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Alright, tell me what you guys think.

HQs:

Ahriman
ML 3 sorcerer with force sword and bolt pistol, sigil of corruption, mark of tzeentch, veterans of the long war, and meltabombs

Troops:

2 - 10 man Chaos space marines squads with veterans of the long war
Aspiring champions with power sword and bolt pistol
7 marines each with CCW and boltpistols
2 marines each with flamers
Each squad has a rhino

2 - 5 man thousand sons squads
Each has an aspiring sorcerer with bolt pistol and force sword
Each has a rhino, one of which has a dozer blade

Fast Attack:

1 - 5 man raptor squad with veterans of the long war.
Aspiring champion has a combi-plasma.
2 raptors have plasma guns.

Heavy Support:

5 man havoc squad with veterans of the long war and icon of vengeance
Aspiring champion has combimelta and meltabombs
The other four guys have melta guns
Rhino with dozer blade

2 - 5 man havoc squads with veterans of the long war
Aspiring champion with bolt pistol and CCW
4 havocs each with lascannons

How do you think this list would actually do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be clear:

The 2 psykers are going to be chilling out with the havocs.

1) Rhino's don't usually make the best transports for assault squads as they are not assault vehicles. Those flamer squads will have to sit around taking front-line firepower for one turn before charging. Rhinos cater more towards CSM's strength of short range fire power. Roll up, get out, rapid fire, salvo, melta, flamer, etc. Reconsider those CCWs.
2) Find the points for dozer blades on both TS rhinos, it can't be hard with all the upgrades you're running. Its worth its points.
3) If your 5-man havoc squad is taking a leadership test, is what is left of the squad really worth spending 35 points on to help pass the roll? This is an icon better used on larger squads.
4) You say ahriman and the sorcerer are going with the havocs. If you mean the lascannon ones this is a mistake as most witchfires are short to medium range, and those havoc squads offer little protection. If you mean the melta havocs, this is also a mistake because Ahriman is fearless so you are wasting points on that icon of vengeance as he gives fearless to the squad.

I personally think this list will do very poorly, but I think you can make it decent, and more importantly yours, with some revisions.
Think about what you want each squad to do, and if another unit might do it better. You have to decide, for instance, If maybe a tri-las predator is a better option over your havocs, or if bikers would make better plasma gunners than your raptors.

Best of luck

 changerofways wrote:
1) Rhino's don't usually make the best transports for assault squads as they are not assault vehicles. Those flamer squads will have to sit around taking front-line firepower for one turn before charging. Rhinos cater more towards CSM's strength of short range fire power. Roll up, get out, rapid fire, salvo, melta, flamer, etc. Reconsider those CCWs.

I am seriously considering this. That said, I'm thinking that the aspiring champions should still have power weapons. Agree or disagree?

3) If your 5-man havoc squad is taking a leadership test, is what is left of the squad really worth spending 35 points on to help pass the roll? This is an icon better used on larger squads.

This is a good point. Fair enough.

4) You say ahriman and the sorcerer are going with the havocs. If you mean the lascannon ones this is a mistake as most witchfires are short to medium range, and those havoc squads offer little protection. If you mean the melta havocs, this is also a mistake because Ahriman is fearless so you are wasting points on that icon of vengeance as he gives fearless to the squad.

Actually, I don't really plan on using Ahriman for the witchfires. I plan on using 3 primaris powers on both psykers: psychic shriek, tzeentch's firestorm and prescience. Instead of relying on Ahriman to put out enough dakka every turn to justify his points cost, I'm going to use him to position the havocs (vis-a-vis his warlord trait) where I want them and use the psykers to make sure that those lascannons (or whatever heavy weapon I actually end up using) actually hit (via prescience). Something gets close enough to threaten them? They'd better have a high leadership. That's a lot of psychic shrieks coming their way.

Think about what you want each squad to do, and if another unit might do it better. You have to decide, for instance, If maybe a tri-las predator is a better option over your havocs, or if bikers would make better plasma gunners than your raptors.

Are bikers "fluffy" for thousand sons, or no?

 Traditio wrote:

 changerofways wrote:
1) Rhino's don't usually make the best transports for assault squads as they are not assault vehicles. Those flamer squads will have to sit around taking front-line firepower for one turn before charging. Rhinos cater more towards CSM's strength of short range fire power. Roll up, get out, rapid fire, salvo, melta, flamer, etc. Reconsider those CCWs.

