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Is their any explanation why we can't hit on 2s in CC? BS 5 models get to hit on 2s, BS 6 get to as well and then reroll failed hits at a chance to hit again on 6s.

Melee heavy armies already deal with the trouble of getting into CC(yes i know...our fault for choosing said army), but then at best we have a 50% chance to hit..with our best/higher stat models.

Yes I know it's harder for other models to hit higher WS models but it seems like you would be given the same chance to hit something as you do in the shooting phase going into the assault phase.

Because Tau and Eldar have to win with pew-pew. That's why.

Because whoever wrote that part of the BRB was an idiot.

 JusticarGames wrote:


Yes I know it's harder for other models to hit higher WS models

Not even that is true. You need to have MORE than double the WS. So your average 4 WS requires your opponent to be a whopping WS 9! Even if your WS 3 you'd still need to be WS 7 to avoid being hit.
As an examle, a chaos lord "only" has WS 6, but it's only ever mattered for hitting on 3's. The WS chart is a joke.

Roknar wrote:

 JusticarGames wrote:


Yes I know it's harder for other models to hit higher WS models

Not even that is true. You need to have MORE than double the WS. So your average 4 WS requires your opponent to be a whopping WS 9! Even if your WS 3 you'd still need to be WS 7 to avoid being hit.
As an examle, a chaos lord "only" has WS 6, but it's only ever mattered for hitting on 3's. The WS chart is a joke.

Glad I'm not the only one with these feels.

You do get to attack during the enemy's turn in melee, which was a slight advantage before overwatch was added. Still, I do wish that the CC table went fro 2+ to 6+; it'd REALLY make Tau fearful of getting CC'ed.

So the most dangerous thing in 40K isn't dangerous enough for people? Interesting.

Martel732 wrote:
Because Tau and Eldar have to win with pew-pew. That's why.

Except Eldar have very good close combat unit. Their biggest strength is high initiative and WS. It could improve their overall strength.

 Elbows wrote:
So the most dangerous thing in 40K isn't dangerous enough for people? Interesting.

How is it the most dangerous thing? It's easily the worst way of dealing damage.

 Elbows wrote:
So the most dangerous thing in 40K isn't dangerous enough for people? Interesting.

It's in no way the most dangerous thing.

But don't you know? there's a CHANCE that you MIGHT have the POSSIBILITY that you COULD destroy an entire unit in assault, therefor it's the most powerful thing in the game.

Nevermind that shooting has been able to do exactly that with none of the risks, but those poor gunlines need all the help they can get I guess.

There's a multitude of advantages CC has that shooting does not, such as the ability to lock actions, ignore all cover, auto hit rear armor, and yes, sweeping advance. These are very real and ver powerful abilities, so there's some drawbacks. The problem with CC is that delivery options are broken. Bring back the ability to assault out of a stationary closed top transport and you would see a lot more CC. The WS table isnt hugely crippling here, it didnt make much difference when CC was arguably more poweful than shooting in 3E and 4E.

 Vaktathi wrote:
There's a multitude of advantages CC has that shooting does not, such as the ability to lock actions, ignore all cover, auto hit rear armor, and yes, sweeping advance. These are very real and ver powerful abilities, so there's some drawbacks. The problem with CC is that delivery options are broken. Bring back the ability to assault out of a stationary closed top transport and you would see a lot more CC. The WS table isnt hugely crippling here, it didnt make much difference when CC was arguably more poweful than shooting in 3E and 4E.

I find it hard to say sweeping advance is that powerful due to the fact it can be difficult to do to Eldar and Necrons because of difficulty causing casualties and high initiative and Space Marines outright ignore it.

It is quite strange to have two different charts for ws and wounding. I would've thought combining them would be simplest.

Because shooting has 1 person to consider, the shooter. Melee also relies on you being better than you're opponent. You couldbe a better fighter than your squadmates (WS5 Company Champion vs WS4 Veterans) but a WS10 Avatar, an embodiment of a god of war, is still going to feth your gak up. In reverse, as good as you might be, a heroic Captain as WS6, being slightly better than the WS5 Champion, or even fairly better than the WS4 Veterans, isn't going to allow him to hit his opponent with ease. And even a WS3 Guardsman knows enough when fighting that Avatar to get the hell out of the way of that sword.

