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So many of the recent chaos rules really play up the idea that chaos is highly lolrandom. The chaos marine and daemons books were both written in 6th edition when we were getting a cornucopia of random tables to roll on, and the chaos books certainly have their share of those! In the current rules, daemons explode mid-sentence because the wrong chaos god blinked at them (warp storm), they seldom have the same abilities twice thanks to random gifts and random powers. Thousand Sons sorcerers have powers that spontaneously turn themselves and their allies into bizarre, randomized mutants. Tzeentch, chaos god of long-term plotting grants psychic powers that might make the obstacles in the way of his plans more durable because "chaos is fickle."

To me, this is all terribly silly, and I can't help but feel that the "let's add random charts" initiative mixed with an impulse to equate "chaos" to "random" resulted in some rules that don't actually fit other portrayals of the forces of chaos terribly well. A few points and counterpoints:

"But it's CHAOS!"
Well, yeah. But let's look at what that really means. "Chaos" creatures dwell in the warp, which is basically a realm that reflects the psychic echoes of living creatures. This realm doesn't follow normal physics, which makes it weird, and it's partially shaped by the nonsensical babbling of every living thing with a warp presence. Which makes it really weird. But it's not innately "random." It's strange because it follows rules we aren't used to, and it's loud because of all the random psychic echoes, but the same could be said for a night club. It doesn't go out of its way to be "random." In fact, psykers seem to sometimes latch on to a certain amount of reliable patterns in the behaviors of the warp to consistently get effects. It's less "random" and more "wild."

But Chaos acts so crazy!
Eh... do they though? Daemons are from a realm with non-standard physics, but they still have patterns in their behaviors. Daemons seem to pretty much universally dislike silver or strong presentations of imperial faith. They seek "food" in the form of negative emotions (often from slaughter) because it sustains them and allows them to continue existing in the materium or to pull more of their friends through. Each chaos god is, itself, a consciousness wrapped up in energy corresponding to predictable, repetitive emotions and concepts. Nurgle is death and decay. Slaanesh is excess and perfect. Khorne is honorable dueling and cruel slaughter. Tzeentch is plotting and change. The daemons of those chaos gods, though they may have varying numbers of tentacles and beaks and eyes, always have broadly similar power sets that reflect these concepts. Those daemons are also implied to be "chunks" of a given chaos god given a certain amount of independence. So in a sense, chaos gods are basically just warp animals that like to eat and don't like when other warp animals walk through their territory. They send their bodies (daemons) out to manipulate the materium to make/obtain food in the form of psychic echoes and to progress their plans, almost like the hive mind sending out tyranids to nom on a planet.

The fact that we can identify chaos gods and daemons as having certain concepts and weaknesses associated with them indicates that chaos is not actually all that random.

But... Tzeentch is random, right? I mean, he's all about random mutations and unpredictable magic and stuff!
That's... certainly how he comes across with mutations depending on a d66 table and his psychic powers possibly resulting in making enemies stronger rather than killing them. But should that really be the chaos? Yes, mutations are "random," but half the time a given mutant's mutation seems to be the result of unguided warp energy interacting with biology rather than being Tzeentchian in nature. Yes, Tzeentch's daemons plot against one another and even against Tzeentch himself, but that's sort of the metaphorical equivalent of having an argument in your head. In the fluff, Tzeentch seems to be capable of long-term planning, and he's implied to step in to subtley push fate in a certain pawn's favor. His aspects may work against one another, but he's not the chaos god version of a game of Mad Libs.


This post has probably been way too long, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts. Should chaos actually be chaotic, or is this just an unfortunate mechanical direction that's been taken despite not really matching the fluff we see regarding chaos?

Because Chaos can't have nice things, that's why.

Random is fine, within certain parameters. As you took a bunch of words to say, random effects within a certain subset would be ideal for representing Chaos, but as we all know, GW can't write a balanced book, so we get the boon chart, warpflame and Tz powers that we all know and hate.

Also, what is random to us is just as planned to Tzeentch. It might take 10,000 years, but there's a reason you stubbed your toe last tuesday and were 12 minutes late and missed that cruicial meeting. GW represent that via their FUN* tables.

The "chaotic" and "radomness" of the ruinous powers are largely the perspective of the outside observer. The winds of chaos, the influence of the Chaos gods are a push and pulling influence and to anyone not attuned to those influences will perceive an aimless but destructive intent.

Imagine what your pet or some animal sees when we go about our daily lives... to that animal our actions lack purpose because to the best of our ability the only purpose we believe they understand is to eat, rest, reproduce... We are as chaotic to them as they are to us. As much as they are limited in their understanding of us so are we limited in ours of them. In that way the assertion that chaos is primordial is really a lack of comprehension.