I am seriously considering this. That said, I'm thinking that the aspiring champions should still have power weapons. Agree or disagree?

I wouldn't. They are too expensive.

 Traditio wrote:

4) You say ahriman and the sorcerer are going with the havocs. If you mean the lascannon ones this is a mistake as most witchfires are short to medium range, and those havoc squads offer little protection. If you mean the melta havocs, this is also a mistake because Ahriman is fearless so you are wasting points on that icon of vengeance as he gives fearless to the squad.

Actually, I don't really plan on using Ahriman for the witchfires. I plan on using 3 primaris powers on both psykers: psychic shriek, tzeentch's firestorm and prescience. Instead of relying on Ahriman to put out enough dakka every turn to justify his points cost, I'm going to use him to position the havocs (vis-a-vis his warlord trait) where I want them and use the psykers to make sure that those lascannons (or whatever heavy weapon I actually end up using) actually hit (via prescience). Something gets close enough to threaten them? They'd better have a high leadership. That's a lot of psychic shrieks coming their way.

I'm sorry to rain on your chaos parade, but Ahriman and sorcerers cannot take divination powers. A sorcerer from the Crimson Slaughter can, but only if he buys the Balestar relic. I would stick Ahriman in one of the infiltrating rhinos.

 Traditio wrote:

Think about what you want each squad to do, and if another unit might do it better. You have to decide, for instance, If maybe a tri-las predator is a better option over your havocs, or if bikers would make better plasma gunners than your raptors.

Are bikers "fluffy" for thousand sons, or no?

Force swords are a no-no. Either take the Axe so you're always AP2, since the 3++ or 4++ gives you a reasonable chance at surviving until I1 or if you're considering rolling Biomancy, the force staff lets you beat serious face if you roll Iron arm (suddenly becomes AP2) or Warp speed (I7).

Regardless, the higher strength means that the increased rate of wounds on high toughness models pays off more than the AP3 on the sword.

Plasma guns on raptors are bad, doubly so in a TSons list. 1) Plasma guns are rappidfire, so no charging after you shoot and 2) you've got insufficient anti tank, melta guns are assault weapons and fill the vital tank tank role.

Stop putting VotLW on everything, it's not even remotely worth the points.

The 2nd sorceror doesn't require the MoT, Ahriman already makes TSons troops and the Tz table is terrible. Losing a masterly level for +1 invo isn't worth it if you're goign to be hiding at the back of the board.

You've got 5 rhinos in an era where every second marine army is rocking 11 odd rhino hulls. Don't expect them to last past the bottom of turn 2.

IoV is very expensive for a 5 man squad, doubly so since you've apparently given them VotLW as well for some reason.

Suggest trading one of the las havok units for auto havoks. Saves 40 points and gives volume of shots for use against light vehicles and aircraft (since you don't have any AA).

MSU TSons isn't good, the sorceror is grossly overpriced and 5 guys will drop to bolterfire quicker than you can blink.

Basically, you've take a bunch of the worst units in the dex and put them together. The list is pretty terrible and IMHO, not much in keeping with a thousand sons list.

 Drasius wrote:
Force swords are a no-no. Either take the Axe so you're always AP2, since the 3++ or 4++ gives you a reasonable chance at surviving until I1 or if you're considering rolling Biomancy, the force staff lets you beat serious face if you roll Iron arm (suddenly becomes AP2) or Warp speed (I7).

That sounds like a good idea. I want to keep force swords on the thousand sons sorcerers for the simple reason that it matches the AP of the bolter fire.

Either axe or staff on the HQ sorcerer sounds like a good idea, though.

Plasma guns on raptors are bad, doubly so in a TSons list. 1) Plasma guns are rappidfire, so no charging after you shoot and 2) you've got insufficient anti tank, melta guns are assault weapons and fill the vital tank tank role.

Noted. I think I'll do this.

Stop putting VotLW on everything, it's not even remotely worth the points.

It was primarily a "theme" decision.

The 2nd sorceror doesn't require the MoT, Ahriman already makes TSons troops and the Tz table is terrible. Losing a masterly level for +1 invo isn't worth it if you're goign to be hiding at the back of the board.

2 points:

1. Again, it's a theme decision. Since it's a thousand sons list, it only makes sense for the sorcerer to have that mark.

