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It makes no sense that the Emperor would allow Malcador the Sigilite
to create the Grey Knighs if they where created as a bunt religious nutcases.
The Emperor didn't approve of religion looking what he did to the Emperiors Heralds and Logar.

The Fluff stated that The Emperor charged Malcador with
creating an organization of investigators
that accidentally become the Inquisition.

The Grey Knigh fluff, takes the the same story and turn that into Malcador presenting
the Emperor with religious Space Marines who are the best of the best
who gets his blessing and Malcador then play around with their gene seed.
Why would Malcador create Space Marines, his personality is based on
a trust in ordinary weak humans which is his rationale for the religion thing.

I don't mind Grey Knights , I do have problems with their backstory and they way it cancels other stuff out.
For me it looks like the writer just let Malcador do alot of stuff that have very little to do with eachother
and malcador makes the Imperium under the Emperor look as if it worked the same way current Imperium functions.

First the Sigilite is supposed to indicate the symbol of the "I"
and how the inquisition and the church came from very different organizations.
Second grey knigh is a play on "white knight" and "black knight",
meaning that the Grey Knights should have some flaw, but they don't appear to have any,

1.
Grey Knights having lots of super strong psykers.
This is done just to make them more powerful.
If they have lots of super strong psykers they should be distrusted
and have huge difficulties controlling their sanity.
Or they should be so dependent on their fat in the Emperor
to resist chaos that that they have some sort of flaw
like rigidity or at least a scary personality.
The Emperor don't TRUST Psykers.
The Emperor would treat the Grey Knights just as gakky as
the Thausands Sons.


2.
The Emperors own gene seed,
One of the fluff stuff states this.
This would insist that the Emperor is a Space Marine Primarch with unkown creator
and not just an powerful psyker.

3.
The Grey Knights are described the same way the costudes are.
They steal the role from the Costudes.
The Costudes used to be extra powerful to protect Emperor
and because they had a personal more direct bond to the Emperor
and because they where simply better made and made from better recruits.
Why the hell would the Emperor let Malcador create some psyker
space marine army to replace the army of costudes he already got?

----
My suggestion is to make the Grey Knights loyalists Word Bearers.
After the Emperor was put on the golden throne and unable to Protest
Malcador stretch out a hand to the few remaining loyalist word bearers
saying that if they come back they can keep their religion thing.
Malcadors ideology is the same as the loyalist word bearers.
because of their stain they would no longer be the white space marines
but embrace grey.
the reason they are so elite is because only the most powerful baddasses
where offered a second chance.
Their flaw should be that their high psyker power
requires a fanatic faith in the emperor to keep them from chaos
and therefore they follow a chivaleric code of honorable stupid.

This would explain why the Grey knights where hidden or out of sight for so long
and would stop them from taking the costudes place in the fluff.
The Grey knights would only appear after
the Costudes locked themselves in with the Emperor in the Emperial Palace.

The Grey Knights aren't mentioned anywhere to be religious. In fact most of what I've read states that Space Marines don't even view him as a deity but more of a venerated ancestor. Except the Black Templars.

But GK are the most pragmatic Marines. If Daemons need killing, they will quite literally move Heaven and Earth to do it, and if that means squatting in a cathedral 9 hours a day because it kills Daemons then they'll squat in that cathedral for 9 hours a day.

But they're not overly religious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More to come;.

[edit] probably not but we can never know can we ; )

They are "Grey knights" because they don't deal in Black or White. They are evil in some sense because they readily kill off planets to destroy 1 Daemon. But in that they are also good because that 1 Daemon left alone puts the whole material universe at risk. They aren't good or bad, they are pragmatic. Also, they wear silver (shiny grey) armour as symbolic protection and to mimic ancient medieval Knights, as symbolism has a profound effect on Daemons.

1. The Emperor didn't want the Thousand Sons playing around with stuff they didn't understand. He didn't hate the T-Sons either, he just banned their warp magic with the Edict of Nikea after a long long courtroom debate. He didn't order their destruction either, he ordered their arrest. He just followed his own laws and given the chance to hear from Magnus' own lips the truth things might've went different.
The GK were personally approved by the Emperor and are trained to be completely safe. Their recruitment rate is about 1 success per 1 million potentials, and only of those psykers in the Imperium that are below the age of 15 or so and male and are potential Space Marines, and then each GK has to go through training such that only a perfect specimen in all aspects will ever be a Grey Knight. Grey Knights are about the safest bet to make.

2. Uh, no. Geneseed is a genetic blueprint. The blueprint gives you the genome samples with which to clone the implants for Space Marines. For the Legions the Emperor used a test-tube baby made from his own DNA and then grew organs from their DNA, while for the GK he skipped the testtube baby and just made them from his own DNA.

3. Uhh again, no. The Custodes are hand made by the Emperor in a test tube like the Primarchs. Space Marines take regular humans and implant then with organs, GK as well. The GK were made to fight and kill Daemons. The Custodes are bodyguards. They are not even similar except that they are above normal Space Marines and below Primarchs (although some Custodes are nearly on that level).

And finally, just no. I'm assuming this is a troll thread or you've just literally started the hobby today because the only accurate thing in your post is that the Emperor didn't want religion in the Imperium.

 Deadshot wrote:
They are "Grey knights" because they don't deal in Black or White. They are evil in some sense because they readily kill off planets to destroy 1 Daemon. But in that they are also good because that 1 Daemon left alone puts the whole material universe at risk. They aren't good or bad, they are pragmatic. Also, they wear silver (shiny grey) armour as symbolic protection and to mimic ancient medieval Knights, as symbolism has a profound effect on Daemons.

1. The Emperor didn't want the Thousand Sons playing around with stuff they didn't understand. He didn't hate the T-Sons either, he just banned their warp magic with the Edict of Nikea after a long long courtroom debate. He didn't order their destruction either, he ordered their arrest. He just followed his own laws and given the chance to hear from Magnus' own lips the truth things might've went different.
The GK were personally approved by the Emperor and are trained to be completely safe. Their recruitment rate is about 1 success per 1 million potentials, and only of those psykers in the Imperium that are below the age of 15 or so and male and are potential Space Marines, and then each GK has to go through training such that only a perfect specimen in all aspects will ever be a Grey Knight. Grey Knights are about the safest bet to make.

2. Uh, no. Geneseed is a genetic blueprint. The blueprint gives you the genome samples with which to clone the implants for Space Marines. For the Legions the Emperor used a test-tube baby made from his own DNA and then grew organs from their DNA, while for the GK he skipped the testtube baby and just made them from his own DNA.

3. Uhh again, no. The Custodes are hand made by the Emperor in a test tube like the Primarchs. Space Marines take regular humans and implant then with organs, GK as well. The GK were made to fight and kill Daemons. The Custodes are bodyguards. They are not even similar except that they are above normal Space Marines and below Primarchs (although some Custodes are nearly on that level).