 Deadshot wrote:
Because shooting has 1 person to consider, the shooter. Melee also relies on you being better than you're opponent. You couldbe a better fighter than your squadmates (WS5 Company Champion vs WS4 Veterans) but a WS10 Avatar, an embodiment of a god of war, is still going to feth your gak up. In reverse, as good as you might be, a heroic Captain as WS6, being slightly better than the WS5 Champion, or even fairly better than the WS4 Veterans, isn't going to allow him to hit his opponent with ease. And even a WS3 Guardsman knows enough when fighting that Avatar to get the hell out of the way of that sword.

Conversely if I fight a ws9 unit (I'm going to use a Daemon Pricne because they're all I can think of) with my Avatar the chart stops making sense. It's just as easy for the Eldar war god to hit a Daemon Prince of Khorne as it is to hit a mere Grot cowering in fear.

I just think it makes more sense to have it be the same or be more similar to the wound chart.

pm713 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Because shooting has 1 person to consider, the shooter. Melee also relies on you being better than you're opponent. You couldbe a better fighter than your squadmates (WS5 Company Champion vs WS4 Veterans) but a WS10 Avatar, an embodiment of a god of war, is still going to feth your gak up. In reverse, as good as you might be, a heroic Captain as WS6, being slightly better than the WS5 Champion, or even fairly better than the WS4 Veterans, isn't going to allow him to hit his opponent with ease. And even a WS3 Guardsman knows enough when fighting that Avatar to get the hell out of the way of that sword.

Conversely if I fight a ws9 unit (I'm going to use a Daemon Pricne because they're all I can think of) with my Avatar the chart stops making sense. It's just as easy for the Eldar war god to hit a Daemon Prince of Khorne as it is to hit a mere Grot cowering in fear.

I just think it makes more sense to have it be the same or be more similar to the wound chart.

Those kind of disparities do break the cycle but at the same time I can't find another way to accurately represent the ability for enemies to fight back and use their own skill to make your model miss. BS works because its entirely down to the shooter's ability to read wind, gravity, speed, range, etc, and the target can only duck or pray. Melee is more vicious. I don't really like it myself, but I try to think of it as the grot being so small he ducks under the huge firey sword and lives, until the Avatar treads on him.

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Because shooting has 1 person to consider, the shooter. Melee also relies on you being better than you're opponent. You couldbe a better fighter than your squadmates (WS5 Company Champion vs WS4 Veterans) but a WS10 Avatar, an embodiment of a god of war, is still going to feth your gak up. In reverse, as good as you might be, a heroic Captain as WS6, being slightly better than the WS5 Champion, or even fairly better than the WS4 Veterans, isn't going to allow him to hit his opponent with ease. And even a WS3 Guardsman knows enough when fighting that Avatar to get the hell out of the way of that sword.

Conversely if I fight a ws9 unit (I'm going to use a Daemon Pricne because they're all I can think of) with my Avatar the chart stops making sense. It's just as easy for the Eldar war god to hit a Daemon Prince of Khorne as it is to hit a mere Grot cowering in fear.

I just think it makes more sense to have it be the same or be more similar to the wound chart.

Those kind of disparities do break the cycle but at the same time I can't find another way to accurately represent the ability for enemies to fight back and use their own skill to make your model miss. BS works because its entirely down to the shooter's ability to read wind, gravity, speed, range, etc, and the target can only duck or pray. Melee is more vicious. I don't really like it myself, but I try to think of it as the grot being so small he ducks under the huge firey sword and lives, until the Avatar treads on him.

It makes more sense to me that there's a more dramatic gap between ws levels as there is a greater difference in skill rather than having a god of war miss a third of his strikes due to what is probably luck.

You cant look at it as each attack literally corresponding to a single strike. There's too many things where that breaks down. Its better to look at attacks as a potential for casualty infliction. If an Avatar does a big sweep with his sword, he's only really striking once, but as he throws that broad strike the dudes at the end may hop away at the last second or he may have to pull his strike to cover a blow from another attacker or something like that. There's all sorts of stuff to consider.

