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Hi there,
I had an idea this afternoon, about the MC and how I need multiples wound by anti tanks weapons to kill them (seriously, a baneblade cannon make only 1 wound to a carnifex ? 1 wound ?! ), which is very simple, and doesn't make the MC weak, I think.

Every two point of Strenght above the Toughness of the MC is another wound.

Example:
a carnifex is wounded by an autocannon: S = 7 ; T = 6 : just one wound.
a carnifex is wounded by an krak missile: S = 8 ; T = 6 : two wounds
a carnifex is wounded by a railgun: S = 10 ; T = 6 : 3 wounds.

As you can see, there no instant death, except for the T5 MC (daemon princes), so it is very rare. It is simple, I think it represents really well the power of the weapons ( a krak missile MUST wound more than a simple assault cannon shot, but not necessarily kill such a beast), quick to understand and to apply, and NO random roll every time a MC is hurt.

What do you think about it ? Am I missing something ? Did someone already posted it ?.

My change was to make ordinance weapons s do d3 wounds if it inflicted an unsaved wound, and ap1 weapons s get to roll to wound again if they successfully caused a wound the first time.

Then I made a switch to the damage chart so weapons that were 4+ higher strength than toughness wounded automatically.

So, strength 10, ap1 would do 2 wounds reliably to a toughness 6 monstrous creature barring cover and a leman Russ squadron with no other weapons would put down 1-9 wounds on most creatures in the game if they hit. Now they and basilisk batteries threaten wraithknight and meltaguns do serious work on riptides.

The issue with all these multi wound ideas is you need to do things with low wound monsters.

The problem is your creating band aid solutions that change the way basic mechanics act against very specific models. It's nonsense. Look for simple changes to the core rules that effect all models unilaterally correctly.

 godardc wrote:


As you can see, there no instant death, except for the T5 MC (daemon princes), so it is very rare. It is simple, I think it represents really well the power of the weapons ( a krak missile MUST wound more than a simple assault cannon shot, but not necessarily kill such a beast), quick to understand and to apply, and NO random roll every time a MC is hurt.

What do you think about it ? Am I missing something ? Did someone already posted it ?.

As above, i think it is bad that it is for specific models. You say this works on MCs; what about centurions, ogryns, of thunder wolf cavalry, why would it be good for them to be unaffected? Maybe you should be able to do two wounds to a independent character for having s6 or s5.

I am not saying they should, I'm saying that it is bad to have that rule just for MCs, and that it seems a little off the mark if you use it for everything.

You are right: I didn't think about this.
I could argue that ogryns, etc... have less Toughness and so are more easily killedd by small fire arms or instant death (Strenght > or = to 2* the Toughness) but you are right.
I loved my idea, it could have been one more special rule in the Monstruous Creature entry :(

pelicaniforce wrote:

 godardc wrote:


As you can see, there no instant death, except for the T5 MC (daemon princes), so it is very rare. It is simple, I think it represents really well the power of the weapons ( a krak missile MUST wound more than a simple assault cannon shot, but not necessarily kill such a beast), quick to understand and to apply, and NO random roll every time a MC is hurt.

What do you think about it ? Am I missing something ? Did someone already posted it ?.

As above, i think it is bad that it is for specific models. You say this works on MCs; what about centurions, ogryns, of thunder wolf cavalry, why would it be good for them to be unaffected? Maybe you should be able to do two wounds to a independent character for having s6 or s5.

I am not saying they should, I'm saying that it is bad to have that rule just for MCs, and that it seems a little off the mark if you use it for everything.

Game wise compare the special rules for them.
Monstrous Creatures are packing almost all the best rules and benefits from all three of those units and none of the downsides - The ability to fire multiple weapons like the Centurions but no restriction saying they can't fire the same weapon twice. Multiple Wounds like the Ogryn but usually packing better WS, Leadership and basic strength. Hammer of Wrath like the Thunderwolves and usually rending and fleet to boot but the MCs always get Move Through Cover where Cavalry of any kind is taking difficult terrain tests as dangerous terrain tests. Did I mention they sometimes cost about the same as well?