And finally, just no. I'm assuming this is a troll thread or you've just literally started the hobby today because the only accurate thing in your post is that the Emperor didn't want religion in the Imperium.

This is my answer to every point OP has made. It's widely held that the original Grey Knights (the 8 Grand Masters) were developed from the Knights Errant, whose ranks *may* have had Word Bearers in them. However, suggesting that the ENTIRE Grey Knights Chapter is Word Bearers is not particularly valid.
The Word Bearers don't have any particular preference on psykers (more on sorcerers instead - in that way being more similar to the Space Wolves).
The Grey Knights are not religious - they merely use holy items because they work. Most Space Marines are not actually religious, but instead venerate the Emperor as a paragon of men. If the Grey Knights were demonstrated to be the best hope the Imperium had against the growing Daemonic threat, I cannot see why the vastly pragmatic Emperor would not sanction it.
The other glaring points were addressed by Deadshot. Suffice to say, I doubt your argument is correct.

Forge World pretty much came out and said it: Knight-Errants ARE the Grey Knights.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Forge World pretty much came out and said it: Knight-Errants ARE the Grey Knights.

what's the quote? it's pretty clear from the HH novels that the Grey Knights sort of evolved from the Knights errant, but there's a lot of circumstancial evidance to suggest that the knights errant may not have BECOME Grey Knights.

Yes and no. The original eight grand masters are probably the Knights-Errant - or at least, are some of the Knights-Errant, depending on who survives and who gets recruited between 'now' and the siege of Terra.

The thousand-odd battle brothers that form the bulk of the Grey Knights - no. Malcador recruited a few dudes for special operations, not an entire astartes battalion.

Malcador is secreting away gene-engines and bio-labs to Titan in the Shield of Lies audio-book, which is how he 'bulks' the initial cadre up to chapter strength.

The most likely source for them is the 'pure' geneseed that the Raven Guard recover in Deliverance Lost - it's supposed to be incredibly fast-maturing, and able to be implanted with incredibly high success probability, before it all goes horribly wrong. What actually happened, though, wasn't a problem with the prototype geneseed; it was the Alpha Legion sabotaging it and stealing the original.

Given that there are continuous hints that one faction of the Alpha Legion (probably Omegon's) is actually secretly loyalist, this heritage-free geneseed might well prove the starting stock the Grey Knights work from.

I can't remember of the top of my head what happens to Barthusa Narek. It's possible there's at least one loyalist word bearer floating round out there with non-trivial Daemonological knowledge.... He might end up as part of the knights.

It's hard to distrust somebody when you don't know they exist.
Still,the Grey Knights are distrusted.
Most Space Marine Chapters are unaware of them but when they do come into contact for whatever reason...well, nobody likes being ordered about by people who 'don't exist' and usually express sentiments of that nature before getting mind wiped.

The Space Wolves both hate and tolerate them, which is pretty much the way Space Wolves feel about everyone but being the only Marine Chapter with Chapter wide knowledge of the Grey Knights they're probably the only Chapter with a formed opinion on the matter.

Wouldn't be the first time a traitor legion kept ties and service to the Imperium, so the idea that they're actually Word Bearers holds merit, you'd have to spin a pretty good tale to fluff justify it though.

How did Grey Knights steal the custodes job? Grey Knights were built to fight daemons, not protect the Emperor.

Even then, Word Bearers betraying Lorgar and being accepted back into the Imperium is ridiculously rare.

Leave the Grey Knights as is, they're fine.

And the Emperor isn't a primarch, by geneseed it pretty much means either genes extracted from the Emperor or baby making juice.

I dont think you can have got it much more wrong than you have.

If I had the time and effort I would split your opening into sections and explain but in general I would suggest that everytime you have made a statement as to what something is... it isnt. And everytime you have made a statement as to what something isnt... it is.

klaswullt wrote:
It makes no sense that the Emperor would allow Malcador the Sigilite to create the Grey Knighs if they where created as a bunt religious nutcases.

But the Grey Knights are not religious nutcases.

klaswullt wrote:
The Emperor didn't approve of religion...

This is true, but because of the aforementioned correction, this has no bearing on the Grey Knights.

klaswullt wrote:
The Fluff stated that The Emperor charged Malcador with creating an organization of investigators that accidentally become the Inquisition.

I don't think it was ever an accident that they turned into the Inquisition.

klaswullt wrote:
The Grey Knigh fluff, takes the the same story and turn that into Malcador presenting the Emperor with religious Space Marines who are the best of the best who gets his blessing and Malcador then play around with their gene seed.

Where did you get the idea that Malcador could play around with their gene-seed?

klaswullt wrote:
1. Grey Knights having lots of super strong psykers. This is done just to make them more powerful. If they have lots of super strong psykers they should be distrusted and have huge difficulties controlling their sanity. Or they should be so dependent on their fat in the Emperor to resist chaos that that they have some sort of flaw like rigidity or at least a scary personality. The Emperor don't TRUST Psykers. The Emperor would treat the Grey Knights just as gakky as the Thausands Sons.

(i) I'm fairly sure that become more powerful as a result of the relatively high occurrence of psykers within the Grey Knights is not the intended outcome, but more a desirable bi-product thereof.
(ii) In terms of being found untrustworthy, I'm fairly sure they are not trusted by many of those who know about them.
(iii) As Deadshot explained, the difficulties that they would otherwise face because of their nature is weeded out during the selection and training processes. Also, the fact that none have fallen to Chaos is testament to this.
(iv) No, The Emperor would not treat the Grey Knights as "poorly" as he did the Thousands Son (I put quotation marks in because I'm not entirely convinced that The Emperor treated the Thousand Sons poorly) because not only did he personally approve their creation, but they also used his own gene-seed as opposed to using one of his sons' gene-seed stock. "The Emperor doesn't trust psykers and thus would treat the Grey Knights poorly. is not only over-simplified logic but also completely wrong.

klaswullt wrote:
2. The Emperors own gene seed, One of the fluff stuff states this. This would insist that the Emperor is a Space Marine Primarch with unkown creator and not just an powerful psyker.

Why would that imply that he is a Primarch? Also, it is incredibly well established that The Emperor created the Primarchs (who are effectively his sons), ergo he cannot be a Primarch. Take a look at this page.

klaswullt wrote:
3. The Grey Knights are described the same way the costudes are. They steal the role from the Costudes. The Costudes used to be extra powerful to protect Emperor and because they had a personal more direct bond to the Emperor and because they where simply better made and made from better recruits. Why the hell would the Emperor let Malcador create some psyker space marine army to replace the army of costudes he already got?

They are not describe in the same way Custodes are. They do not steal the Custodes' job. The Grey Knights were never designed or intended to replace the Custodes. They are two very separate and very difference branches of the Imperium.

klaswullt wrote:
My suggestion is to make the Grey Knights loyalists Word Bearers. After the Emperor was put on the golden throne and unable to Protest Malcador stretch out a hand to the few remaining loyalist word bearers saying that if they come back they can keep their religion thing. Malcadors ideology is the same as the loyalist word bearers. because of their stain they would no longer be the white space marines but embrace grey. the reason they are so elite is because only the most powerful baddasses where offered a second chance. Their flaw should be that their high psyker power requires a fanatic faith in the emperor to keep them from chaos and therefore they follow a chivaleric code of honorable stupid.