 Vaktathi wrote:
as he throws that broad strike the dudes at the end may hop away at the last second

Yes, your I3 Guardsmen are definitely dodging that I10 Avatar.

or he may have to pull his strike to cover a blow from another attacker or something like that

Gotta make sure those lasgun bayonets don't hit your lava body. We all know that the most effective way of destroying molten lava is to hit it with your bayonet.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
as he throws that broad strike the dudes at the end may hop away at the last second

Yes, your I3 Guardsmen are definitely dodging that I10 Avatar.

or he may have to pull his strike to cover a blow from another attacker or something like that

Gotta make sure those lasgun bayonets don't hit your lava body. We all know that the most effective way of destroying molten lava is to hit it with your bayonet.

Int isn't just physical speed, its reaction time. Sure its highly unlikely, but not entirely impossible. Hop away is probably a bad term. As I said with the grot, perhaps the sword simply passed over the head of the puny creature, or one guardsman saw the blow and cowered pulling others with him.

As for lasgun bayonets, we're talking about humans charging a flaming war god. All they got is their bayonets, and if they get some hits in they will. Or they are getting charged, they'll try to fight back then run away.
Also an Avatar isn't molten, or lava. Its a statue that comes to life via possession. The flaming comes from the fact its a angry destructive god of war inside and his rage burns, but its not actually molten lava at all.

I'd like to see the WS table have more variation and range from 2-6s to hit. Then when that works right apply it to BS as well. So that way if you're BS3 shooting at a BS4 model it would be harder to hit them then if they were BS2. My justification for this is that a model who is skilled in ranged warfare would make better use of cover, move in an erratic manner, present a smaller profile in their passive stance, etc, etc.

If you like that then what about removing cover saves as a thing, instead rolling the benefits of cover into target BS modifiers. So say a model is in ruins it would receive +1 or 2 to it's ballistic skill when getting shot at, passively factoring in cover and still allowing armour saves as well. Gunlines would be hurt in a meaningful way even Tau would have more trouble. We could even go so far as to allow units who got shot at to snapfire back as if they had been assaulted.

Bring back the ability to assault out of a stationary closed top transport and you would see a lot more CC.

Hold up, they really removed that option? So units can only assault out of stationary Fast vehicles now?

 odorofdeath wrote:

Bring back the ability to assault out of a stationary closed top transport and you would see a lot more CC.

Hold up, they really removed that option? So units can only assault out of stationary Fast vehicles now?

You can't assault out of vehicles period. Unless they're assault or open topped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
as he throws that broad strike the dudes at the end may hop away at the last second

Yes, your I3 Guardsmen are definitely dodging that I10 Avatar.

or he may have to pull his strike to cover a blow from another attacker or something like that

Gotta make sure those lasgun bayonets don't hit your lava body. We all know that the most effective way of destroying molten lava is to hit it with your bayonet.

Int isn't just physical speed, its reaction time. Sure its highly unlikely, but not entirely impossible. Hop away is probably a bad term. As I said with the grot, perhaps the sword simply passed over the head of the puny creature, or one guardsman saw the blow and cowered pulling others with him.

As for lasgun bayonets, we're talking about humans charging a flaming war god. All they got is their bayonets, and if they get some hits in they will. Or they are getting charged, they'll try to fight back then run away.
Also an Avatar isn't molten, or lava. Its a statue that comes to life via possession. The flaming comes from the fact its a angry destructive god of war inside and his rage burns, but its not actually molten lava at all.

The Avatars body is fiery stuff. That's why things like Melta do nothing to it. Technically attacking it with a bayonet would be useless.

Anecdotal fluff sinerios aside, the real reason is probably because the WS chart is now 18 years old and they have never updated it regardless of what has happened.

18 years ago, the majority of shooting weapons were one or two shots, with 3 shots being fairly rare or vehicle mounted. While at the same time it was possible for certain HQ models to have 5 or so melee attacks on the charge. So limiting melee effectiveness, to keep inline with shooting effectiveness was a good idea. And for the most part it worked.

However, things have drastically changed over the years and shooting has become increasingly more powerful. Weapons have increased rate of fire, psychic powers have allowed rerolls, and now BS skills have risin. Conversely, the WS chart has remained static and while some characters and even just HQ models have increased their potential number of attacks, the WS chart hasn't really improved to keep track with the trend that shooting has. Yeah, they have been gifted higher WS stats in general, but due to the 18 year old chart, it now pretty much breaks the fluff.