Fluff wise it wouldn't make a lot of sense, then again Space Marines only have the same number of wounds as humans with a single set of organs. Steeds die when the rider dies, the rider dies when the steed dies. Independent characters on chariots can choose to take wounds on themselves or their chariots but can't bail out and walk when the chariot goes pop. Bolt weapons are firing mini nukes but they're laughably bad.

Err... MCs can't fire the same weapon twice, dunno where you're getting that idea from.
Most MCs also cost 2-3x that of a single Ogryn.
Most don't get Rending or Fleet.
Hammer of Wrath is a pretty pathetic special rule.

Most of the MCs that cost the same as TWC are slow and lack the 3++ the TWC can buy.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Err... MCs can't fire the same weapon twice, dunno where you're getting that idea from.
Most MCs also cost 2-3x that of a single Ogryn.
Most don't get Rending or Fleet.
Hammer of Wrath is a pretty pathetic special rule.

Most of the MCs that cost the same as TWC are slow and lack the 3++ the TWC can buy.

Neither do Centurions. If MCs carry two ranged weapons they can shoot both weapons, like a Centurion, the Centurion however can't fire those same weapons again in the next turn.

Most have the ability to shunt, fly, jump, make some kind of bigger move and those special rules usually come with inbuilt fleet.

Most come standard with a weapon that gives them Rending or AP2, oh and they always have that nifty Smash ability.

Agreed, Hammer of Wrath is a pretty pathetic special rule but it's one of the best things Thunderwolves have.

For The same price as a unit of Thunderwolves a Nids player can get a Harpie that can attack the Wolves with no fear of backlash because it flies. A Chaos player can join a Psyker up with an expendable unit - yes he can afford both for the price of a Thunderwolf pack - and sacrifice a model to summon winged Daemon Lords or use the axe trick go on a suicide run and get two. I'm sorry but lacking a 3++ invulnerable save is laughable in the face of something that can only be hit on 6, wounded on 5(3 if you have a plasma pistol which is another cost that brings its own issues) and has the jink ability to jink on a 4+. Oh, did I mention the whole Vector Strike thing?

A Centurion can fire the same weapon the next turn. You're thinking of CSM Obliterators (the OG Centurions) who can't even fire two weapons in a single turn.

Most MCs don't have the ability to fly, jump, shunt etc. Many can, yes, but not most or even a majority.

AP2 as standard? Yes, thanks to Smash, but not inbuilt Rending (not that it matters with Smash, though it does help against vehicles for the very few that have inbuilt Rending or access to it).

Hammer of Wrath is not one of wthe best things TWC have. A 12" move, inbuilt Rending, S5, T5, 2W and easy access to both Powerfists/Thunderhammers and Stormshields is what makes them a great unit.

Vector Striking is a single AP2 hit at the FMC's base Strength (no weapon modifiers) against ground targets... not scary in the slightest. The only reason to Vector Strike is the lack of a second ranged weapon (or lack of a ranged weapon at all).

If a melee FMC is getting hit on 6's it isn't hurting you at all as while you're flying you can't charge into melee. If you aren't bringing skyfire weapons then sure, FMCs and Flyers can be a problem... that said though it's not like Harpies have a stellar damage output against TWC and MeQs. They aren't even decried as OP.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
A Centurion can fire the same weapon the next turn. You're thinking of CSM Obliterators (the OG Centurions) who can't even fire two weapons in a single turn.

Most MCs don't have the ability to fly, jump, shunt etc. Many can, yes, but not most or even a majority.

AP2 as standard? Yes, thanks to Smash, but not inbuilt Rending (not that it matters with Smash, though it does help against vehicles for the very few that have inbuilt Rending or access to it).

Hammer of Wrath is not one of wthe best things TWC have. A 12" move, inbuilt Rending, S5, T5, 2W and easy access to both Powerfists/Thunderhammers and Stormshields is what makes them a great unit.

Vector Striking is a single AP2 hit at the FMC's base Strength (no weapon modifiers) against ground targets... not scary in the slightest. The only reason to Vector Strike is the lack of a second ranged weapon (or lack of a ranged weapon at all).