2. Given the fact that I can't cast divination with the sorcerer, he'll probably end up in a rhino with 9 chaos space marines. Updates to come later. So he actually will need the higher invuln.

IoV is very expensive for a 5 man squad, doubly so since you've apparently given them VotLW as well for some reason.

My thinking was that I don't want them to get pinned or shaken en route to whatever it is that they're trying to melta. VotLW should be enough, though. At that point, they're only pinning or getting shaken on 11s and 12s (a 1/12 possibility).

Suggest trading one of the las havok units for auto havoks. Saves 40 points and gives volume of shots for use against light vehicles and aircraft (since you don't have any AA).

I thought of this and will probably go that route.

Basically, you've take a bunch of the worst units in the dex and put them together. The list is pretty terrible and IMHO, not much in keeping with a thousand sons list.

What would you propose to make it "fluffier"?

If you keep VotLW on the Havocs and drop the IoV you'll be in good shape. The 5 point boost to make them Ld 9 (Ld 10 with the champion) makes a big difference in passing/failing morale checks.

Since you're handing VotLW out anyways, you should just call it a Black Legion detachment instead of vanilla CSM. This would let you take Chosen as troops. And I think by dropping the IoV you could make that melta Havoc squad Chosen instead for the point difference. They have an extra attack and will be ObSec, nice bonuses for doing no extra work.

Ok, here's the revised list:

HQs:

Ahriman
ML 3 sorcerer with force axe and bolt pistol, sigil of corruption, mark of tzeentch, veterans of the long war, and meltabombs

Troops:

2 - 9 man Chaos space marines squads with veterans of the long war
Aspiring champions with boltgun and combi-bolter respectively (I couldn't think of anything else to do with the extra 3 points)
7 marines each with boltguns
1 marine in each with flamers
Each squad has a rhinos

2 - 5 man thousand sons squads
Each has an aspiring sorcerer with bolt pistol and force sword
Each has a rhino, one of which has a dozer blade

Fast Attack:

2 - 5 man raptor squads with veterans of the long war.
Aspiring champions have a combi-meltas and meltabombs
2 raptors in each have melta guns.

Heavy Support:

1 - 5 man havoc squad with veterans of the long war
Aspiring champion has combimelta and meltabombs
The other four guys have melta guns
Rhino with dozer blade

1 - 5 man havoc squad with veterans of the long war
Aspiring champion with bolt pistol and CCW
4 havocs each with lascannons

1 - 5 man havoc squad with veterans of the long war
Aspiring champion with bolt pistol and CCW
4 havocs each with autocannons

Ahriman and Sorcerer each go with a chaos space marine squad in rhino.

Seeing you are VotLW and all travelling in Rhinos... I think the idea of going Black Legion makes sense.
Plan on chosen with 2 meltas, plasma in each chosen squserAdd a combi-melta and blades and if you have the points add gargoyles to fit your fluffy theme.
The squads can stay inside and fire their two special weapons out of the rhinos

Something like

3 x 5 chosen w 2 meltas in a rhino
2 x 5 1k sons in a rhino
2 x 5raptors w flamer=melta (you do lack hoard control so I would want one unit or ,maybe combiflamers on each rhino
1 x 7 havoc w autocannons
1 x aegis defense line w or wo quad gun.

The big question is what you plan on using your sorcerers to do. If you are thinking biomancy tanks. Attach them to one of the chosen. Max this squad and add CCW and a power maul or 2 LC. If you are planning on a psychic scream. Max out one of your 1K sons and attach him to them. If you plan on a pink horror factory, put him back in the ADL with a 20 man cultist unit to sacrifice for heralds
I like a few meat shields in the havoc and I think the ADL is superior to the rhino with 48" range you don;t need them to move.

A unit I have used in my 1K Sons list with a lot of success is-
Sorcerer w/ MoT, disc, Melta bombs, Sigil of corruption, force staff, burning brand, and 3x mastery levels. I put him in a squad of 5 spawn.
Roll on Biomancy and hope for iron arm, endurance, warp speed, or even life leech.
Endurance is the best here, with iron arm a close second.
If you get lucky and roll doombolt off the tzeetch table along with endurance and iron arm- you have a VERY hard to kill unit that will slaughter a lot of units in a single round. That sorcerer with endurance on him and the spawn and iron arm on him is DEADLY in cc.

