

"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section. " (Models and Units chapter, Other Important Information section).

It does not have a unit type then it is not a model as defined by the 40k rules.

It has unit type of Terrain. The advanced rules for Buildings override the basic rules you just described just as Vehicles override numerous other aspects of being Infantry. By the game declaring it as a unit, it automatically adjusts the game to fit this paradigm.

Really? Unit type terrain??? (There is no such thing, you made that up).

"...which we discuss in the Unit Types section."

I do not see terrain unit type in the "Unit Types section."

Therefore your argument is false.

**Charistoph**

ProwlerPC wrote:The Deep Strike rule in Ghazzy''s supplement doesn't specify a unit type. BRB specifies that building's are transports without movement so your point against this is irrelevant. However, If the fortification doesn't count as a unit until the game starts then we have the restriction that covers this potential cheesiness rather then having to resort to logical fallacies and twists to do it. Personally I'm no fan to the idea of a deep striking building but still I'm going to have to look for the part that specifies a building that's part of a players foc isn't a unit till the game starts. Also I should see if all other units can fall under this interpretation and if not then what exactly is said to differentiate the units in this scenario. Or if maybe all this is pulled out of a gak hole.

In the Battlefield Terrain section, Buildings, Claiming Buildings on page 112.

* At the start of the game, all buildings that were taken as part of a player’s army are ‘claimed’ by the owning player, whilst all other buildings are ‘unclaimed’.
* A claimed building is a unit in the controlling player’s army and will remain so, even if it later becomes unoccupied, until the building is either destroyed or claimed by an enemy.

So, they are your units at the start of the game, but nothing qualifies it as such before then.

DeathReaper wrote:Really? Unit type terrain??? (There is no such thing, you made that up).

"...which we discuss in the Unit Types section."

I do not see terrain unit type in the "Unit Types section."

Therefore your argument is false.

Are owned buildings units? Yes, or no?

The quote I referenced above says they are, so they have to be units.

Do all units have to have a unit type? If so, then they are unit type: "Buildings" which share aspects of Terrain and Vehicles which is imposed by their rules. If not, then the argument that they do not have a unit type carries zero weight in this discussion.

**RedNoak**

Charistoph wrote:

In the Battlefield Terrain section, Buildings, Claiming Buildings on page 112.

* At the start of the game, all buildings that were taken as part of a player’s army are ‘claimed’ by the owning player, whilst all other buildings are ‘unclaimed’.
* A claimed building is a unit in the controlling player’s army and will remain so, even if it later becomes unoccupied, until the building is either destroyed or claimed by an enemy.

So, they are your units at the start of the game, but nothing qualifies it as such before then.

isnt "before deployment" after "at the start of the game"?

**Charistoph**

RedNoak wrote:
isnt "before deployment" after "at the start of the game"?

Nope. The Start of the Game cannot happen until after Deployment. Too many things are reliant on Deployment being before Game Start to function otherwise, such as Independent Characters and Deep Strike.

**RedNoak**

could you direct me to the relevant rulebook page? cleary i need to refresh my memory

**ProwlerPC**

Thank you. Page 112 does specify that unit status occurs when the game begins and page 17 clearly states that anything that happens "before the game begins" will occur before deployment making deployment the moment when the game begins.

**DeathReaper**

Charistoph wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:Really? Unit type terrain??? (There is no such thing, you made that up).

"...which we discuss in the Unit Types section."

I do not see terrain unit type in the "Unit Types section."

Therefore your argument is false.

Are owned buildings units? Yes, or no?

You know owned buildings are units as per the rules... silly question.

The quote I referenced above says they are, so they have to be units.

Why wouldn't they be units? But they are not MODELS...

Do all units have to have a unit type?

No, All MODELS have a unit type as per my quote. units may or may not have a unit type.

If so, then they are unit type: "Buildings" which share aspects of Terrain and Vehicles which is imposed by their rules. If not, then the argument that they do not have a unit type carries zero weight in this discussion.

There is no such thing as unit type: "Buildings".

The rules state: "In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section. " (Models and Units chapter, Other Important Information section (Emphasis mine)).

I do not see terrain unit type in the "Unit Types section." Do you see terrain in the "Unit Types section."?

if not then it does not have a unit type.

**ProwlerPC**

In the buildings section it states that they are to be treated as transport vehicles with no movement.

No doubt this means the opposite to you but it's worth repeating anyways.

In the buildings section it states that they are to be treated as transport vehicles with no movement.

I understand this can be confusing, even scary, I get it but I think 3 times is the lucky charm.

In the buildings section it states that they are to be treated as transport vehicles with no movement.