But this flies in the face of so much fluff such as the fact that Malcador died almost immediately after being removed from the Golden Throne at the end of the Horus Heresy and the fact that the Grey Knights use The Emperor's gene-seed stock (not Lorgar's).

klaswullt wrote:
This would explain why the Grey knights where hidden or out of sight for so long and would stop them from taking the costudes place in the fluff. The Grey knights would only appear after the Costudes locked themselves in with the Emperor in the Emperial Palace.

Again, this is based off of false logic and complete and utter fallacies.


So as Deadshot said: This is either a troll thread or you really need to do your research. Either way, I had a bit of fun critiquing as well as forming a recommendation based on the assumption that this isn't a troll thread: Jump on the Warhammer 40,000 Wikia and Lexicanum. These should help you with finding out more about the 40K universe as well as further establishing why almost everything you said in the original post is wrong.

P.S. Why is the formatting of your original post all funky?

I so fething love this discussion, I love all of it.
You got to admit this is a REAL discussion.
I am going to answer to everyhthing but right now I just say this;

FIrst, it's clear that the Emperor cannot make geneeseed from himself,
because the geneseed has to be taken form a Primarch.
The Primarchs are not test versions, they are the first actual step.
The Primarch where intented as the actual army
and they where hard to make
and all of the Empereors work was destroyed so
he couldn't recreate the Primarch.
But he had geneseed from the Primarch that where meant as spareparts
and maybe healthy and quality test samples.
Just that the Emp made these creatures from his own DNA
doesn't mean he can make Space Marines from his own DNA
because he is NOT a primarch.
The person with DNA from the Emperor would just be a very powerfull psyker
like the Senpai or Sinai or whatever the retconned sons of the Emp are called.
..
what I am trying to say is that if the Emp could make Space Marines
by skipping Primarchs then the Primarchs would be useless
and the Primarchs wouldn't be the Emperors sons
and his only sons.
The tradgedy of the Primarch Project would be completly downplayed.

FIrst, it's clear that the Emperor cannot make geneeseed from himself,
because the geneseed has to be taken form a Primarch.

The Primarchs were created with the Emperor's own genetic template (among other things), so he's got a genetic matrix that can be used to create space marines. Primarch does not mean "creator of space marines". Your logic is completely flawed from the beginning. It's not because Space Marines were made from Primarchs that they cannot be made from the Emperor. They were derived from the 20 Primarchs so that they could have diversity and gain increased power from that as Legions.

Just that the Emp made these creatures from his own DNA
doesn't mean he can make Space Marines from his own DNA
because he is NOT a primarch.

Why wouldn't he be able to make Space Marines from his own DNA ? He created Primarchs as degraded versions of each aspects of himself. There's nothing they can do that is out of his reach. He is the greatest genetician in the history of Mankind and creating Space Marines based off himself would be MUCH easier than to create a single Primarch.

The person with DNA from the Emperor would just be a very powerfull psyker
like the Senpai or Sinai or whatever the retconned sons of the Emp are called.

The Sensei are the biological sons of the Emperor, they are not powerful psyker are they are Blanks/Pariah, the absolute opposite of a psyker. Primarchs are not biological sons, they are closer to manipulated clones. And Space Marines themselves are not biological sons of their Primarch, they are enhanced humans. So it's completely normal to get 3 very different results if you use 3 completely different methods of "conception".

what I am trying to say is that if the Emp could make Space Marines
by skipping Primarchs then the Primarchs would be useless

No, because Primarchs were PLANNED as superlative generals, warriors, leaders and commander of space marines. If he hadn't the need for Primarchs, he owuld have just continued to make Thunder Warriors and improve them instead.

klaswullt wrote:
I so fething love this discussion, I love all of it.
You got to admit this is a REAL discussion.

Honestly, not really. A lot of your points are based on simply false points, which we're trying to correct.

FIrst, it's clear that the Emperor cannot make geneeseed from himself,
because the geneseed has to be taken form a Primarch.

Except the Emperor made the Primarchs from HIS DNA/geneseed. If he couldn't do that, the Primarchs couldn't exist.

The Primarchs are not test versions, they are the first actual step.
The Primarch where intented as the actual army
and they where hard to make
and all of the Empereors work was destroyed so
he couldn't recreate the Primarch.

Part correct. The Primarchs were the first step. They were also the last.
The Emperor wanted to make Primarchs to lead his armies. The Primarchs were deliberately made to lead his armies, such as Horus and Guilliman. They'd never be the full army.

But he had geneseed from the Primarch that where meant as spareparts
and maybe healthy and quality test samples.

He used the byproducts of the Primarchs to make their own Legions, hence the similarities between each Legion and their Primarch. Some were healthier than others (looking at you, Space Wolves and Blood Angels).

Just that the Emp made these creatures from his own DNA
doesn't mean he can make Space Marines from his own DNA
because he is NOT a primarch.

If he can make STRONGER induviduals with his DNA, he can surely make weaker ones. He is the most accomplished scientist in humanity. If anyone could do it, he could. If he wanted Legions of Primarchs, why would he make it so ONLY he could create more Primarchs, instead of making the Legins self-sufficient? It's outright stated in Grey Knight canon that it's his DNA that courses through their veins
.

The person with DNA from the Emperor would just be a very powerfull psyker
like the Senpai or Sinai or whatever the retconned sons of the Emp are called.

The Sensei are also retconned.

what I am trying to say is that if the Emp could make Space Marines
by skipping Primarchs then the Primarchs would be useless
and the Primarchs wouldn't be the Emperors sons
and his only sons.
The tradgedy of the Primarch Project would be completly downplayed.

The Primarchs were meant to LEAD the infantry. That's why they were stronger, in order to survive and act as a figurehead.

What tragedy of the Primarch Project are you thinking of? The only one I am aware of is the fact the Emperor didn't give them all the care and nurture they needed because of his overconfidence in his sons.

I think he tragedy he's talking about is them getting scattered by the gods.

It is a common misconception that the Emperor is some sort of arch-atheist. He isn't. He knows full well that Warp Gods exist, and he hates them. This is why he instructed people not to believe in them at all. However, while he was walking around on Terra during the Great Crusade, there were billions of people already worshiping him as a god. He did nothing to stop them.

The main problem with the Word Bearers was that they were designed (and instructed) to be a conquering army. That they were spending years conquering worlds and then building massive temples and such was taking too much time, causing that aspect of the Crusade to slow to a crawl. This is what got them in trouble. They could have been building museums and war memorials for all the Emperor cared, the problem was that, whatever they were building, it was taking far too long to complete, which ran counter to his plans.