Alright: I've been tinkering with this list for a bit. Tell me what you guys think:

Ahriman

ML3 Sorcerer with VotLW, force axe, boltpistol, sigil of corruption and mark of tzeentch

1 - 5 man terminator squad with VotLW
4 have power fists
1 has a power weapon (either a sword or maul).

1 - 5 man chosen squad; VotLW
4 with flamers
Rhino with dozer blade

2 - 5 man thousand sons squads
Aspiring sorcerers have swords.
Rhinos

1 - 5 man Chaos Space Marine squad; VotLW
1 dude has a plasma gun
Rhino with dozer blade

2 - 5 man raptor squads with VotLW
Aspiring champions have combimeltas
2 raptors in each have meltas

1 - 5 man havoc squad with VotLW
4 dudes have meltaguns
Sarge has meltabombs
Rhino

1 - 5 man havoc squad with VotLW
4 dudes have lascannons

ML3 sorcerer goes with the flamer chosen.
Ahriman goes with the Chaos Space Marines squad.
Termies and raptors deepstrike.

ML3 Sorcerer and Ahriman both take the Psychic Shriek primaris power.

Termies are junk as anything but suicide melta, doubly so since you've not got any way to help them pass reserves, mitigate scatter or mishaps or make them able to charge from reserves.
Chosen are junk outside of Cypher's formation (and even then they're not great)
Small TSons squads are junk (so are large squads to be honest, but they're less terrible)
The 5 man CSM is also a waste since it's a single plasmagun and nothing else threatening, but I guess it might survive a little while since it's not worth shooting at when there's meltas and lascannons to shoot instead
Raptor champ should be the one with melta bombs instead of the havok sarge since he's not able to charge after he gets blown out of his rhino.
I think the points spent on VotLW is a waste too since with such small squads, they're all going to be dead before you need to take a morale check and you're not going to get into assault to get to use the hatred:marines portion.

Overall, a pretty terrible list with very little thousand sons flavour, more like a bunch of mech infantry with 2 small TSons squads and a pair of sorcs.

CSM is a trash dex, taking a large amount of terrible units doesn't make them any better, Everyone is gearing to deal with the free transports from gladius, you've got 5 rhinos and a bunch of non fearless, more expensive than vanilla marines with no benefits on foot and extremely limited guns that aren't str 4.

Nothing ignores cover outside of the flamers who have minimal range. Nothing really threatens MC's, at least not in the numbers you're packing (and they're the other half of the meta). You've got 1 infiltrating melta unit and then you're relying on DSing raptors for anti tank

If given enough turns, a single wraithknight would have a solid chance to singlehandedly beat your entire army.

Edit: There really is no excuse to ever write a CSM list without at least 1 baledrake in it.

Drasius wrote:Raptor champ should be the one with melta bombs instead of the havok sarge since he's not able to charge after he gets blown out of his rhino.

This was a transcriptional error on my part. In fact, both raptor champs have melta bombs.

Overall, a pretty terrible list with very little thousand sons flavour, more like a bunch of mech infantry with 2 small TSons squads and a pair of sorcs.

You never got around to answering me when I asked you this question the first time:

What would you add to make the list fluffier?

If given enough turns, a single wraithknight would have a solid chance to singlehandedly beat your entire army.

Between the 4 psychic shrieks per turn, the deepstriking melta and the lascannons, I think I would have a solid chance against a single wraithknight.

 Traditio wrote:
You never got around to answering me when I asked you this question the first time:

What would you add to make the list fluffier?

Between the 4 psychic shrieks per turn, the deepstriking melta and the lascannons, I think I would have a solid chance against a single wraithknight.

Less non-rubric marines, more rubrics, maybe some cultists, possibly some spawn, daemonically possessed vehicles, daemon allies, the cyclopian cabal. Remember that every member of the thousand sons legions is either a) a sorceror or b) a dust golem. Their only "mortal" troops are sorcerors and any cultists they have cultivated, maybe some renegade guardsmen.

Average result on 3 dice is 11. You'll probably fail to cast at least once, so that's 1.3 wounds after 5++ and fnp and you're getting charged the turn after you use it.
8 meltas, hitting on 3's, wounding on 4's, then FNP gets you ~1.2 wounds
4 las, hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's then FNP gets you ~0.8 wounds

3.3 wounds.

And that's assuming that you can fire all 8 meltas the same turn that you shriek. If he can lock himself in combat in your turn, you're pretty screwed. Heaven forbid that you infiltrate stuff to get him an earlier charge.

