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Greetings fellow Dakka users! I have recently decided to start a CSM army, but don't really know where to start (except for probably getting the Star Collecting set and knowing that I want a Tzeentch themed army). Also, reading through the codex I saw the Demon Prince entry and thought he sounded really cool although is it deliberate to not give him the option to have a demon weapon? And would you have to customise one to make a Demon of Tzeentch with power armour? Thanks in advance

Tzeench themed CSM are very weak atm. Tzeench daemons are pretty powerful though but it's another codex.

To be honest, CSM are not in the good shape overall. And Tzeench part is the weakest of them all. But can still be used in casual games with passable results if you're really good or lucky.

The problem is that a 'strong' CSM build completely lacks csm and anything Tzeench-y in it and usually consists of a bunch of sorcerrors - probably from Cabal, nurgle spawns or allied Khorne dogs from the Khorne Daemonkin book. Probably a chaos knight. And min cultists as a filler for troops.

Now if you're fixed on Tzeench and you only want a CSM book and not a Daemon book, you're stuck in casual games and you'll most likely be at severe disadvantage if someone brings something more or less optimal. But it's not a bad thing on it's own as you'll rely more on tactics and will learn to use what little good you have.

In short, the standard +1 invul is useless for troops, is generally worse than other marks for most other things too. But costs more. Your named character Ahriman is an interesting one as he's a ML4 psycher that can spam psy shreiks and has a warlord trait that allows to use infiltration tactics but he's a t4 dude on foot without Eternal Warrior, Spell Familliar and with a landraider price tag. Your cult troops have ap3 bolters, are fearless, have 4++ and a psycher as a sarge but he's forced to roll on a Tzeench psy table which only has one decent spell and they're once again severely overcosted and usually do better in melee as a tarpit unit with a force axe rather than what they're intended to do.

So, i'd recommend to try out a few games with proxies before diving deep into spending sums of money on the models you'd probably shelve a few months later. And check out if your group has casual players that run orks, sisters of battle or imperial guard. You'd have quite some enjoyable games against them. But they HAVE to be casual too.

There are some rumors on new CSM in the near future, and most Chaos CSM models are outdated.
So the most sensible thing would be to wait for the new rules / models of if you really can't wait buy some stuff you like the looks of now. Don't buy too much just buy what you want to paint right now.

The best thing to do might be to buy the Chaos part of the Dark vengeance set cheap.
The Dark vengeance set and already has a great Tzeentchian feel to it.



You could tzeentch it up by also buying some dark tower models for head and weapon swaps or other nice conversions or just use them as daemon allies / summons.

The other route might be to get yourself a calth box if you like your models clean.
If you like to have an oop clasic army in the future you might want to stock up on Chaos Space Marines Thousand Sons Upgrade Packs.
Who know when they become oop. they might even combine nicely with the calth box.

 koooaei wrote:
Tzeench themed CSM are very weak atm. Tzeench daemons are pretty powerful though but it's another codex.

To be honest, CSM are not in the good shape overall. And Tzeench part is the weakest of them all. But can still be used in casual games with passable results if you're really good or lucky.

Now if you're fixed on Tzeench and you only want a CSM book and not a Daemon book, you're stuck in casual games and you'll most likely be at severe disadvantage if someone brings something more or less optimal. But it's not a bad thing on it's own as you'll rely more on tactics and will learn to use what little good you have.

What's life like without a challenge? But I see where you're coming from and am not fixed on Tzeentch, it was just an idea from an aesthetics point of view. Why? Do you suggest pledging my allegiance to another dark god? If so which one? I would like an army that is fun to play as well as which is to win a few tournaments Btw, thanks to everyone for the feedback

 Loremaster Of Awesomeness wrote:
What's life like without a challenge? But I see where you're coming from and am not fixed on Tzeentch, it was just an idea from an aesthetics point of view. Why? Do you suggest pledging my allegiance to another dark god? If so which one? I would like an army that is fun to play as well as which is to win a few tournaments Btw, thanks to everyone for the feedback

If you want to win tournaments, then CSM is the wrong army. Hell, if you want to win games, CSM is the wrong army.

While Tzeentch is clearly the best god, Nurgle has the only units worth fielding as a general rule of thumb. MoN lord on bike with power fist/lightning claw and sigil, Mastery 3 unmarked Sorceror on bike with spell familiar, 2x plague marines with double special weapons in rhinos, a pair of heldrakes, 5 nurgle spawn and as many MoN obliterators as points allow is about as good as it gets for CSM. Some people have had success with a Cyclopian Cabal and Renegade Kinghts, but again, at that point, you're playing knights with caster support that you could generally do better with vanilla marines

Check out Daemons, as they make a pretty good allied force to CSM, but eventually you'll realise that the more Daemons and less CSM you have in your list, the better it gets, to the point where you realise that there's not much point taking any CSM at all.

The start collecting box is extremly bad for CSM since the Helbrute is junk (no drop pod, no double autocannon option, still an AV12 walker), the termie lord is useless (no scatter mitigation, no reserve manipulation bar comms relay, moves 6" a turn, can't sweep) and CSM are always passed over in favour of the much cheaper cultists as troops tax.

The list of problems with CSM is both well documented and extremely long, but to save time, a shortlist of units that are notably less bad than everything else in the dex is roughly as follows:
- Khorne lord on jugger with axe / Nurgle lord on bike with fist/claw
- Sorc on bike, Unmarked
- Belakor
- Plague Marines as troops (passable)
- Cultists (terrible, but cheap)
- Heldrake
- Obliterators
- Maulerfiends en mass
- Spawn (preferably with MoN)
- Autocannon Havoks (sometimes)

That's about it.