As far as Space Marines in the modern era of 40k goes? There's a lot that have close ties to the Ecclesiarchy and the Imperial Creed:

The Fire Hawks are one, prior to becoming the LotD, having been one of the first to the fight during the Age of Apostasy, in support of Sebastian Thor (and did, in fact, get awarded a Heresy-era Battle Barge by him, iirc, as Vandire had destroyed their homeworld). (IA v9, C:UM 2E, WH40K Comp, WD 99, C:Assassins 3E)

The Adulators were mentioned in a Chapter Approved article, of which it is said (according to Lexicanum) "The chapter is steeped in the ways of the Ecclesiarchy and are on close terms with their holy orders". (Chapter Approved 2001, Blood of Asaheim(BL) )

The Angels Revenant were said to be "stern supporters of the Imperial Creed". (Chapter Approved 2001, IA v12)

The White Consuls also worship the Emperor as a god, which is noted for being unusual for the Astartes. (WH40K BRB 5E, C:UM, C: EoT, DW: Rites of Battle, C: SM 6E ebook)

The Doom Eagles are "notoriously pious". (DW: Honour the Chapter, Legends of the Space Marines anthology, several BL novels/stories)

The Fire Angels (a UM Successor) are zealously dedicated to the Creed. Of them, it is said, "they do not revere their ancestral primarch (Roboute Guilliman) as most chapters do, believing this to be a form of idolatry". (IA v9)

The Red Scorpions, who developed the Helios-pattern Land Raider, are seriously in the Emp-worshiping camp. (IA v4, v6, v7, v9, WD 101, WD 105)

And then there are the Storm Wardens, from FFG's Deathwatch RPG. Not a GW Chapter, obviously, but one more for the pile.

One can make arguments for the Angels Resplendent/Angels Penitent, the Brazen Skulls, the Celebrants, the Crimson Fists, the Templars of Blood, and the Novamarines, though these Chapters are not outright said to worship the God-Emperor (but elements to what lore there is about them suggests such an arrangement).

Engrenages wrote:

FIrst, it's clear that the Emperor cannot make geneeseed from himself,
because the geneseed has to be taken form a Primarch.

The Primarchs were created with the Emperor's own genetic template (among other things), so he's got a genetic matrix that can be used to create space marines. Primarch does not mean "creator of space marines". Your logic is completely flawed from the beginning. It's not because Space Marines were made from Primarchs that they cannot be made from the Emperor. They were derived from the 20 Primarchs so that they could have diversity and gain increased power from that as Legions.

You just made that up didn't you. The Primarch became different by unknown reasons or because of the taint of Chaos.
No my logic is the correct one. Primarchs are the fathers of the legions
and the Emperor DOESN'T HAVE GENESEED because only Primarch
or another breed of Space Marines have geneseed with all the implants.
The hole things can't be created from nothing.

The Emperor has something special with his genes
but the cannon is clear, What Emperor is is nothing like a space marine.

The Emperor does''t have the organs that are needed to implant into space marines genes creates.
The Primarch are unique and the results of centuries of research called the Primarch Project.
The Emperior could never again recreate the Primarch Project
because all research was destroyed at the same time as chaos chattered the baby Primarch across the galaxy.
The Primarchs are only way to create a legion of space marines
because the space marine legions where never intended to be.
The Intention was to create an entire army of Primarchs not puny
super soldiers created by implanting things into elite breed human children.
All that the Emperor has left of the only way to create his sone because he is infertile.
was what became geneseed so NO. there is NO way the Emperor created any Chapter
based on his space marine organs that he does not possess.

Engrenages wrote:

Just that the Emp made these creatures from his own DNA
doesn't mean he can make Space Marines from his own DNA
because he is NOT a primarch.

Why wouldn't he be able to make Space Marines from his own DNA ? He created Primarchs as degraded versions of each aspects of himself. There's nothing they can do that is out of his reach. He is the greatest genetician in the history of Mankind and creating Space Marines based off himself would be MUCH easier than to create a single Primarch.

I am going to repeat myself.
Yes the Emperor is an super intelligent immortal scientist dictator I agree, but the Primarch project was one of his life works,
an superhuman achievement that he could never do again.
All Primarch Project research was lost when Chaos scattered the Primarchs.
The geneseeds are spareparts that he had to use because he couldn't begin again from scratch.
He could take geenseed from other primarch and alter or improve them however he liked
but he could not make gen seed directly from himself.
But the biggest problem is style, they look exactly like Space Marines and they are Space Marines.
The Emperor created
the original custodes to have the role of being super super soldiers
that manages and kills lesser super soldiers.
It's only after the Emperor was put on the golden throne
that the custodes stopped fighting wars and became
caretakers isolated in the golden palace.

Because the geneseed is not just any gen-modification thing, there are lots of gene modified super creatures
but the Space Marines genetically engineering implants are nearly unique.
All research of the Primarch project was lost even during the Emperors time
that is why there are lots of plots about searching for the secret of the Primarch project.
The Emperor is NOT a space marine and he doesn't have implants.

Engrenages wrote:

The person with DNA from the Emperor would just be a very powerfull psyker
like the Senpai or Sinai or whatever the retconned sons of the Emp are called.

The Sensei are the biological sons of the Emperor, they are not powerful psyker are they are Blanks/Pariah, the absolute opposite of a psyker. Primarchs are not biological sons, they are closer to manipulated clones. And Space Marines themselves are not biological sons of their Primarch, they are enhanced humans. So it's completely normal to get 3 very different results if you use 3 completely different methods of "conception".

The Sensei are a bad idea, I am glad GM realized it and excluded them from cannon.
I can accept they them as super Psykers nothing else makes any sense
since the Pariahs are supposed to be a necron thing.

The Primarchs are the Emperors ONLY SONS and they are all clones of the Emperor.
That is cannon fluff so The Primarchs are the biological and symbolic Sons of the Emperor
because the Emperor is infertile because of his psyker power.
I disagree, the Space Marines have no emotional connection with their human origin
so I would say that the genes they share from the gene seed is their true family legacy
and the fluff clearly states that Primarch and their descendants have a emotional
bond that is almost a hive mind because they have a family line mentality
and when each legion first meet their Primarch they instantly identify and
form a scary family.
The little genes they have from their human origin are more like the genes from the mother and the genes from
the father with the Space marine genes always being dominant.

Engrenages wrote:

what I am trying to say is that if the Emp could make Space Marines
by skipping Primarchs then the Primarchs would be useless

No, because Primarchs were PLANNED as superlative generals, warriors, leaders and commander of space marines. If he hadn't the need for Primarchs, he owuld have just continued to make Thunder Warriors and improve them instead.

They where not. The Primarch where not planned as generals in that sense but they where planned as warriors.
If you have an army of super soldiers you want every soldier to also have leadership skills
because if the higher ranking officer dies the next ranking officer can take over and continue the mission
even if the old boss just died. Also making all warriors possible leaders can overlap with making
them work better together if they can understand the roles they are supposed to have.