 Traditio wrote:
Alright: I've been tinkering with this list for a bit. Tell me what you guys think:

Ahriman

ML3 Sorcerer with VotLW, force axe, boltpistol, sigil of corruption and mark of tzeentch

Lose the MoT or else give the poor sod a Disc. 3++ vs. 4++ is not worth the cost of the mark, especially considering how it completely screws him over when generating his powers. Also, take the Force Staff on IC's since striking at I1 is suicide for an expensive character who's always forced to challenge all the time.
Also drop VotLW since it's a waste... Spend those pts on Melta bombs instead.
Oh and finally, give him a damned Spell Familiar!! This is the one huge advantage Chaos psykers have, and conveniently, it's the same cost as the otherwise atrocious MoT.

Oh, and for the love of Tzeentch, take Santic Daemonology on Ahriman!! Yes, yes he gets more risk of Perils, but PotW is pretty lame, and Santic has insane synergies with CSM's, especially Tzeentch. (and 3x Cleasning Flames is just a complete 'eff-you' to every single non-GFMC in the game too...)

 Traditio wrote:
1 - 5 man terminator squad with VotLW
4 have power fists
1 has a power weapon (either a sword or maul).

There is exactly one way to use Chaos Termies, and that is as squads of 3 with either Combi-plasmas or Combi-meltas for suicide alpha strikes.

Either change them up, or ditch them all together because brother, these guys suck steaming monkey poo.

 Traditio wrote:
1 - 5 man chosen squad; VotLW
4 with flamers
Rhino with dozer blade

Chosen upgrades should always be a 2:1 ratio, as in, 2 chumps per upgrade, otherwise you're just making an already overcosted garbage unit into an overcosted raging dumpster fire.
5-6 bodies w/2 specials if going MSU (which is currently the only way Chaos Marines should ever be played), or else 8-10 with 3-4 specials + melta bombs on the champ.

Better yet, just drop them altogether, since any 'Chosen' in a fluffy 1kSons army would be Sorcerers.

 Traditio wrote:
2 - 5 man thousand sons squads
Aspiring sorcerers have swords.
Rhinos

Shame on you for not taking 9 - may great Tzeentch punish your lack of true faith and curse you to an endless fate of defeat!

*ahem*. Also, put a Force Axe on the Champ so that he's at least remotely threatening... With a built-in 4++, he's actually quite good at surviving, and S5/ap2 + Force (with the addition of Ahriman potentially slinging Hammerhand and/or Sanctuary at them), is readily capable of nuking most MC's.

 Traditio wrote:
1 - 5 man Chaos Space Marine squad; VotLW
1 dude has a plasma gun
Rhino with dozer blade

Useless squad is useless... besides, for a 'fluffy' army, there should be NO non-Rubric basic grunts. Any 'mortal' Marines in a 1kSons warband are either Sorcerers, or else daemonically possessed. (fun fact: modeling some Possessed as daemonically corrupted Space Wolves is the fluffiest thing of all, because revenge never goes out of style!)

 Traditio wrote:
2 - 5 man raptor squads with VotLW
Aspiring champions have combimeltas
2 raptors in each have meltas

Raptors are again, highly unfluffy for a heavily themed 1kSons force...

 Traditio wrote:
1 - 5 man havoc squad with VotLW
4 dudes have meltaguns
Sarge has meltabombs
Rhino

Again, not very fluffy in the least, and Chosen under the Black Legion codex are arguably better since they have more attacks in close combat and most importantly, gain Obsec.

 Traditio wrote:
1 - 5 man havoc squad with VotLW
4 dudes have lascannons

If you want Lsacannons in a Chaos army, you take a Predator. The only 'heavy' weapon for CSM's to consider is the Autocannon, because multi-shot S7 beats out everything else by a country mile.

 Traditio wrote:
ML3 sorcerer goes with the flamer chosen.
Ahriman goes with the Chaos Space Marines squad.
Termies and raptors deepstrike.

ML3 Sorcerer and Ahriman both take the Psychic Shriek primaris power.