**DeathReaper**

ProwlerPC wrote:
In the buildings section it states that they are to be treated as transport vehicles with no movement.

No doubt this means the opposite to you but it's worth repeating anyways.

In the buildings section it states that they are to be treated as transport vehicles with no movement.

I understand this can be confusing, even scary, I get it but I think 3 times is the lucky charm.

In the buildings section it states that they are to be treated as transport vehicles with no movement.

Citation needed. (P.S. what it actually says is "Buildings of all types use aspects of the Transport vehicle rules. The main difference between buildings and actual vehicles is that they can’t move, they can be controlled by either side and units from either side can embark upon them.")

They use Aspects of the Transport vehicle rules

However, they are still not models.

ProwlerPC wrote:
...it's worth repeating anyways.

They are still not models.

ProwlerPC wrote:
I understand this can be confusing, even scary, I get it but I think 3 times is the lucky charm.

They are still not models.

**Alpharius**

RULE #1 IS MANDATORY!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp

**Charistoph**

DeathReaper wrote:
The quote I referenced above says they are, so they have to be units.
Why wouldn't they be units? But they are not MODELS...

Do all units have to have a unit type?

No, All MODELS have a unit type as per my quote. units may or may not have a unit type.

If so, then they are unit type: "Buildings" which share aspects of Terrain and Vehicles which is imposed by their rules. If not, then the argument that they do not have a unit type carries zero weight in this discussion.

There is no such thing as unit type: "Buildings".

The rules state: "In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section. " (Models and Units chapter, Other Important Information section (Emphasis mine)).

I do not see terrain unit type in the "Unit Types section." Do you see terrain in the "Unit Types section."?

if not then it does not have a unit type.

Then let us look at the definition of units.

FORMING A UNIT
The models that make up your Warhammer 40,000 army must be organised into ‘units’.

Units
Warriors tend to band together to fight in squads, teams, sections or similarly named groups – individuals do not normally go wandering off on their own on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium for obvious reasons! In Warhammer 40,000, we represent this by grouping models together into units. A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine or a rampaging monster, is also considered to be a unit in its own right.

Unit Coherency
Units fight in loose groups with gaps between each model. This gives the troopers (or the alien enemies of Humanity) the freedom to move over difficult terrain quickly, and enables them to take advantage of such things as minor folds in the ground, scrub, and other small features, to shelter from enemy fire. The different elements of the unit have to stay together to remain an effective fighting force. This is detailed more fully in the Movement section.

So, here we have a definition that units are composed of models. Where do Buildings say they are units that are not models?

And then there is the Datasheet Legend:

6. Unit Type: This refers to the unit type rules in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. For example, a unit may be classed as Infantry, Cavalry or Vehicle, which will subject it to a number of rules regarding movement, shooting, assaults, etc.

Admittedly, everything listed in the Unit Type section of a datasheet is listed by model, though. Interesting that the legend doesn't refer to the models.

**oldzoggy**

Ac k sorry guys I did not want to start that whole " are Buildings units discussion" of a while back. It gets heated and bloated way to fast. Does anyone have a Team A, Team B summary of it. Just to skip the passionate are they units or not discussion part that is already fought out in the past.

**Charistoph**

oldzoggy wrote:
Ac k sorry guys I did not want to start that whole " are Buildings units discussion" of a while back. It gets heated and bloated way to fast. Does anyone have a Team A, Team B summary of it. Just to skip the passionate are they units or not discussion part that is already fought out in the past.

It pretty much started for the same reason. Can a Building use {X separate Deploying Method}?

The answer is no, because at the point of deployment, they are not units.

As for the Buildings are Units argument, there is not question that they can be, but is really rather pointless unless you can point out where this has any actual bearing.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ProwlerPC wrote:
Thank you. Page 112 does specify that unit status occurs when the game begins and page 17 clearly states that anything that happens "before the game begins" will occur before deployment making deployment the moment when the game begins.

Not true or possible. If that was the case, then nothing can Deep Strike, nor can ICs be joined to a unit in Reserves.

Deployment is just being referenced as the last step in game setup before the game begins. Deployment is not being referenced as the actual game start. It cannot be without breaking a few other rules.

For the case from Deep Strike:

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.

For the case from Independent Characters:

An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in Reserve, by you informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.

To tie it in, from Reserves:

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later.

**DeathReaper**

Charistoph wrote:

Then let us look at the definition of units.

FORMING A UNIT
The models that make up your Warhammer 40,000 army must be organised into ‘units’.