The randomness of tables is a left over mechanic from when that was the best way to represent chaos. In this edition that same "randomness" would be much better represented with objective cards that grant more than just victory points or impose additional influences on the game. I think a unique objective card deck for chaos would be the best way to represent a lot of the challenges the Imperium and mortals have in understanding chaos.

Consider the more recent fiction for the Horus Heresy... on Calth, the Ultramarines struggle to understand why the Word Bearers stop advancing... to the Ultramarines this is "chaotic" behavior... to the Word Bearers they are taken with a desire to appease the gods and a concern for the souls of all mortals... they are erecting effigies to the ruinous powers to capture and conserve the souls of any of the mortals killed on the planet.

I agree with you OP. I've long been against the randomification (word?) of the game in general, and in particular, Chaos and Orks. Orks get shafted for much the same reason, and I feel it ruins the actual narrative ability of the player.

Given the time scale of the game, it feels kind of silly to have as much random nonsense as it does. A single roll on the Chaos table at the beginning makes sense, sure, but having it done every turn with wildly different results seems forced and bordering on the nonsensical (yes, even for a game in the far future with space knights and green fungus people).

Less tables, less charts, less random abilities. Let the players be the Chaos they want to be. They'll be as Chaotic as they want; let them forge their own narrative, as GW is so proud to trumpet.

40K is a game with rules, and even so-called Chaos has to be bound by rules that are easy to remember, model and use. The lolrandom tables *have* to focus on effects that alter the game AND be bound to a limited range that can be rolled or chosen.

If we were to see the 40K universe outside the context of its game rules, the Lords of Chaos and their minions would be even more varied and disordered (look at the old 1E & 2E art, for example).

To top it off, GW has been very uneven with balancing what in-game is a random roll. They have mixed mundane results with game-breaking results at both ends of the scale (though usally towards the "1" side of things) to create false drama instead of tactical play. That's fine if that's how you want to play, but its incredibly infuriating for the tactical players to see their carefully laid plans go arwy due to an unforseen bad roll.

I'm in the middle on the "random" factor - it can be hilarious at times, but mostly it's just annoying. I wish GW would snip the extremes, switch to point-based mutations and abilities, and focus on the balance of the game instead attempting to reprude the randomness of Chaos through poorly thought out "random" tables that just slow down the game and generally disrupt games instead of enhance them. Save the real random for the fluff and stories, keep it out of the game.

I think it's probably best to move away from the random game mechanics. Certainly, throwing the Chaos player a curveball and seeing how they react is very appropriate but something like a roguelike is probably a better way to explore that than a tabletop strategy game.

Of course, a lot depends on the exact nature and degree of the randomness involved. Some randomness can add a bit of flavour but there are some levels where you really are better off just making a computer game because the bookkeeping gets tedious.

The other problem is even in the rare cases where the tables are "balanced", the choices can be polar opposites in what they're suppose to do. Like some of the C'tan powers; 2/3rds of the powers are to handle hordes whole 1/3rd is to handle single targets (MCs and Tanks). If they let you roll THEN pick the target, at least that gives the player an option to mitigate the random. But if you pointed it at a vehicle with 13 armor and then rolled the power that generates 10 S6 hits....too bad (or alternatively you pointed it at a horde of gaunts hoping for one of the three blast profiles, and get the single-shot D-strength precision hit).

It would be better if the gifts were categorized and you could mitigate some of the random. Like if all Melee buffs (+1 strength, attack, AP2, etc) were under one table, survivability was under another (Toughness, wounds, IWND or FnP, Armor, or invul) and such, while the gifts would still be random, at least I have a general idea of what I'm getting. Rolling that Armor Save result on a Bloodthirster or Daemon prince with Warpforged Armor always sucks.

To me, Chaos is random in the sense that anything goes, not that anything goes randomly.

It's random because a bunch of guys might have 3 arms while the next bunch of guys have 9 eyes. However, these things should enhance a warrior, not obstruct him. Chaos should not be all about shooting yourself in the foot by growing a spike on the palm of your hand that prevents you from holding a gun, it should be about growing a 5th limb that features a spike that can be used along your other 4 limbs.
However, it would be hard to encompass that in the game itself. One thing that should definitely be done is shrink down the boon table to a feasible size because let's face it, the majority of the chaos boons are literally useless on most units that would ever win a challenge.
What might make it worth in my opinion is turning it all into stat upgrades so the table looks something as follows:
1: +1 I
2: +1 S
3: +1 A
4 +1 W
5: +1 WS
6: +1 T

Purposely leaving out BS (because it has got nothing to do with CC and challenges) and Ld (because most HQ's have 10 anyway).
Providing powerful buffs for slaying enemy leaders. It'd make the forced challenges useful and make opponents wary of accepting challenges. Challenges aren't even that common, it's not like it'd lead to T10 chaos lords cruising around. And if it does happen, so be it. I think you deserve it if your chaos lord manages to win 4 challenges and rolls the exact same result every time.