If you want a truly fluffy, themed Thousand Sons army, than you *should* be sticking to;
- Sorcerers, DP, Lord w/Scrolls of Magnus
- Cultists, Rubrics
- Termies, *Possessed, Hellbrutes (they can become actually almost decent in their dataslate formations)
- Chaos Spawn (best freaking unit in the whole damn book!), *Warptalons, Helldrake
- *Obliterators, Predator, Vindicator, Defiler (but don't actually take one, because they suck & Soul Grinders exist!), Land Raider, Forgefiend, Maulderfiend

Then add in Daemonic and/or R&H allies to suit.
Otherwise, if you take ANY 'mortal' Marines, then paint them up as non-Thousand Sons, such as members of The Scourged or the Oracles of Change, etc... There is no such thing as a non-sorcerous or non-dusty Thousand Sons Marine.

Honestly, if you want hyper fluffy 1kSons army, then look into something like;
Ahriman
Sorc (or else Cyclopia Cabal). Only ever take a MoT *IF* throwing one on a Disc... And even then, only take Lv2 to save pts since you have to roll on the game's worst psychic table.
Otherwise, put him on a Bike for the +1T boost and run him with the Spawn... If you go Cabal, then just put all the Sorcs on bikes and you've got an almost Deathstar.

9x Thousand Sons w/Force axe + Melta bombs Sorc, Rhino.
10x Cultists
10x Cultists (god dammit I wish we could take them in 9's! >.< )

3x Terms w/Combi-plasma
3x Terms w/Combi-plasma

3-5 Chaos Spawn

Hellturkey

2x Oblits w/MoT
2x Oblits w/MoT
Vindicator OR Relic Predator

Possessed *can* be workable, (same as a small unit of 5 Talons), but you really at that point absolutely *need* Daemon allies since they badly need Malefic support and/or Grimoire shenanigans/Divination help.
If you want a Daemon Prince at any point, again, *never* take the CSM one, except as a DoN Mace Prince... Codex Daemons is only about 1000x better in every conceivable way thanks to Greater Gifts, S8 Boomstick, etc...

Brining in Tzeentch Daemon allies also brings access to Divination, which can really make a Forgefiend well worth it's pts cost, plus brings access to a Soul Grinder to boot.


Basically, you don't ever run Thousand Sons just out of the CSM codex because they suck way too much. Instead, you bring some MSU and then ally in the good parts of Chaos, in either Daemons and/or Renegades & Heretics.

 Drasius wrote:
*blurp*

Edit: There really is no excuse to ever write a CSM list without at least 1 baledrake in it.

You've seen the model right? That's all the excuse I'll ever need NOT to field one XD

And if you insist on chosen and VotLW, at least take them in a chosen of abaddon formation to get fearless.
Or take a cabal, it's the best TSons fluff unit you can currently get.

Roknar wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
*blurp*

Edit: There really is no excuse to ever write a CSM list without at least 1 baledrake in it.

You've seen the model right? That's all the excuse I'll ever need NOT to field one XD

Conversions fix everything except bad rules.




Basically, Everything Exp626 said (I can't believe I didn't pick up ont he lack of spell familiar!), except maybe Sanctic on Ahriman. It's an option for sure, but don't discount biomancy as it's got a lot of what a psycher wants and the only truely bad power in there is #6. The only thing that doesn't strike me as overly fluffy is the possessed infantry (possessed/talons/oblits) since TSons are either dust or sorcs, but they are daemons, so as long as they've got a mark of Tzeentch, it's all good. Besides, nobody in their right mind will be taking possessed or talons and with all the grav around these days, MoT can sometimes actually be better than MoN (grav, plasma, Str10 AP2, D that's about it, it's a short but popular list)

Fun note: 5x Black Legion Chosen with a pair of specials in a rhino is cheaper than 10 CSM with a pair of specials in a rhino. Both are troops, both are dead once outside their transport.

Drasius wrote:Their only "mortal" troops are sorcerors and any cultists they have cultivated, maybe some renegade guardsmen.

Even the prodigal sons?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Prodigal_Sons

"The Prodigal Sons' origins trace back to the warband called The Brotherhood of Dust, led by Amon.[2] This warband was created from many sorcerers and Rubric Marines of the Thousand Sons, along with Chaos Space Marines from numerous other factions.[2a] The warband eventually came under Ahriman control after he killed Amon in a duel.[2b]"

Would the CSM from other factions include raptors, havocs, chosen, etc?

 Traditio wrote:

Drasius wrote:Their only "mortal" troops are sorcerors and any cultists they have cultivated, maybe some renegade guardsmen.