Units
Warriors tend to band together to fight in squads, teams, sections or similarly named groups – individuals do not normally go wandering off on their own on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium for obvious reasons! In Warhammer 40,000, we represent this by grouping models together into units. A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine or a rampaging monster, is also considered to be a unit in its own right.

Unit Coherency
Units fight in loose groups with gaps between each model. This gives the troopers (or the alien enemies of Humanity) the freedom to move over difficult terrain quickly, and enables them to take advantage of such things as minor folds in the ground, scrub, and other small features, to shelter from enemy fire. The different elements of the unit have to stay together to remain an effective fighting force. This is detailed more fully in the Movement section.

So, here we have a definition that units are composed of models. Where do Buildings say they are units that are not models?

Units are composed of models, and ALL models have a unit type...

Therefore it is taken from the fact that a building does not have a unit type. we know all models have a unit type. No unit type? then it is not a model as per the 40k Rules.

And then there is the Datasheet Legend:

6. Unit Type: This refers to the unit type rules in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. For example, a unit may be classed as Infantry, Cavalry or Vehicle, which will subject it to a number of rules regarding movement, shooting, assaults, etc.

Admittedly, everything listed in the Unit Type section of a datasheet is listed by model, though. Interesting that the legend doesn't refer to the models.

Also there is no Unit Type: Building in the Unit Types section.

Therefore if it does not have a unit type it is not a model.

We know from the claimed building rules that a fortification can be a unit and that they use aspects of the vehicle rules, but that still does not make them Models as far as 40k is concerned.

**Charistoph**

DeathReaper wrote:
Therefore if it does not have a unit type it is not a model.

We know from the claimed building rules that a fortification can be a unit and that they use aspects of the vehicle rules, but that still does not make them Models as far as 40k is concerned.

Where does it state that if it does not have a unit type, it is not a model?

Or failing that, where does it state that Buildings are units not made up of models?

**warhead01**

Question. regarding page 130 Hard Back Rule Book.
Under fortifications it says, if it is taken as part of an army then they are deployed using the rules as the other models.
What's stopping that from being subject to Deepstrike?
I can't understand why in a game with "unbound armies" this would be an issue at all.
The Ork player would just have to roll a 6 for prior to setting up their army.

**DeathReaper**

Charistoph wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
Therefore if it does not have a unit type it is not a model.

We know from the claimed building rules that a fortification can be a unit and that they use aspects of the vehicle rules, but that still does not make them Models as far as 40k is concerned.

Where does it state that if it does not have a unit type, it is not a model?

Or failing that, where does it state that Buildings are units not made up of models?

In the quote i posted, here it is again.

"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry ..." (Models and Units chapter, Other Important Information section (Emphasis mine)).

Right here it states that each model will have a unit type. So all models have a unit type. Buildings do not have a unit type so they are not models as far as the rules are concerned.

We know that units are made up of models because of this: "A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together"Forming a unit section).But claimed fortifications are a strange case in that they are a unit but they are not a model because they do not have a unit type.

warhead01 wrote:
Question. regarding page 130 Hard Back Rule Book.
Under fortifications it says, if it is taken as part of an army then they are deployed using the rules as the other models.
What's stopping that from being subject to Deepstrike?
I can't understand why in a game with "unbound armies" this would be an issue at all.
The Ork player would just have to roll a 6 for prior to setting up their army.

Because Deepstrike applies to models. a fortification is not a model.

**warhead01**

So for instance your saying that a bastion from Stronghold assault
Which says, composition 1 imperial Bastion, terrain type Medium Building, isn't a model? Or isn't a Unit because it doesn't say the word Model or unit? but says terrain type?

I have to find this amusing, not the reasons against Deepstriking a Bastion but that it's an issue given the new Space Marine powers.

**Happyjew**

warhead01 wrote:
Question. regarding page 130 Hard Back Rule Book.
Under fortifications it says, if it is taken as part of an army then they are deployed using the rules as the other models.
What's stopping that from being subject to Deepstrike?
I can't understand why in a game with "unbound armies" this would be an issue at all.
The Ork player would just have to roll a 6 for prior to setting up their army.

The roll is made before the game. At that point, the fortification is not a unit and thus not eligible.

warhead01 wrote:
So for instance your saying that a bastion from Stronghold assault
Which says, composition 1 imperial Bastion, terrain type Medium Building, isn't a model? Or isn't a Unit because it doesn't say the word Model or unit? but says terrain type?

I have to find this amusing, not the reasons against Deepstriking a Bastion but that it's an issue given the new Space Marine powers.

It is not a unit until claimed (which would be at the start of the game if purchased as part of an army). While it is a model (in the generic, made of plastic/metal/resin to resemble something else) it is not a model in the rules sense (with a profile and unit type).