They where intended to supersoldiers in an army of "would be what the legions of space marines
are to the imperial guard is what that army would be to the legions of Space Marines".
The Primarch are not some pansy plan for generals, this screams of your projection.
You look at the game and assume that everything always was like it is now
but I think "everything was planned from the beginning" is the same as killing all fluff.
It's not cannon and it's not a good story, a good story is about a story of how things came to be as they are
and a bad story is "it's always been this way and don't you dare say it makes no sense".

Your comment doesn't make sense about the thunder warrior, how would keeping the thunder warriors which would be out of character mean exclude Primarchs
in your version? Because you stated that Primarchs are generals and not the army and in your version it would make
more sense if the Planned General Primarchs just commanded the Thunder Warriors who where just designed as troops??
He exterminated the army of thunder warriors to make room for an army of Primarch which was replaced
by an army of space marines and when he got the few Primarch they became fathers and generals of
their long lost family instead.

Again you just made that up with the thunder warriors. The fluff states he exterminated the thunder warriors because they where dangerous
and couldn't control themselves.
.

 Psienesis wrote:
It is a common misconception that the Emperor is some sort of arch-atheist. He isn't. He knows full well that Warp Gods exist, and he hates them. This is why he instructed people not to believe in them at all. However, while he was walking around on Terra during the Great Crusade, there were billions of people already worshiping him as a god. He did nothing to stop them.

I didn't know the Emperor let people believe in the Lograr stuff on Terra and that he did nothing.
Where is that coming from?,I am going to assume that is true.
The Emperor was a superatheist. The fluff is pretty clear and there is no reliable way to spin that
but there is plenty of room for the Imperial Creed in space marines
as long as it happens after the Emperor is put on the golden throne
and the church usurp his leadership.

The Emperor exterminated all religions on Earth, that is very very Stalin of him.
The only argument for Emperor being OK with the Imperial Creed
is that he existed in ancient human history and was involved with all the religions and mythologies
by fighting deamons and xenos the humans believe where supernatural.
I never understood why any of this means he would be motivated to strangle Jesus in his crib
since was just hanging around on earth back then and wasn't planning on being a world leader.

The people on Terra who worshiped him as a gods where a cult who suddenly appeared and spread
and it was created by Logar.
The Emperor did things against people who worshiped him but not all the time.
That he ignored people instead of purging them is a bad argument saying he was OK,
maybe he just didn't want to put them into concentration camps
before he was certain there was no other way to regain control.
He had the Iterators walking around and he did insist on the Imperial Truth
that he was not a God and it was science all the way.

 Psienesis wrote:

The main problem with the Word Bearers was that they were designed (and instructed) to be a conquering army. That they were spending years conquering worlds and then building massive temples and such was taking too much time, causing that aspect of the Crusade to slow to a crawl. This is what got them in trouble. They could have been building museums and war memorials for all the Emperor cared, the problem was that, whatever they were building, it was taking far too long to complete, which ran counter to his plans.

 Psienesis wrote:

As far as Space Marines in the modern era of 40k goes? There's a lot that have close ties to the Ecclesiarchy and the Imperial Creed:

The Fire Hawks are one, prior to becoming the LotD, having been one of the first to the fight during the Age of Apostasy, in support of Sebastian Thor (and did, in fact, get awarded a Heresy-era Battle Barge by him, iirc, as Vandire had destroyed their homeworld). (IA v9, C:UM 2E, WH40K Comp, WD 99, C:Assassins 3E)

The Adulators were mentioned in a Chapter Approved article, of which it is said (according to Lexicanum) "The chapter is steeped in the ways of the Ecclesiarchy and are on close terms with their holy orders". (Chapter Approved 2001, Blood of Asaheim(BL) )

The Angels Revenant were said to be "stern supporters of the Imperial Creed". (Chapter Approved 2001, IA v12)

The White Consuls also worship the Emperor as a god, which is noted for being unusual for the Astartes. (WH40K BRB 5E, C:UM, C: EoT, DW: Rites of Battle, C: SM 6E ebook)

The Doom Eagles are "notoriously pious". (DW: Honour the Chapter, Legends of the Space Marines anthology, several BL novels/stories)

The Fire Angels (a UM Successor) are zealously dedicated to the Creed. Of them, it is said, "they do not revere their ancestral primarch (Roboute Guilliman) as most chapters do, believing this to be a form of idolatry". (IA v9)

The Red Scorpions, who developed the Helios-pattern Land Raider, are seriously in the Emp-worshiping camp. (IA v4, v6, v7, v9, WD 101, WD 105)

And then there are the Storm Wardens, from FFG's Deathwatch RPG. Not a GW Chapter, obviously, but one more for the pile.

One can make arguments for the Angels Resplendent/Angels Penitent, the Brazen Skulls, the Celebrants, the Crimson Fists, the Templars of Blood, and the Novamarines, though these Chapters are not outright said to worship the God-Emperor (but elements to what lore there is about them suggests such an arrangement).

I fething agree on ALL THIS. No seriously I agree.
I knew the fluff stated that most Space Marines don't see Emperor as a good but as ledgend of a man
but then you read all those and you encounter all manner Space Marines characters who
act the other way.
I like the Dark Angels Codex as an example.

I am just saying they should all place the origin of themselves or the point where they started to believe in the Imperial Creed
some point after the Church and the Imperial Creed took over or became the default belief of the Imperium.

Is there actually any chapter except the Space Wolves where everyone is into the secular Imperial Truth camps?
I think it seems like it's more of an individual choice.

First of all, on topic of the Primarchs being created from the Emperor's own gene coding.

They ARE product of his own genes. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Primarch
Read the second line: "The Emperor used his own DNA in their creation". Lexicanum is our best source of compiled canon data. If you want actual literature that outright state just from where the genetic source of the primarch comes, then read The First Heretic and Deliverance Lost. Both novels outright state this fact and The First Heretic even implies (quite heavily) that the Emperor has used sorcery and even pacted with the Chaos Gods in order to create the primarchs (However that part is explained by the Daemon Ingethel, so take that with a pinch of salt). There is quite a lot that survives the scattering of the primarchs. In Deliverance Lost (SPOILER) Corax is sent out to retrieve the template that was used to create both space marines and primarchs. The Magos that follows him remarks that there is much knowledge in the lab they entered and that it could very well take lifetimes to understand just how the Emperor has created his genetic marvels. They cannot replicate a primarch, but they are capable of meshing primarch and astartes genetics in order to create a superior astartes (The first Raptors).

The Grey Knights never, ever, were intended as a replacement for the Custodes. They weren't even created with the same function in mind.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adeptus_Custodes

"the Custodes always act as a defensive army"

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Grey_Knights

"So the Emperor set in motion a plan to form a defence against such evil. Malcador the Sigilite, closest of the Emperor's servants, was sent to search across the Imperium for men suitable to rise to such a burden."