 Deadshot wrote:

Also an Avatar isn't molten, or lava

Explain the name of its 'Molten Body' rule.

Just like to replace the Guardsman with a Tyrannofex who is WS 3, I3 and massive. Shouldn't be too hard to hit.

I dislike how the Hive Tyrant is easy pickings for a basic marine sergent with PF too.

But i think everyone has a point who's posted.The problem is at the source, GW needs rewriting from the base up. Fear is quite silly now as it doesn't do much as an example.

 Jayden63 wrote:
18 years ago, the majority of shooting weapons were one or two shots, with 3 shots being fairly rare or vehicle mounted. While at the same time it was possible for certain HQ models to have 5 or so melee attacks on the charge. So limiting melee effectiveness, to keep inline with shooting effectiveness was a good idea. And for the most part it worked.

I think it's even worse than that. The idea of WS goes all the way back to WHFB, where it made some sense to have melee combat be a roll between opposing stats. It's the same reason why there are so many melee-only stats on the basic unit profile. Now, with melee combat being a much less important part of the game, the system just doesn't make much sense anymore. It's no longer a heroic duel between opposing fighters, it's a dedicated melee unit rolling to see how many guardsmen it slaughters without taking any wounds in return.

 Imateria wrote:
Because whoever wrote that part of the BRB was an idiot.

It was not always that way. In Rogue Trader days, if you had 5 more WS than your opponent, you hit on 2s.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
as he throws that broad strike the dudes at the end may hop away at the last second

Yes, your I3 Guardsmen are definitely dodging that I10 Avatar.

Initiative isn't just raw speed, I10 doesn't mean something moves at the speed of light or even that of a bullet, it's representative of being able to act and take the initiative before one's opponent's, but doesn't mean you're so fast that you always hit.

or he may have to pull his strike to cover a blow from another attacker or something like that

Gotta make sure those lasgun bayonets don't hit your lava body. We all know that the most effective way of destroying molten lava is to hit it with your bayonet.

Who knows what it might be, a bayonet, a powerfist, or a krak grenade. The Avatar is not completely immune to physical damage, and blocking is sometimes intelligent even for very large and powerful combatants.

These are examples of some of the infinite reasons why 1A doesn't actually equal 1 physical strike and why looking at WS through that lense doesn't work. Even in an actual swordfight, you may make some sort of contact and fail to make an impact. Maybe it was the flat of the blade, maybe it hit too close in beyond the point of percussion to really make that impact felt properly. Alternatively to kill one person you may throw three different blows, all executed in about a second, but they're all really one attack. Maybe the damn monster just made a giant sweep attack and mistook the measure by a couple inches and missed the last guy, etc ad nauseum.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Initiative isn't just raw speed, I10 doesn't mean something moves at the speed of light or even that of a bullet, it's representative of being able to act and take the initiative before one's opponent's, but doesn't mean you're so fast that you always hit.

I10 is as fast as it is possible to be in 40k. Considering the size of the galaxy, that has to be something better than your average soldier is going to be able to land a hit on.

Who knows what it might be, a bayonet, a powerfist, or a krak grenade. The Avatar is not completely immune to physical damage, and blocking is sometimes intelligent even for very large and powerful combatants.

But the guardsmen squads I see don't have krak grenades, or powerfists...

See, this is what I am talking about when I say that the game buffs the guardsmen to an extreme degree compared to the lore (in everything but points costs which do not exist in the lore anyway). Things that would be instant death for them (say, Destroyer weapons) are still given a chance to fail because 'it was a miss' or 'it was a flesh wound' or something, even if you do indeed successfully roll to hit and a hit would not so much kill the guardsman as remove him and the plaza he stands on from existence. Meanwhile, things that bayonets would never be able to do anything against (such as the walking lava demigod, the Avatar) are still given a chance to wound it because of that 'one-in-a-million eye socket stab' thing, except it isn't one in a million in-game, it is 17%.

If Space Marines were buffed to the same degree compared to their lore, you would be absolutely outraged.