Even the prodigal sons?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Prodigal_Sons

"The Prodigal Sons' origins trace back to the warband called The Brotherhood of Dust, led by Amon.[2] This warband was created from many sorcerers and Rubric Marines of the Thousand Sons, along with Chaos Space Marines from numerous other factions.[2a] The warband eventually came under Ahriman control after he killed Amon in a duel.[2b]"

Would the CSM from other factions include raptors, havocs, chosen, etc?

If they were dedicated to Tzeentch, possible but unlikely. You might find them in a Tzeentch favoured warband along with maybe a squad of TSons and their aspiring sorceror or possibly a cabal of Tz marked Sorcerors as the warbands mystical muscle, but that is not a Thousand Sons army, that's a Tz marked warband. At the end of the day, if you want to include whatever units you want, go nuts. Odds are, you, like 99% of other people who've tried to make a Tz army work, will regret taking nothing but horrendously overpriced cult units and worthless marked troops. If you want to dilute that down further and take nothing but the dregs of the CSM dex, well, be my guest, but I'm going to wager that you're not going to have much fun losing 19 games out of 20.

Let us know just how it goes if you ever run this list against someone with a gladius with its totally balanced free transports. I suspect you, again, like many others, might actually need to play some games as CSM to see just how bad they really are.

 Traditio wrote:

Drasius wrote:Their only "mortal" troops are sorcerors and any cultists they have cultivated, maybe some renegade guardsmen.

Even the prodigal sons?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Prodigal_Sons

"The Prodigal Sons' origins trace back to the warband called The Brotherhood of Dust, led by Amon.[2] This warband was created from many sorcerers and Rubric Marines of the Thousand Sons, along with Chaos Space Marines from numerous other factions.[2a] The warband eventually came under Ahriman control after he killed Amon in a duel.[2b]"

Would the CSM from other factions include raptors, havocs, chosen, etc?

At that point, probably. However, you should still paint any 'mortal' Chaos Marines in a different livery than that of any actual Thousand Sons, since those "other factions" members are NOT! Thousand Sons themselves.
Rubric Terminators are fine, though they will obviously lack any of the proper rules such as Inferno Bolts, an Aspiring Sorc, etc... However, giving them the MoT does give them the same 4++ that basic Rubrics enjoy, and going Combi-Plasmas can give them a single round of solid punch. (ie: Deep Strike in a squad of 3-4 and light up something juicy with a bunch of S7/ap2 shooting!)

Overall though, as Drasius points out, you won't get much of a workable army from just a pure CSM Tizz warband, since poor Tzeentch is bar far the worst mark, in an already mostly ignorable book at this point...
If you want to win the odd game, then I highly suggest you add-in some allied Daemons or R&H's from IA:13.

Going the Daemons route gives you plenty of psychic dominance, one the game's better MC's, a cheap area denial 'turret' in the Exalted Flamer, and a lot speedy assets (Screamers, Burny Chariots, Disc Tzherald, Flamers).
You can access Divination this way for a tone of augments. Precognition on a LoC w/Boomstick is hilariously good, plus you've got powers for ignoring cover, boosting invulns, re-rolls to-hit, and/or boosting Overwatch.
Malefic of course is all about making more Daemons + Cursed Earth for boosting any model with the 'Daemon' rule. (which means it does effect the likes of Possessed, Talons, Oblits, etc... thus making those otherwise generally awful units viable)
The newly expanded Lore of Tzeentch from CotW brings pure blastiness, to the table, including a Str.D power!

Going the R&H route on the other hand is all about bringing the bodies! Lots and lots of cheap grunts with cheap upgrades for drowning the enemy, backed up by most of the basic tanks you'd typically find in an IG army.
The Covenant of Tzeentch upgrade is amazing, as it allows for more accurate Snap Shots. Plus, you can take from a selection of upgrades that can give your Renegade Demagogue added special benefits, such as a 'Dark Mechanicum' upgrade that gives him +1T/6+ FnP and power armour, or maybe make him up to a Lv2 Psyker (with Biomancy access!), etc...
The only drawback is that taking R&H's as an allied detachment means you won't get the benefits of the 'Master of Renegades' rules. (ie: no Plaguezombies or Spawn or such)


Honestly, if you're *really* serious about joining the winning side, then you're probably better off choosing either Daemons or R&H's as your Primary detachment, and then ally in some CSM flavourings, especially when going ANYTHING Tzeentch...

CSM's outside of a couple units are just unplayable at this point, since we're only 3 entire editions behind the game itself.

