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So, I have found the Dimachaeron to be far too slow to get to combat, and too easy to take out by any semi decent shooting. It is also huge and I dont know why it is only a MC.

My solution would be to make it a GC, but 200 points seems too cheap for it. How many points should I add to it to make it one?

I'd add at least 100. Being a GC is kind of a big deal: move 12", Stomp, highly resistant to Poison and Sniper, Feel No Pain, and in case it wasn't mentioned before, Stomp.

Personally, I think making it a Jump MC is sufficient.

I'd go with that, moving it to the Lord of War slot as well. 300pts sounds about right as it's more survivable and faster now so much more suited to it's intended role, it's also about the same price as the undercosted Wraithknight, but without the Strength D or T8.

Would also need to rethink its strangely complex plasm token rules.
Not much point going to all that effort to give it FNP if it already has it.

90 points to make it a gargantuan creature if you keep all the other rules the same.

At least, that's according to the updated vehicle and monstrous creature design rules I have linked in my signature...

Thanks for the suggestions guys! 100 points it is then, will try it out and let you know how it works. Stomp hasn't really factored in to my thinking, I completely forgot about it!!

The plasm tokens would be an improved Feel No Pain, wouldn't they? Could do something like +1 Toughness instead potentially?

Arson Fire wrote:
Would also need to rethink its strangely complex plasm token rules.
Not much point going to all that effort to give it FNP if it already has it.

I've found with my Talos that going from FnP 5+ to 4+ actually makes quite a difference in how long they survive so I'd say it' worth keeping all of it's rules as is, except for the Leaper part which seems pretty usueless.

Leaper makes it jump monstrous creature, with a 12" base movement that will definitely come in handy!

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Leaper makes it jump monstrous creature, with a 12" base movement that will definitely come in handy!

Leaper does no such thing. It guarantees you a 6" move if used in the movement phase and +1S to your Hammer of Wrath attacks when used in assault.

No more gmcs until all codices can handle them. There's too many lists that just lose when a gmc shows up.

That's a big part of the reason why I said it doesn't need anything other than being able to move 12" (That is, becoming a Jump MC. Deep Strike will just be a weird-looking side effect, if anyone even bothers...)

It's not too excessively hard to kill as an MC, but some folks - Dark Eldar come to mind - would have real trouble with it as a GC.

Martel732 wrote:
No more gmcs until all codices can handle them. There's too many lists that just lose when a gmc shows up.

And there are enough that can effortlessly crush one without even slowing down.
The game could do without that, just as much as it could do without 300 pt wraithknights.
However right now we're talking about a standard T6 3+ beastie. Not some immortal abomination from a top-tier codex.

The thing is the size of a knight, has massive long legs built for speed, but shuffles along at the regular 6" per turn. It's a case of the rules just not fitting the model.
Becoming a GMC would give it that 12" movement speed that I was stunned it didn't already have after the rules were released.
FNP? It can already get it a couple of different ways.

Stomp is the sticking point for me. But I don't like that rule in general. I don't like anything that bypasses the normal rules and just insta-gibs models. It's just as bad as the unkillable deathstars that it supposedly counters.

 Imateria wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Leaper makes it jump monstrous creature, with a 12" base movement that will definitely come in handy!

Leaper does no such thing. It guarantees you a 6" move if used in the movement phase and +1S to your Hammer of Wrath attacks when used in assault.

Doesn't it allow you to ignore intervening models and terrain?

So, it is jump without deepstrike. If he has a 12" movement base you are good to go.

jade_angel wrote:
That's a big part of the reason why I said it doesn't need anything other than being able to move 12" (That is, becoming a Jump MC. Deep Strike will just be a weird-looking side effect, if anyone even bothers...)

It's not too excessively hard to kill as an MC, but some folks - Dark Eldar come to mind - would have real trouble with it as a GC.

Not really, T6 with a 3+ save and FNP means DE have plenty of tools to do the job, a Corpsthiefe Claw or a Grotesquerie would ruin it for instance.


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Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Leaper makes it jump monstrous creature, with a 12" base movement that will definitely come in handy!

Leaper does no such thing. It guarantees you a 6" move if used in the movement phase and +1S to your Hammer of Wrath attacks when used in assault.

Doesn't it allow you to ignore intervening models and terrain?

So, it is jump without deepstrike. If he has a 12" movement base you are good to go.

It does allow you to ignore terrain and interveining models but the main problem is that it specifically limits you to a 6" move in the movement phase, making it truly uselss on a GMC that moves 12".

One of the only ways to take one of these down as is, is to take a SHW / GMC of your own or poison attack it to death. Making the dimachaeron a GMC for even 300 points would make it nigh on invincible imo. Keep it as is I think that it gives the tyranids a fairly cheap tough fire magnet that deals a lot of damage - he just has to be played correctly

 DaemonColin wrote:
One of the only ways to take one of these down as is, is to take a SHW / GMC of your own or poison attack it to death. Making the dimachaeron a GMC for even 300 points would make it nigh on invincible imo. Keep it as is I think that it gives the tyranids a fairly cheap tough fire magnet that deals a lot of damage - he just has to be played correctly

Seriously? A T6, 3+ monstrous creature with 6 wounds is pretty easy to kill after only 1 or 2 rounds of shooting.