If a melee FMC is getting hit on 6's it isn't hurting you at all as while you're flying you can't charge into melee. If you aren't bringing skyfire weapons then sure, FMCs and Flyers can be a problem... that said though it's not like Harpies have a stellar damage output against TWC and MeQs. They aren't even decried as OP.

I get the two mixed up. One marine walker is pretty much the same as another when you don't have access to them.

Most MCs have the option to upgrade to extended movement even if they don't have them standard fifteen points to put a jump pack on a character, twenty to give a monstrous creature true flight.

Rending on claws, scythes, swords, talons, axes and guns in the case of the Eldar and Tau abominations.

You know what happens when you sink points into Thunderwolf Cavalry like that? They die early. Powerfists and Thunder Hammers cost ridiculous amounts for something that only works in melee and hits last.

Mobile AP2. Vector strike hits at the end of the movement phase, are not a shooting attack and are resolved at the MCs base strength which is rarely less than five. That's a tank popper right there even if it doesn't land to charge anything.

I do bring Skyfire, usually Longfangs in Rhinos, Flyers are almost always less of an issue than FMCs, Flyers only have the Jink save not armour saves and FNP possibilities. That Harpie has the option of its standard guns and vector strike and mobility that puts Thunderwolves to shame. Big damage output generally means nothing to Thunderwolf cavalry packing shields. If you can put a Harpie in the air for every pack of cavalry you can and will hunt them down just by repeatedly peppering them, and if the wolves hide in combat just go break some land speeders or kill some backfield troops until they free up for some more peppering, I guarantee you will catch them. Nothing in the Tyranid codex is OP but then neither are the Thunderwolf Cavalry, point is the Harpy is a MC that costs less than the Thunderwolves pack and are easily every bit as good if not better.

Sorry, I think it's closer to 35 to give a hive tyrant wings.

To clarify, one of the best FMC in the game if not the best is a flyrant. There are exactly zero times I have used smash or vector strike. The base line guns or a swarm template are better considering the otherwise loss of more attacks. Many lower str attacks are always better then 1 high. Why gamble a single die roll when you could have 3,4,6?

You're seriously bringing up Harpies as a danger to TWC?

The Harpies damage output is atrociously poor.
Stock, it comes with a TL S6 AP5 pie plate.
Aside from that, all it has is a S5 vector strike (lol), and the ability to poop a spore mine when it flies over something.

Its upgrade options don't help much either.

I often take one of these in demo games vs new players, to show them how FMCs work. It takes most people all of two turns to realize that it's barely able to hurt them at all, and after that they just ignore it while it flaps around uselessly.

Mobile AP2. Vector strike hits at the end of the movement phase, are not a shooting attack and are resolved at the MCs base strength which is rarely less than five. That's a tank popper right there even if it doesn't land to charge anything.

Sorry but this is hilarious to me. A single S5 hit, even if it's AP2, is by no means a serious threat to vehicles.
Hell, maybe an AV10 Ork flyer. That will at least give it D3 hits. Needing a 6 to pen, 6 to explode. So a 1/18 chance of killing its optimal target.
That's a tank popper right there

If anyone were to play non Flyrant Nids they'd soon learn MCs are laughably bad.

Or at least the Nid ones are.

Address the other culprits, not MCs.

Arson Fire wrote:
You're seriously bringing up Harpies as a danger to TWC?

The Harpies damage output is atrociously poor.
Stock, it comes with a TL S6 AP5 pie plate.
Aside from that, all it has is a S5 vector strike (lol), and the ability to poop a spore mine when it flies over something.

Its upgrade options don't help much either.

I often take one of these in demo games vs new players, to show them how FMCs work. It takes most people all of two turns to realize that it's barely able to hurt them at all, and after that they just ignore it while it flaps around uselessly.

Mobile AP2. Vector strike hits at the end of the movement phase, are not a shooting attack and are resolved at the MCs base strength which is rarely less than five. That's a tank popper right there even if it doesn't land to charge anything.