Except that then you have to ally in TSons as elites (where they somehow manage to get even worse, because of how Cult units interact with Primary detatchment shenanigans and the inability of allies to be warlord (and thus primary detatchment).

 Drasius wrote:
Except that then you have to ally in TSons as elites (where they somehow manage to get even worse, because of how Cult units interact with Primary detatchment shenanigans and the inability of allies to be warlord (and thus primary detatchment).

You could take IA:Vraks's The Purge detachment which has 2 Elite as the mandatory choices instead of Troops

Purge is nurgle only

Ok, here's a crazy idea:

What if I ran a dual CAD and switched out the termies for another ML3 sorcerer and 50 points of something else (naked cultists?)?

That would allow me to put a sorcerer in every rhino and have anywhere from 13-18 warp charges per turn.

 Drasius wrote:
Except that then you have to ally in TSons as elites (where they somehow manage to get even worse, because of how Cult units interact with Primary detatchment shenanigans and the inability of allies to be warlord (and thus primary detatchment).

Hmmm, that's true... (just maybe) GW might FAQ that restriction away, since they did originally FAQ Daemons to bring the 4-for-1 Heralds HQ slot a couple years ago?

Otherwise, just take a minimum sized CSM CAD as your primary, and just accept losing out on the ability to bring Spawns or Marauder units and such... Most of the better stuff you'd lose access to by allying in R&H's can instead simply be taken as proper CSM units. (ie: Decimator daemon engine & Spawns)
The main reason to bring in the R&H's anyways is bring sheer numbers and better firepower.

Here's a list I playtested last night against a tyrranids list with 3 hive tyrants:

CAD number 1:

Ahriman

ML3 Sorcerer with VotLW, force axe, boltpistol, sigil of corruption and mark of tzeentch

2 - 5 man thousand sons squads
Aspiring sorcerers have swords.
Rhinos

CAD number 2:

ML3 Sorcerer with VotLW, force stave, boltpistol, sigil of corruption and mark of tzeentch

1 - 10 man cultists squad with no upgrades

1 - 5 man chosen squad; VotLW
4 with flamers
Rhino with dozer blade

1 - 5 man Chaos Space Marine squad; VotLW
1 dude has a plasma gun
Rhino with dozer blade

2 - 5 man raptor squads with VotLW
Aspiring champions have combimeltas
2 raptors in each have meltas
Champions with meltabombs

1 - 5 man havoc squad with VotLW
4 dudes have meltaguns
Rhino

1 - 5 man havoc squad with VotLW
4 dudes have lascannons

ML3 sorcerer goes with the flamer chosen.
Ahriman goes with the Chaos Space Marines squad.
Steve the Stave sorcerer goes with the melta havocs.
Raptors deepstrike.

ML3 Sorcerers and Ahriman the Psychic Shriek primaris power.

Infiltrate Ahriman, his unit and rhino if I roll 2 or better on Ahriman's WL trait. Scream at everything.

And LOL if someone actually targets a rhino with a witch fire attack.

Care to add how the match went?

I realized after the match that I made a rules error. I was under the impression that you only needed a roll of 1 on the 1d3 to infiltrate ahriman, marines and dedicated transport.

So I mistakenly infiltrated both Ahriman and his unit as well as another sorcerer and his unit.

Ultimately, I don't think it made that much of a difference, but meh.

Long story short:

Infiltrate requires a 12-18 inch distance from the enemy units.

Psychic shriek has an 18 inch range and doesn't roll to hit.

Not to mention that psychic shrieks are witchfires and can be shot from the top hatches of rhinos.

And did I mention that Exocrines have LD 7?

It was pretty glorious.

I especially enjoyed lol'ing when my opponent tried to target my rhinos (which housed ML3 sorcerers) with his ML2 flyrants. "I'll roll 4 dice to lance your tank..." "Ok. I'll roll 16 dice to deny on 4s."

I was laying waste and he conceded on turn 3.

That said, I had some lucky rolls and he had some poor ones.

Nonetheless:

13-18 warp dice per turn with a psychic mastery level that will be better than your opponents. While spamming psychic shriek.

Pretty epic.

Hmm, got to say, kinda surprised it was so onesided.

Play tested against gray knights:

My list shows a marked weakness against grey knights. They generate too many dice to cast shriek reliably, and my list doesn't pack enough AP 2-3 weapons to kill termies reliably...and grey knights get too close, too fast.