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This is maybe a bit of a rant. But I just wanted to put this to Dakka: are 20 man tactical squads the only way to run them outside of a Rhino?
I've got to be honest. I'm not sure where the "20 man tac is the only way to go" argument came from. Almost all video bat reps I've seen by veteran 30k players seem to use a mix of either bare bones 10, 15 or rhino squads.

I myself was putting together a 2000 Death Guard list after buying BaC and I was desperately trying to think of a way to include the two 20 man squads and still take enough Legion unique/fluffy toys to make them fun to play. Now I made a list but then just for arguments sake, I went back and tried another but with 10 man squads instead and to be perfectly honest I like the 10 man load out much more than the 20. The first reason is that I now have the points to squeeze in some Grave Wardens, which now gives me two termie squads, 2 tacs and a heavy support squad (Reaping makes them troops) so that's five scoring units as oppose to four in my other list. Second of all, as a returning player to the hobby, its much more exciting to paint up a variety of units rather than just an endless rabble of basic marines.

Now I'm not saying 20 man isn't good, however whenever I see a list posted on Dakka, the first thing anyone says is "Ah it's okay but maybe drop some stuff to beef up those tacticals, 10 men just aren't enough" and I don't agree with that.

I actually think it has more to do with the rest of the list than just a blanket statement that you have to have 40 marines running around. Because let's face it, most tac squads are just going to be used to sit on objectives anyway, so it seems counter intuitive to always spend a third of your points on two blobs that you don't expect to do anything. Again I'm not bashing 20 man squads, I love the way they look on the table and for some armies they are a great choice, but not for every single list.

Now bear in mind this is mostly aimed at 2000 point lists, I understand that at 3000 they become much more necessary but here are some common reasons I hear that one has to take 20 and why I disagree.

1. Durability: There is a lot of stuff in the game that can wipe out 10 men in one round of shooting so you need bigger squads.
Counter point: . 10 man squads are much easier to keep in cover. 20 marines are extremely unwieldy, especially if you run two squads. Inevitably you will have to either bunch up or leave large sections exposed to shooting, mitigating the benefits of a large squad.

2. Higher damage output: Now this one I can't disagree with, obviously more bodies more shots. However in an army with 10 man squads, you have vastly more points to spend on other gubbins that can thin out your enemy before they join the fray, Now a small squad certainly requires more nuance but 20 tacticals are hardly super effective anyway, The exception really is World Eaters in assault and Imperial Fists bonus to shooting. Otherwise I think you should leave your damage output to other squads.

3. Area denial. Again obviously 20 marines can cover a lot of board, but on the other hand, all it takes is a single bare bones Cortus dread to charge in and you have a 300 point squad tied up for an entire battle, pulling them out of position and giving the enemy a chance to dominate the table.

That's just my two cents. Now I'm not a super experienced player so I'm genuinely interested to know what the other side's argument is. I've seen this come up in almost every army list critique and wanted to question the logic of the meta.

They can do everything they need to do tactically at 10 men.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
They can do everything they need to do tactically at 10 men.

From what people seem to say on here 10 men is a roadbump at best considering the amount of dakka in 30k and from what I've seen that is the main reason for taking the blobs.

10 man squads are too squishy. There are plenty of weapons that can kill scores of marines in a single turn and remember they do not have ATSKNF. They'll run and there is no guarantee they'll stop. Beefing them up lets them take more casualties without breaking.

However, I find 20 a bit too unwieldly for TAC purposes. 15 are plenty.

So it really depends on your Legion, your RoW and how you play your army.

As a LW player I tend to run them in Rhinos with a decent Sgt and drive them either right at the enemy as part of the spear tip or to rush to objectives. The Rhino is effectively armor for them and will save them from getting blown away.

Bare bones ten men is basically useless.
Things you can do to mitigate this however are in no particular order.
1. Apothecary
2. Sergeant with Artificer
3. Extra combat weapons
4.Rhino
These things will all make that ten men a bit better at doing there job in a 2k or under list.
What i see and upsets me are when someone tries to take all the special toys and then 2 ten man tac squads becasue they have to, mostly this is because when i look at their list all i can think is "I hope you are really gonna enjoy the first and second turn of this game as you wont have anything left to really play with by turn three".
20 man tacs are fantastic because they do the job well and if you want to stick lots of fancy toys in your list they give you the numbers and board presence so you dont get tabled.

 King Amroth wrote:
Bare bones ten men is basically useless.
Things you can do to mitigate this however are in no particular order.
1. Apothecary
2. Sergeant with Artificer
3. Extra combat weapons
4.Rhino
These things will all make that ten men a bit better at doing there job in a 2k or under list.
What i see and upsets me are when someone tries to take all the special toys and then 2 ten man tac squads becasue they have to, mostly this is because when i look at their list all i can think is "I hope you are really gonna enjoy the first and second turn of this game as you wont have anything left to really play with by turn three".
20 man tacs are fantastic because they do the job well and if you want to stick lots of fancy toys in your list they give you the numbers and board presence so you dont get tabled.