Sorry but this is hilarious to me. A single S5 hit, even if it's AP2, is by no means a serious threat to vehicles.
Hell, maybe an AV10 Ork flyer. That will at least give it D3 hits. Needing a 6 to pen, 6 to explode. So a 1/18 chance of killing its optimal target.
That's a tank popper right there

I'm bringing up Harpies as equal to or better than a Thunderwolves pack of the same points value, not as being over powered.
Their output is only poor if you're chasing things they can't hurt.
Trucks, Land Speeders, Infantry on foot, Beasts, Bikes, Cavalry, anything with short range fire all of these are within the Harpy's ability to damage, vector strike something it can hurt, shoot something else that it can hurt, mine pay for themselves every time I field them.
I don't have an issue with MCs in general, I have an issue with MCs that shouldn't be MCs, like the ones being fielded by the Eldar, Tau and Grey Knights.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
You're seriously bringing up Harpies as a danger to TWC?

The Harpies damage output is atrociously poor.
Stock, it comes with a TL S6 AP5 pie plate.
Aside from that, all it has is a S5 vector strike (lol), and the ability to poop a spore mine when it flies over something.

Its upgrade options don't help much either.

I often take one of these in demo games vs new players, to show them how FMCs work. It takes most people all of two turns to realize that it's barely able to hurt them at all, and after that they just ignore it while it flaps around uselessly.

Mobile AP2. Vector strike hits at the end of the movement phase, are not a shooting attack and are resolved at the MCs base strength which is rarely less than five. That's a tank popper right there even if it doesn't land to charge anything.

Sorry but this is hilarious to me. A single S5 hit, even if it's AP2, is by no means a serious threat to vehicles.
Hell, maybe an AV10 Ork flyer. That will at least give it D3 hits. Needing a 6 to pen, 6 to explode. So a 1/18 chance of killing its optimal target.
That's a tank popper right there

I'm bringing up Harpies as equal to or better than a Thunderwolves pack of the same points value, not as being over powered.
Their output is only poor if you're chasing things they can't hurt.
Trucks, Land Speeders, Infantry on foot, Beasts, Bikes, Cavalry, anything with short range fire all of these are within the Harpy's ability to damage, vector strike something it can hurt, shoot something else that it can hurt, mine pay for themselves every time I field them.
I don't have an issue with MCs in general, I have an issue with MCs that shouldn't be MCs, like the ones being fielded by the Eldar, Tau and Grey Knights.

The problem comes from defining what should be an MC. Things like WK throw a spanner in the works.

Here's what should be a vehicle Walker:

Dreadnoughts
War Walkers
Defilers

These units do not have humanoid characteristics and do not move like humanoid creatures.

Wraithlords/Knights are piloted by spirits of dead Eldar, are built humanoid and move like living creatures.
Riptides are huge suits piloted by a Tau and moves like a much larger battlesuit, which moves like a humanoid with a jet pack.
Dreadknights are designed to follow the movements of the pilot and (quote) "move with all the speed and grace of a living being"


As far back as I can remember, monstrous creature vs walker was never about the damage it could take and how it reacts, its about how it inflicts damage and can move. Knights and Dreadnoughts and AT-ST-esque Sentinels and War Walkers do not move like living beings, they move like machines and are very clearly machines.
Riptides, Wraiths and Dreadknights move like living creatures, designed to emulate the speed and natural movements of the pilot(s).

Now, an argument could be made for CSM Dinobots, but those have absolutely 0 biological components, those are Daemons, who do not have a physical form to define how they should move, and their inhabitant of the metal body is the only one they know. This is represented by the Maulerfiend being able to move like a Beast but there is nothing biological about them in the slightest, unlike a Dreadknight or Riptide, or at the very least a Wraithknight which has a pilot and a spirit inside that was once alive.

I disagree with your assessment, but the gulf between MCs and vehicles shouldn't be so large, so it really shouldn't matter.

How is a riptide not a machine?

How does it emulate the natural movements of the wearer? (Last I checked, regular Fire Caste could neither fly nor had reverse jointed legs).

If it has a pilot, it is a vehicle.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
How is a riptide not a machine?