So, not only are their functions COMPLETELY different, we already know for a fact just who had a hand in creating their gene-seed. We know that Big E had his fingers in this. The Emperor's Gift by Aaron Dembski Bowden even implies that not only did the Emperor have a hand in creating their geneseed, but that he is the direct progenitor of the Grey Knights Gene-Template.

Also, we do not know if the emperor has planned to make an army of primarchs, that is pure speculation as you have, even now, not produced one possible source for this. If they were planned as an army, why only create 20 in the first place and then not try and rebuild the project with the vast amounts of material they still had from the Primarch Project? Also, your analogy of Mother/Father gene-influences is very, VERY faulty and I would advise you to look into simple genetics if you are interested in that topic.
Certainly, the Emperor is absolutely not astartes like, but neither are the Primarchs. We know next to nothing about their phisiology, besides that they have Larraman Cells. Following your logic, Space Marines should not have any Progenoid Glands as the Primarchs did not have them. After all, the Glands only exist to copy gene-seed and prepare to form the test-bed for two sets of space marine implants. Why would a primarch have something like that in the first place?
Similarly, the whole isn't created from "nothing". It is created from the Emperor's DNA, the primarchs that is. That's how genetics work, you can take something existing and alter it accordingly to the needs you have (Granted, we only have very, very basic means and knowledge of doing this nowadays, but in theory it isn't impossible to take genes from object A and modify them for a new purpose). So no, it is not created from nothing. It is cut out of something that already exists, modified, reshaped and cultivated.

There is no such thing as "Original" Custodes. From as far as we know, and even that is next to nothing, the only thing that has changed within the structure of the Adeptus Custodes is the fact that they have donned black cloth and decided to stay on Terra after the Emperor's death. From the very first moment we were introduced to them in the HH Novels they have always been described as bodyguards and the emperor's watchful eyes.

Persons made from the Emperor's DNA would not be 'just' powerful psykers, we already see what they become: Primarchs. Also, Malcador did not present only religious Astartes to the Emperor. As far as I know only Garro was a devout believer in the Emperor as a god, Loken, Varren and co. seem to be regular Imperial Truth Believers.

The tendency the Space Marines display while meeting their father's can hardly be described as something akin to a hive mind and no, not all primarchs caused instant revery in their sons. As The Betrayer states, the World Eaters did not and have never felt inspired during the Great Crusade and the Heresy in the same ways other legions were inspired by their fathers. It is infact specifically noted that Angron lacks ANY kind of such appeal. Also, not all space marine legions share the same amount of revery for their father. The Emperor's Children adore Fulgrim, even after the fall, while the Iron Warrior's appear to have a much colder and more distant relationship.

As such, it is a great fallacy to asume that Word Bearers were the founding stock of the Grey Knights. We have clear evidence that they did NOT share the gene-seed of ANY of the former legions and we have strong implications and reason to believe that it came from the purest and strongest source there is, the Emperor of Mankind. The Grey Knights also are not zealots or believers of the God Emperor. Again, The Emperor's gift has a Grey Knight scoffing at the idea of Chapters believing in the Emperor as a God. They are pragmatists, as someone has already said, perhaps the greatest to exist in the imperium. Yes, they follow rituals, yes they pray and speak incantations, but they do not do so out of belief in a god. They do so because these sanctic practices are a tested weapon against daemons. if making raindances and throwing huge disco-parties was the most efficient mean of combating the Warp, you bet they would do it.

I am very sorry, but there is so much wrong with your assumptions that it is hard to write a coherent text without just spreading out. I would love to go more into depth, but as of the moment I do not have the time to pull out and source every single quote. If you want to learn more about the nature of the Primarchs as a project, read The First Heretic and Deliverance Lost. Likewise if you want to know more about the Grey Knights, read the Emperor's gift.

klaswullt wrote:
FIrst, it's clear that the Emperor cannot make geneeseed from himself, because the geneseed has to be taken form a Primarch.

Wrong. It is true that for the creation of Space Marines, the Primarchs (Pre-Heresy) and then only the Loyalist Primarchs (post-Heresy) were the primary source of gene seed stock for the creation of the Space Marines, the very fact that the Custodes and the Grey Knights exist is proof that the gene seed of a Cpace Marine can be formed from the genetic material of the Emperor.

Where did you get the idea that the Emperor could not make gene seed stock from his own genetic material?

klaswullt wrote:
The Primarch where intented as the actual army and they where hard to make and all of the Empereors work was destroyed so he couldn't recreate the Primarch.

No, they were intended to be the generals of the Emperor's armies, not actually be an army.

Where did you get the idea that the Emperor intended to create an army of Primarchs?

klaswullt wrote:
Just that the Emp made these creatures from his own DNA doesn't mean he can make Space Marines from his own DNA because he is NOT a primarch. The person with DNA from the Emperor would just be a very powerfull psyker...

I don't understand why you think the fact that the Emperor is not a Primarch is a basis for saying that he is incapable of creating Space Marines from his own genetic material. Why do you think this is the case? I mean, you're not correct, but I'm just curious as to why you think this.

Also, I don't think that a Space Marine is automatically a powerful psyker just because it has a gene seed drawn from the genetic stock of the Emperor. Maybe said gene seed allows for a higher psykic potential (or provides psykic potential to those without it), but it doesn't guarantee them being a powerful psyker.

klaswullt wrote:
what I am trying to say is that if the Emp could make Space Marines by skipping Primarchs then the Primarchs would be useless and the Primarchs wouldn't be the Emperors sons and his only sons.

When you consider what the Prmarchs were meant to be, it makes perfect sense for the Emperor to create the Space Marine Legions from the genetic stock of the Primarchs as opposed to himself.

Why do you think this and where did you get the information to support this view point?

klaswullt wrote:

Engrenages wrote:

FIrst, it's clear that the Emperor cannot make geneeseed from himself,
because the geneseed has to be taken form a Primarch.

The Primarchs were created with the Emperor's own genetic template (among other things), so he's got a genetic matrix that can be used to create space marines. Primarch does not mean "creator of space marines". Your logic is completely flawed from the beginning. It's not because Space Marines were made from Primarchs that they cannot be made from the Emperor. They were derived from the 20 Primarchs so that they could have diversity and gain increased power from that as Legions.

You just made that up didn't you. The Primarch became different by unknown reasons or because of the taint of Chaos. No my logic is the correct one. Primarchs are the fathers of the legions and the Emperor DOESN'T HAVE GENESEED because only Primarch or another breed of Space Marines have geneseed with all the implants. The hole things can't be created from nothing.

Accusing somebody of making something up and then going on to say "No my logic is the correct one" is not a valid argument. Furthermore, making such an invalid argument only goes to show that you actually don't know as much as you seem to think you do on this topic (otherwise you'd be making a valid argument).