Ah sorry, I think I caused confusion, when I said bare bones I just meant minimum squad size. Apologies!
I will field them with all of those extras, minus the Rhino (because Death Guard). My cause was comparison was a 10 man or 20 man with all of the additional stuff. I just started to realise that as it's the Sarge and the Apothecary that do all the heavy lifting anyway, it seems unnecessary to spend an extra 100 points on regular guys.
As I said at the beginning, I'm not trying to argue that one is better than they other, merely that 10 man can be the way to go sometimes. Particularly as I feel the comment refers more to the higher points values that the game is aimed at (ie 2500-3500). In a 2000 point game, if my opponent is firing at a 10 man tac squad with one of his doomsday weapons, then that's another turn my Termies have to get into his face.

I think particularly Legions like the Ultramarines do better in small units because they get buffs to synergy and can make use of the flexibility.

The size of, and how many, tactical squads you use is all dependant on how many scoring units you have. If all you have for scoring units are two 10-man tactical squads, you may as well give your opponent a free win. If you've got other scoring units to make up for it, then two small squads can be enough. Personally, I run mine with at least 15 in each, preferably 20, but it depends on how many points I have to spare.

I run 20 man squads on the basis that this is the horus heresy and LEGIONS are fighting, there should be waves of units of 20 tactical marines!

In fact, why do we still have compulsory HQ units? Replace them with a 20 man tac squad!!

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:

 King Amroth wrote:
Bare bones ten men is basically useless.
Things you can do to mitigate this however are in no particular order.
1. Apothecary
2. Sergeant with Artificer
3. Extra combat weapons
4.Rhino
These things will all make that ten men a bit better at doing there job in a 2k or under list.
What i see and upsets me are when someone tries to take all the special toys and then 2 ten man tac squads becasue they have to, mostly this is because when i look at their list all i can think is "I hope you are really gonna enjoy the first and second turn of this game as you wont have anything left to really play with by turn three".
20 man tacs are fantastic because they do the job well and if you want to stick lots of fancy toys in your list they give you the numbers and board presence so you dont get tabled.

Ah sorry, I think I caused confusion, when I said bare bones I just meant minimum squad size. Apologies!
I will field them with all of those extras, minus the Rhino (because Death Guard). My cause was comparison was a 10 man or 20 man with all of the additional stuff. I just started to realise that as it's the Sarge and the Apothecary that do all the heavy lifting anyway, it seems unnecessary to spend an extra 100 points on regular guys.
As I said at the beginning, I'm not trying to argue that one is better than they other, merely that 10 man can be the way to go sometimes. Particularly as I feel the comment refers more to the higher points values that the game is aimed at (ie 2500-3500). In a 2000 point game, if my opponent is firing at a 10 man tac squad with one of his doomsday weapons, then that's another turn my Termies have to get into his face.

I think particularly Legions like the Ultramarines do better in small units because they get buffs to synergy and can make use of the flexibility.

Ah then i wouldnt worry about it to be honest when choosing things like that what makes me decide on 10 men or more is whether i need the extra infantry, if you dont a ten man squad is enough.

I think you're missing another obvious reason to get 20. After paying to unlock the squad you get a discount on marines. 20 with apothecary for footslogging is king. It helps vs deep strikers and infiltration. Yes stuff can kill it but they are insanely durable for the points. The can't keep them in cover problem shouldn't be that big; between intervening models and keeping the front guys in cover I haven't had a huge problem with it. When people shoot at them I'm generally happy.

If you're taking them on foot I wouldn't go lower than 15+apothecary with AA on both him and the sarg.

Some legions reward MSU (Ultramarines) while other prefer blobs.
Ironically, though, the Ultramarines fluff is all about blobs, even if they gameplay doesn't really reward it.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Some legions reward MSU (Ultramarines) while other prefer blobs.
Ironically, though, the Ultramarines fluff is all about blobs, even if they gameplay doesn't really reward it.

Ehh, I think they function better as a decent number of blobs with good support (i.e. a large number of support or recon squads to 'paint' targets) this way you get the number of squads to benefit that way AND the benefits are amplified for said larger squads.

something like a 20-man blob with their 'paired' 5-man sniper recon squad.

I run large 20 man squads - they tend to be subject to attrition before they get to fight and it makes buffs like characters and Dark Channelling more useful.

15-man squads for me. AA + power fist on the sarge, bolter, pistol and chain axe on everyone else plus an apothecary per squad. I run 3 squads like that so I can use the berserker assault RoW.

20 man squads. Break tests, bolter drill, and more bodies for my opponents to chew through.

20 with a apoth is a great unit. Even throw youre warlord in there if needed.

Nothing wrong with 10 in a rhino either.