How does it emulate the natural movements of the wearer? (Last I checked, regular Fire Caste could neither fly nor had reverse jointed legs).

If it has a pilot, it is a vehicle.

It moves like a humanoid. It walks with natural speed and balance, its not a lumbering cumbersome box like a Dreadnought or Killa Kan. Its a bigger Crisis suit. Its very clearly capable of moving very quickly and naturally, whereas a Dreadnought isn't. That's the difference for me. How it moves.

And yes Tau have reverse jointed legs, look at their feet. Its easier to see on the larger model but the Tau are very consistant, their legs on their Fire Warriors and Crisis Suits and Broadsides and bigger suits are all the same.

 Deadshot wrote:

As far back as I can remember, monstrous creature vs walker was never about the damage it could take and how it reacts, its about how it inflicts damage and can move.

Then you haven't paid attention; because it absolutely has been about the damage it could take.

MCs are more resilient than vehicles which do not have access to any kind of saves. It's a simple fact.

I like the idea of having MCs roll on the Vehicle damage table for each wound.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

As far back as I can remember, monstrous creature vs walker was never about the damage it could take and how it reacts, its about how it inflicts damage and can move.

Then you haven't paid attention; because it absolutely has been about the damage it could take.

MCs are more resilient than vehicles which do not have access to any kind of saves. It's a simple fact.

I'm not talking rules, I'm talking fluff, which is what actually defines what something is classed as. Tau Suits have jetpacks, so they float and hover, instead of getting a big leap like Assault Marines. Land Speeders have anti-grav but can't fly, so they are skimmers, unlike Stormravens who became Flyers.

Daemon Prince, Tyranid MCs, Wraithlord, Wraithknight, Dreadknights, Riptides, Stormsurges and the new giant triple gun suit, Greater Daemons, Squiggoths of all sizes, Daemon Lords, Deldar Pain Engines, C'tan Shards, Tomb Stalkers/Sentinels. What's the common denominator? Their range of motion, even the more mechanical ones can move like living creatures.

Relative to

Dreadnoughts, War Walker, Sentinel, Deff Dread, Killa Kan, Orkanaught, Stompa, Knights and Titans, Decimator Daemon Engine, Defilers, Khorne Lord of Skulls. Which move clunkily and not at all like living creatures and have a limited range of motion.


Again, you could mention many Daemon Engines including Dinobots and Brass Scorpion, but again I note that they are Daemons and not bound by mortal bodies and so their "range of motion" when in their natural state is beyond our ability to comprehend, and are therefore limited by their mechanical bodies.

For the OP's original suggestion, I agree to the fact that there needs to be some form of change. I don't see an issue with it directly effecting MCs as there are weaponry that directly effect different classes of models already. Weaponry directly effects vehicles different from infantry. An MC is not infantry.

In terms of the debate of what is/isn't a vehicle/MC, I tend to side with the idea of if it's piloted, it's a vehicle. Tyranids have the true monstrous creatures because it's a single sentient being, not something trapped inside/piloting something else. A wraithknight has the soul of an Eldar, a dreadnought is essentially a life-support system for a nearly dead space marine. It traps the soul within it as well. A battlesuit has a pilot. There are individuals noted as "pilots" for them. If it's piloting something, it's a vehicle. A killa-kan is literally an Ork "Battlesuit."

 IronMaster wrote:
For the OP's original suggestion, I agree to the fact that there needs to be some form of change. I don't see an issue with it directly effecting MCs as there are weaponry that directly effect different classes of models already. Weaponry directly effects vehicles different from infantry. An MC is not infantry.

In terms of the debate of what is/isn't a vehicle/MC, I tend to side with the idea of if it's piloted, it's a vehicle. Tyranids have the true monstrous creatures because it's a single sentient being, not something trapped inside/piloting something else. A wraithknight has the soul of an Eldar, a dreadnought is essentially a life-support system for a nearly dead space marine. It traps the soul within it as well. A battlesuit has a pilot. There are individuals noted as "pilots" for them. If it's piloting something, it's a vehicle. A killa-kan is literally an Ork "Battlesuit."