Also, you go on again about the gene seed not being able to come from the Emperor (which is downright false). If you read this carefully (Particularly the 'Origins' sub-heading), you'll hopefuly understand why this is wrong.

klaswullt wrote:
The Emperor does''t have the organs that are needed to implant into space marines genes creates. The Primarch are unique and the results of centuries of research called the Primarch Project. The Emperior could never again recreate the Primarch Project because all research was destroyed at the same time as chaos chattered the baby Primarch across the galaxy.

Yes, the Emperor's physiology is very different to that of a Space Marine (or even a Primarch), but please - for the love of the hobby - stop using this sort of stuff as an excuse to say that it is impossible for the Emperor to use his own genetic material in order to create Space Marines. It's downright false. Also, you seem to be forgetting that a large part of why the Emperor could never again create any Primarchs is because he used power that he stole from the Chaos Gods in order to create the Primarchs (and that also plays a big part in why the Chaos Gods scattered the Primarchs in the first place).

Also, where are you getting the information to support such theories?

klaswullt wrote:
The Primarchs are only way to create a legion of space marines because the space marine legions where never intended to be. The Intention was to create an entire army of Primarchs not puny super soldiers created by implanting things into elite breed human children.

The Space Marine Legions were always intended to happen. The Primarch Project (and thus the purpose of the Primarchs) is a testament to that.

klaswullt wrote:
...he could not make gen seed directly from himself.

Again, an outright false statement. The fact that the Grey Knights and the Custodes exist is a testament to the falseness of your statement.

klaswullt wrote:
But the biggest problem is style, they look exactly like Space Marines and they are Space Marines. The Emperor created the original custodes to have the role of being super super soldiers
that manages and kills lesser super soldiers. It's only after the Emperor was put on the golden throne that the custodes stopped fighting wars and became caretakers isolated in the golden palace.

Since when were the Custodes ever created to manage and kill lesser super soldiers?

And as I said before: Being caretakers in the Imperial Palace was still part of their purpose before the Horus Heresy, but after the Horus Heresy it became their only purpose. Also, back to what you said in the original post: How the the Grey Knights steal this job from the Custodes?

klaswullt wrote:
The Emperor is NOT a space marine and he doesn't have implants.

So? What exactly is that preventing? If it means that he could not create Space Marines and the like (as you claim), the the Thunder Warriors, Custodes, Space Marines, Primarchs, and any others that I've missed could never have existed.

klaswullt wrote:

Engrenages wrote:

what I am trying to say is that if the Emp could make Space Marines by skipping Primarchs then the Primarchs would be useless

No, because Primarchs were PLANNED as superlative generals, warriors, leaders and commander of space marines. If he hadn't the need for Primarchs, he owuld have just continued to make Thunder Warriors and improve them instead.

They where not. The Primarch where not planned as generals in that sense but they where planned as warriors.

They were planned, and one of their primary roles was to be generals of their own portion of the Emperor's armies (a.k.a. generals of their own Space Marine Legions created using their own genetic stock).
Where did you get the idea that the only way for a Space Marine Legion/Chapter to come about is through the genetic material of a Primarch?

klaswullt wrote:
...there is NO way the Emperor created any Chapter based on his space marine organs that he does not possess.

But the creation of a Space Marine Legion/Chapter has nothing to do with whether or not the Legion's/Chapter's progenitor has the organs.

Again, where did you get this incorrect information?

klaswullt wrote:

Engrenages wrote:

what I am trying to say is that if the Emp could make Space Marines by skipping Primarchs then the Primarchs would be useless

No, because Primarchs were PLANNED as superlative generals, warriors, leaders and commander of space marines. If he hadn't the need for Primarchs, he owuld have just continued to make Thunder Warriors and improve them instead.

They where not. The Primarch where not planned as generals in that sense but they where planned as warriors.

They were planned, and one of their primary roles was to be generals of their own portion of the Emperor's armies (a.k.a. generals of their own Space Marine Legions created using their own genetic stock).


Also, you go on to talk about "...your version..." when talking about other people's comments, and make several claims that people are making things up. I'm not taking offense to this, but it's a case of why are you making these statements and accusations? Everything that everyone (apart from you) has said is in line with all the canon material, and yet here you are saying "You made that up!", "My logic is the correct one!", or "...in your version...". Why?


Considering the above as well as the fact that you continue to (apparently) believe in a large number fallacies, I will echo my initial recommendation:

IllumiNini wrote:Jump on the Warhammer 40,000 Wikia and Lexicanum. These should help you with finding out more about the 40K universe as well as further establishing why almost everything you said in the original post is wrong.

The Emperor exterminated all religions on Earth, that is very very Stalin of him.

Have you read Mechanicum (HH Novel)? He also manipulated the Martian Mechanicum so that when he arrived their religion would accept him as essentially 'Technology Jesus' - a religion he did absolutely nothing to restrict, correct or downplay.

didn't know the Emperor let people believe in the Lograr stuff on Terra and that he did nothing.
Where is that coming from?,I am going to assume that is true.

The Lectitio Divinitatus (one of the proto-ecclesiarchal cults) was active both in the crusade fleets and on Terra.

We see what life was like on Terra in The Outcast Dead (HH Novel) - the cult isn't preaching that openly though - it's still a secretive movement and the huge, crimeridden shantytown outside the Palace gates is a place that, frankly, the Emperor is too busy to be bothered with whatever they do.

At the same time, a few bits of religion do sneak through. Two separate Imperial Army soldiers (Ollianus in Know No Fear and Hurtado Bronzi in Legion) have openly admitted to being "Catheric by devotion" - given the context and crucifix mentioned one assumes this is somewhat time-distorted version of Christianity (there is such a branch - or was - as 'Cathar').

The people on Terra who worshiped him as a gods where a cult who suddenly appeared and spread
and it was created by Logar.

Yes and no. The cult didn't 'suddenly appear'. Between The First Heretic, Aurelian, and the assorted Garro audiobooks, you see it growing up. The belief in the Emperor's divinity didn't appear soley with Lorgar. He was the most vocal, eloqeuent and highly-placed advocate of it, but the belief appeared several places independently (again, what's the Omnissiah doctrine of the Cult Mechanicum if not essentially the same thing?). What Lorgar did was produce a book called the Lectitio Divinitatus, which spread pretty widely amongst these assorted independent cells and cults and became one of the bedrock bits of their theology.

The actual 'cult' which becomes the Ecclesiarchy can actually be traced back to (most likely) Euphrati Keeler, who's in the HH series currently playing wandering missionary around Terra, and has actually experienced the kind of 'divine intervention' miracles normally assigned in later millennia to the Sororitas.

Is there actually any chapter except the Space Wolves where everyone is into the secular Imperial Truth camps?
I think it seems like it's more of an individual choice.

Not really. The 'Chapter Cults' are pretty well enforced on people, but most don't deify the Emperor. The key difference is that most First Founding chapters - i.e. the original legions - don't see the emperor as divine. It's the successors who generally start using phrases like "God-Emperor". Certainly in Sons of Dorn, the Imperial Fists use sort-of-divine language (Immortal Emperor, 'Him-On-Earth') but pointedly never - even when the Chaplain is speaking - use the word 'God'.