Yeah, does it really take you a SHW/GMC to bring down a Mawloc, Trygon, or Tervigon?
Defensively, the Dimachaeron is identical to those three. With the only difference being a special rule granting it temporary FNP after it has chewed on someone in close combat.

A close combat it will likely never get to, as it is too slow and fragile! Even as a GMC, a krak missile will still wound on a 2+, leaving it with just FNP (and cover, but my group ignores the toe in cover rule for GMC).

This thing can quite easily get splattered by a Dreadnought in CC, GMC doesn't always equate to wraithknight levels of power.

I think I will trial it as a GMC for my next game and see how it performs!

NG77 wrote:
A close combat it will likely never get to, as it is too slow and fragile! Even as a GMC, a krak missile will still wound on a 2+, leaving it with just FNP (and cover, but my group ignores the toe in cover rule for GMC).

This thing can quite easily get splattered by a Dreadnought in CC, GMC doesn't always equate to wraithknight levels of power.

I think I will trial it as a GMC for my next game and see how it performs!

FNP would be a permanent defence it currently doesn't have though, and as a DE player I can confidently say never underestimate the value of an extra 5+, and it's now immune to ID from anything but a 6 on the D table.

Dreadnoughts are excellent in combat agains MC's, but it's only looking at doing 2-3 wounds per turn, the Dimachaeron has more attacks at a higher WS and I and twice as many Wounds as the Dread has Hull Points. Stomps here could make all the difference. Then again, you want to throw the Dimachaeron against CHapter Masters and Captains, a Dread is not what you want to be in combat with.

I do understand the value of an extra 5+, but I think you may be overestimating the value of a Toughness 6, 3+. ID still removes D3 wounds, it isn't completely worthless.

I know you don't want to be in combat with a Dreadnought as an MC, but a 300 point model that is fethed against one can't be that broken! I do see stomp as huge but we don't tend to play it with the 6 = remove a model as it is too powerful. Remember, I'm not suggesting it as a free upgrade but as an additional 100 points. 12" move and a 5+ FNP plus stomp isn't too much of s game changer. While this might be an issue for those armies heavily reliant upon poison, the anti tank should be quite potent, what with GMCs not getting a toe in cover save. As the only dark eldar player in the group I think I could deal with it quite comfortably!

A 12" movement would be a HUGE buff. Then it could walk away from the dreadnaught. Doesn't this beast have strength 8 on the attack?

(Pretty sure it had furious charge and a bonus from the melee weapons it comes with.)

If so, it should be able to take down a dread on the charge fairly reliably. Especially when you want to actually finish it on the enemy's turn anyway.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
A 12" movement would be a HUGE buff. Then it could walk away from the dreadnaught. Doesn't this beast have strength 8 on the attack?

(Pretty sure it had furious charge and a bonus from the melee weapons it comes with.)

If so, it should be able to take down a dread on the charge fairly reliably. Especially when you want to actually finish it on the enemy's turn anyway.

S7, it has Rampage instead of Furious Charge, and thats if you use the Grasping Talons instead of the Sickle Claws (which are S User). Mind you, with at least 7 attacks on the charge you've got a very good chance of getting a 6 to hit, giving you the extra attack at I1 which is S10, AP1. And yes I agree, 12" movement is huge


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NG77 wrote:
I do understand the value of an extra 5+, but I think you may be overestimating the value of a Toughness 6, 3+. ID still removes D3 wounds, it isn't completely worthless.

I know you don't want to be in combat with a Dreadnought as an MC, but a 300 point model that is fethed against one can't be that broken! I do see stomp as huge but we don't tend to play it with the 6 = remove a model as it is too powerful. Remember, I'm not suggesting it as a free upgrade but as an additional 100 points. 12" move and a 5+ FNP plus stomp isn't too much of s game changer. While this might be an issue for those armies heavily reliant upon poison, the anti tank should be quite potent, what with GMCs not getting a toe in cover save. As the only dark eldar player in the group I think I could deal with it quite comfortably!

I know about the D3, but I'd much rather take D3 wounds than take 1 wound from a Force weapon and remove the model outright (I've lost an entire Corpsthiefe Claw on turn 1 to a couple of Dreadnights because of Force before). I'd see a GMC Dimachaeron and a Dreadnought as a close match up myself, which is fair enough since the Dimachaeron is ment for taking on tough characters whilst the Dreadnought these days serves best at fighting MC's in close combat. So yes, I think making the Dima 300pts and a GMC would be spot on.

Galef mentioned Beast Monstrous Creatures. I think all large Tyranids would benefit from becoming Beast Monstrous Creatures rather than Gargantuan, since Gargantuan creatures tend to break the rule in half whenever they appear.

Also Nids are the masters of Monsters, so even if they become Gargantuan, I don't think they should be moved to different slots. Point cost alone can restrict their spamming especially since they're only rocking T6, 3+ armor and only a handful of wounds. Bolter Fire of a comparable point cost can put them down.