A Riptide is also a Battlesuit. So is a Stormsurge. The superhuge Tau Titan is also called the "Supremacy Suit."


As for the original question of what to do, is make vehicles and monstrous creatures not so disparate with vehicles much more fragile. Do this by making them harder to destroy. For example, instead of any hit knocking off a hull point, lets return to the 5th Ed version but add HP as "lives."

1- Shaken
The vehicle and Passangers may only Snap Fire during the owner's next turn.
2- Stunned
The vehicle and passangers may only Snap Fire during the owner's next turn and the vehicle may not move. Passengers may not disembark, except by emergency disembarkation.
3- Weapon Destroyed
1 random weapon on the vehicle is destroyed. If the vehicle has no weapons remaining it is instead immobilised.
4 Immobile
The vehicle may not move for the rest of the rest of the game (Flyers have exceptions). If the vehicle is already Immobile, count this instead as Weapon Destroyed. If the vehicle is both immobile and has no weapons left, instead count this as Critical Damage (below).
5 Crippling Damage
Remove 1 Hull Point. If the vehicle loses its last Hull Point, it is wrecked.
6 Critical Damage
Remove D3 Hull Points. If the vehicle loses its last Hull Point it Explodes.

Both glance and penetrating hits roll on damage. Glancing at -2, Open Topped+1, AP2+1 (including Pseudo-AP2 such as Rending), AP1+2. So only a penetrating hit can destroy a vehicle outright in a single shot, so we're talking proper anti-vehicle weaponry, no more glancing to death with Str 5 weapons. This also means your mid-range Anti-armour weapons, that are high strength but not AP2 or 1 have a chance to destroy enemy vehicles. For example, a Krak Missile can penetrate and potentially 1 shot a Rhino, as can an Autocannon, but unlikely, whereas dedicated AT weapons like a Lascannon or Melta have a fairly good chance to do serious damage.

Alternately, how about penetrating hits knock off a hull point and glancing hits result in a damage roll?

Because the stormsurge, a huge mechanical battlesuit made of metal (which we all know has a huge weakness to flessbane) with only two tiny organic pilot's in it is a gargantuan creature weapons due to it's being able to move with natural speed and agility.

However a scout sentinel, which is apparently clunky with no agilty (deapite in fluff being able to leap over small groups of zombies) is not all like a living creature (probably due to it's inverted knees).

The larger tau suits absolutely should be walker, riptides being the start as I don't see why Dark Eldar splinter rifles should "wound" it half the time.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

As far back as I can remember, monstrous creature vs walker was never about the damage it could take and how it reacts, its about how it inflicts damage and can move.

Then you haven't paid attention; because it absolutely has been about the damage it could take.

MCs are more resilient than vehicles which do not have access to any kind of saves. It's a simple fact.

I'm not talking rules, I'm talking fluff, which is what actually defines what something is classed as. Tau Suits have jetpacks, so they float and hover, instead of getting a big leap like Assault Marines. Land Speeders have anti-grav but can't fly, so they are skimmers, unlike Stormravens who became Flyers.

Daemon Prince, Tyranid MCs, Wraithlord, Wraithknight, Dreadknights, Riptides, Stormsurges and the new giant triple gun suit, Greater Daemons, Squiggoths of all sizes, Daemon Lords, Deldar Pain Engines, C'tan Shards, Tomb Stalkers/Sentinels. What's the common denominator? Their range of motion, even the more mechanical ones can move like living creatures.

Relative to

Dreadnoughts, War Walker, Sentinel, Deff Dread, Killa Kan, Orkanaught, Stompa, Knights and Titans, Decimator Daemon Engine, Defilers, Khorne Lord of Skulls. Which move clunkily and not at all like living creatures and have a limited range of motion.


Again, you could mention many Daemon Engines including Dinobots and Brass Scorpion, but again I note that they are Daemons and not bound by mortal bodies and so their "range of motion" when in their natural state is beyond our ability to comprehend, and are therefore limited by their mechanical bodies.