The Primarch are unique and the results of centuries of research called the Primarch Project.
The Emperior could never again recreate the Primarch Project because all research was destroyed at the same time as chaos chattered the baby Primarch across the galaxy.

The 'official' truth but not the whole truth. As noted in The First Heretic, the Emperor was smart enough to have everything backed up, and if his was the super-genius responsible for so much, why couldn't he restart the project? His resources increased tenfold in the early years of the Great Crusade - the addition of Mars alone vastly increasing both the technology and the number of scientists at his disposal, and whilst he may have done the original research secretly, that means he must have done it with relatively small resources.

The reason, theorised later in The First Heretic, supported by comments in Aurelian and directly confirmed in Vengeful Spirit, is that the Primarchs were a 'one off' for a whole different reason. Yes, they were a scientific marvel. Yes, they represented decades or centuries of research by Terra's finest minds (including Malcador and the Emperor), but there was a second ingredient never publicly admitted to. The reason they were a one-off is that some part of their makeup was created as a 'bargain' struck between the Emperor and the Chaos Gods - and the Emperor then tried to cheat them on the deal (the details of which are unclear) by establishing a Gellar Field around the Primarch Lab.

it would make
more sense if the Planned General Primarchs just commanded the Thunder Warriors who where just designed as troops??

The Thunder Warriors were only ever a 'short term solution' - to conquer Terra itself as quickly as possible to turn it into a world he could launch the crusade from. They themselves were short-lived, borderline psychotic, given to all sorts of biological complications and not especially tolerant to hostile planetary environments - not helped by the fact that Mk I 'Thunder' Armour was not environmentally sealed.

For an interstellar campaign where the voyages would represent troops locked in a box with no outlet for violence for months or even years, and the eventual battle would be as often in toxic atmospheres on alien worlds, the Thunder Warriors were never going to cut it.

 Psienesis wrote:
It is a common misconception that the Emperor is some sort of arch-atheist. He isn't. He knows full well that Warp Gods exist, and he hates them. This is why he instructed people not to believe in them at all. However, while he was walking around on Terra during the Great Crusade, there were billions of people already worshiping him as a god. He did nothing to stop them.

Yep. Furthermore, most of the fluff painting the emperor as the greatest/smartest/Stephen Hawking's got nothing on him atheist ever is fairly new and probably reflects GW's/the author's desire to be more "hip" in this decade (cause we can't have good guys who believe they are gods). Unfortunately, it kills some of the grimdark.

 greyknight12 wrote:

Yep. Furthermore, most of the fluff painting the emperor as the greatest/smartest/Stephen Hawking's got nothing on him atheist ever is fairly new and probably reflects GW's/the author's desire to be more "hip" in this decade (cause we can't have good guys who believe they are gods). Unfortunately, it kills some of the grimdark.

Also possibly to have the irony of the 40K Imperium worshipping him. How far it's gone from his vision yaddy yaddy yadda.

Doesn't really work though for many reasons.

for all we know the emperor worship was fully intended, and the EoM just realized that wiping out religions and insisting on being worshipped instead would go poorly so took a more subtle approuch.

My answer is "No"

I really like this theory but i always assumed they were just space marines serving the inqusition, im not very well imformed of the lore though but i do know that word bearers were very loyal to their primarch

BrianDavion wrote:
for all we know the emperor worship was fully intended, and the EoM just realized that wiping out religions and insisting on being worshipped instead would go poorly so took a more subtle approuch.

Given what we have seen with modern Christianity, Judaism, Islam, he didn't need to insist on worship, he just needed to demonstrate his power and the flocks will gladly bend the knee. He has existed throughout human history, in the year 2000. If he is a fraction as powerful as depicted in fluff, if he were to appear now, today, and show his supposed power, the Christians of the world would hail him as the Second Coming of Christ, the Jews as well likely would see him as God in some sense. Even the "devout" "Muslims" of ISIS would be hard pressed to deny the Emperor's power although maybe not name him Allah. The Emperor wanted to exterminate religion because all religion in some way leads back to the 4 true gods, the Dark Gods. They are based off Christian Seven Deadly Sins (Wrath - Khorne, Pride, Lust - Slaanesh, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth - Nurgle, Envy, along with deliberate acts of evil such as lying which Dante Alighieri defined as being worst sin of all, line with Tzeentch). As Christianity is a branch devolved from Judaism and is extremely similar to Islam in many aspects, I have no doubt much of those religions would lead to Chaos as well. For example, with no offense intended to the religious here, but the Islamic restrictions on cutting hair could be something that empowers Nurgle through sloth (ie, not maintain body hair), or vanity (shaving the entire head as Muhammad dictates) which empowers Slaanesh.

No, the Emperor wanted to stamp out religion entirely. He is a being created for a very particular purpose, saving humanity from Chaos. He isn't capable of falling to such human frailties as vanity to desire worship or greed in controlling mankind. His job and only actions are those which protect humanity from Chaos, regardless of consequence and method.

 Deadshot wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
for all we know the emperor worship was fully intended, and the EoM just realized that wiping out religions and insisting on being worshipped instead would go poorly so took a more subtle approuch.

Given what we have seen with modern Christianity, Judaism, Islam, he didn't need to insist on worship, he just needed to demonstrate his power and the flocks will gladly bend the knee. He has existed throughout human history, in the year 2000. If he is a fraction as powerful as depicted in fluff, if he were to appear now, today, and show his supposed power, the Christians of the world would hail him as the Second Coming of Christ, the Jews as well likely would see him as God in some sense. Even the "devout" "Muslims" of ISIS would be hard pressed to deny the Emperor's power although maybe not name him Allah. The Emperor wanted to exterminate religion because all religion in some way leads back to the 4 true gods, the Dark Gods. They are based off Christian Seven Deadly Sins (Wrath - Khorne, Pride, Lust - Slaanesh, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth - Nurgle, Envy, along with deliberate acts of evil such as lying which Dante Alighieri defined as being worst sin of all, line with Tzeentch). As Christianity is a branch devolved from Judaism and is extremely similar to Islam in many aspects, I have no doubt much of those religions would lead to Chaos as well. For example, with no offense intended to the religious here, but the Islamic restrictions on cutting hair could be something that empowers Nurgle through sloth (ie, not maintain body hair), or vanity (shaving the entire head as Muhammad dictates) which empowers Slaanesh..

In a setting where people with super powers (Psykers) are already well known about portraying yourself as a god becomes a lot harder.

I don't see the Abrahamic religions leading to the Ruinous Powers if the Chaos Gods represent various sins. Surely that would keep people away from them?

Cutting hair or not applies to everyone regardless of religion.

more to the point the emperor SAW religions be corrupted to the point theys erved the aims of chnaos countless times in the past. he says he created several religions in the past in an attempt to counter chaos and it always ended poorly. (it;s implied pretty heavily that christ may have been simply a guise of the emperor)