I don't give a flying feth about the fluff. What I care is how MCs can magically withstand 2-3X the punishment of an equivalent vehicle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
How is a riptide not a machine?

How does it emulate the natural movements of the wearer? (Last I checked, regular Fire Caste could neither fly nor had reverse jointed legs).

If it has a pilot, it is a vehicle.

It moves like a humanoid. It walks with natural speed and balance, its not a lumbering cumbersome box like a Dreadnought or Killa Kan. Its a bigger Crisis suit. Its very clearly capable of moving very quickly and naturally, whereas a Dreadnought isn't. That's the difference for me. How it moves.

And yes Tau have reverse jointed legs, look at their feet. Its easier to see on the larger model but the Tau are very consistant, their legs on their Fire Warriors and Crisis Suits and Broadsides and bigger suits are all the same.

How it moves shouldn't magically make it super durable.

Also, look up plantigrade and digitigrade.

Martel732 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

As far back as I can remember, monstrous creature vs walker was never about the damage it could take and how it reacts, its about how it inflicts damage and can move.

Then you haven't paid attention; because it absolutely has been about the damage it could take.

MCs are more resilient than vehicles which do not have access to any kind of saves. It's a simple fact.

I'm not talking rules, I'm talking fluff, which is what actually defines what something is classed as. Tau Suits have jetpacks, so they float and hover, instead of getting a big leap like Assault Marines. Land Speeders have anti-grav but can't fly, so they are skimmers, unlike Stormravens who became Flyers.

Daemon Prince, Tyranid MCs, Wraithlord, Wraithknight, Dreadknights, Riptides, Stormsurges and the new giant triple gun suit, Greater Daemons, Squiggoths of all sizes, Daemon Lords, Deldar Pain Engines, C'tan Shards, Tomb Stalkers/Sentinels. What's the common denominator? Their range of motion, even the more mechanical ones can move like living creatures.

Relative to

Dreadnoughts, War Walker, Sentinel, Deff Dread, Killa Kan, Orkanaught, Stompa, Knights and Titans, Decimator Daemon Engine, Defilers, Khorne Lord of Skulls. Which move clunkily and not at all like living creatures and have a limited range of motion.


Again, you could mention many Daemon Engines including Dinobots and Brass Scorpion, but again I note that they are Daemons and not bound by mortal bodies and so their "range of motion" when in their natural state is beyond our ability to comprehend, and are therefore limited by their mechanical bodies.

I don't give a flying feth about the fluff. What I care is how MCs can magically withstand 2-3X the punishment of an equivalent vehicle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
How is a riptide not a machine?

How does it emulate the natural movements of the wearer? (Last I checked, regular Fire Caste could neither fly nor had reverse jointed legs).

If it has a pilot, it is a vehicle.

It moves like a humanoid. It walks with natural speed and balance, its not a lumbering cumbersome box like a Dreadnought or Killa Kan. Its a bigger Crisis suit. Its very clearly capable of moving very quickly and naturally, whereas a Dreadnought isn't. That's the difference for me. How it moves.

And yes Tau have reverse jointed legs, look at their feet. Its easier to see on the larger model but the Tau are very consistant, their legs on their Fire Warriors and Crisis Suits and Broadsides and bigger suits are all the same.

How it moves shouldn't magically make it super durable.

Then that's a rules problem with MCs being so much more durable than Walkers, not with MC classification of those unit. As you say yourself, they are equivilents. In an ideal world it shouldn't make a difference if they are equally durable. The MC rules themselves don't even enhance the durability of a unit on its own, the supposed durability comes about because its relative how fragile vehicles in general are. If the 2 units were close enough in durability that it was entirely irrelevant, the argument wouldn't be whether they are MCs or shouldn't be, but rather, how to make them less powerful in general.

Therefore, stop trying to weaken so good units and try strengthening the weakest units (vehicles particularly walkers) to make them viable. I posted a suggestion above which will absolutely make vehicles more durable. Nomeny also suggested an alternative to the backward HP system we currently have, which while appreciated, I would like to point out would require adding 2 new damage types to the table, seeing as Glancing then can't strip hull points.