One silly thing you can do with MoT is stick units on a skyshield for a 3++. Not the worst thing ever for auto-Havoks or MoT Oblits (or, in strange circumstances, MoT cultists, because moving 35 bodies with a 3++ can be surprisingly difficult at times).

I'd save yourself the pain of using the CSM codex, as the Tzeentch powers and psykers (aside from Ahriman and the Daemons codex) are quite literally the worst in the game.
Unit choices from that book are utterly horrendous.

A much, much better plan is to use the GK codex (and their models, because they look cool), and use the powers they have access to. What with all GK models being psykers and all.



Failing that, if you don't mind dumping cash everywhere, you could use the 30k Thousand Sons rules.

 Drasius wrote:

One silly thing you can do with MoT is stick units on a skyshield for a 3++.

I'm pretty sure that they don't scale this way. You simply get 6++ and 4++.

Out of the dark vengeance box you could form a Helcult, which is one of the few decent formations CSM have. With the Start collecting box you'd have two helbrutes already, so you'd only need one more for a helbrute mayhem pack, which is also fun to use and with the 2 additional attacks our dreadnoughts got yesterday, it's not that bad.
Unfortunately the mark of Tzeentch is only useful on units that already have an Invul save. That's possessed, obliterators, warp talons, mutilators and Termis. Unfortunately, three of the five are usually seen as the weakest units in the entire game. Oblits are good though.
You never go wrong with a Daemon prince and concerning your question, as far as I know you can build one with tzeentchian style out of the plastic DP box.
Tzeentch is all about magic so you will want to use many sorcerors. You can do that now with the cyclobia cabal (3-5 sorcerors, a formation from the Black legion supplement) or Abaddons Chosen (1-4 Sorcerors/Lords + 1-4 Termi units, also from Black Legion).
The other posters are right about the fact, that Thousand sons aren't that strong right now, but if it's about the looks and fluff, take 1-2 units of them and you're settled.
Play Maelstrom-Missions, don't take MoT on the sorcerors and welcome to Chaos. I know, as a Nurgle-follower I should hate you, but Tzeentch ist still a better choice than the loyalist scum

 koooaei wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

One silly thing you can do with MoT is stick units on a skyshield for a 3++.

I'm pretty sure that they don't scale this way. You simply get 6++ and 4++.

Yeah, they don't stack. You just get two invuln saves of differing value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

Thousand sons aren't that strong right now,

I don't think they've ever been. GW's not a fan of the "bad guys" of 40k.

GW also doesn't get that all the factions are bad guys.

 Selym wrote:


Failing that, if you don't mind dumping cash everywhere, you could use the 30k Thousand Sons rules.

Where would I find these? Also, is using lots of Tzeentch sorcerers to summon lots of demons bad then? Plus, as mentioned above I would much rather have a fun army than a winwinwin army, although I never thought Thousand Sons Marines too bad

Malefic daemonology isn't bad as psychic powers go, but the Tzeentch based tables in the CSM and CD codexes are bad.
If you want to summon daemons, you'd be better off using the CD codex.

For 30k:
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-Heresy?N=102581+4294966021&Nu=product.repositoryId&qty=8&sorting=rec&view=table&categoryId=cat2210033

Not entirely sure which book you'd need though.

Another option would be to buy the normal Space Marine codex and use the units and rules in there but make them look like chaos space marines. With that you will always be an competitive opponent while you can make your army as tzentch or khorne looking as you want, since these chaos gods don`t represent the rules you are using.

 koooaei wrote:
Tzeench themed CSM are very weak atm. Tzeench daemons are pretty powerful though but it's another codex.

To be honest, CSM are not in the good shape overall. And Tzeench part is the weakest of them all. But can still be used in casual games with passable results if you're really good or lucky.

The problem is that a 'strong' CSM build completely lacks csm and anything Tzeench-y in it and usually consists of a bunch of sorcerrors - probably from Cabal, nurgle spawns or allied Khorne dogs from the Khorne Daemonkin book. Probably a chaos knight. And min cultists as a filler for troops.
....................

Really Dakka? FFS, the guy wants to play 40k.

OP, CSM are fun, Tzeench builds can be a ton of fun, DPs in particular are really good for Tzeench.

Make sure you look into the black legion formations as they tend to favor Tzeench builds.

There's also rumors floating around about new Thousand Sons releases coming in the second half of the Curse of the Wulfen supplement, so Tzeentch might get some better options from that.

Ahriman is actually not as bad as some make him. He has a ridiculous price tag yeah, but guaranteed infiltrate is pretty good (the main reason why people use Huron) and he can sit in a Rhino and spam Psychic Shriek.

I recommend a small allied detachment of Tzeentch Daemons for him to use for Warp Charges from.

 Lukash_ wrote:
I recommend a small allied detachment of Tzeentch Daemons for him to use for Warp Charges from.

Seconding this. A small contigent of pink horrors in a CAD or an Allied Detachment is a decent bang for you buck and get a roll on Malefic Daemonolgy. For an HQ choice, you can dip in to get either a cheaper Tzeentch Herald or get a buff Tzeentch Daemon Prince or Lord of Change, each potentially ML3.

Cultists are fantastic in big globs, but need some fearlessness. Just bear that in mind.

Really check out the Black Legion formations. One allows for many Sorcs with supporting Chosen or Terminators, while the Cyclopia Cabal is a blob of sorcerors. Do consider mark-less sorcerors, but this is really up to you. Bikes are also fantastic for sorcs along with familiars obviously. A Bio sorceror on a bike can be pretty fun if fragile.

Heldrakes are still good and are great model conversion bait for Tzeentch. Birds, away!

 sfshilo wrote:

Really Dakka? FFS, the guy wants to play 40k.

So do all who like CSM. Unfortunately, there is no playing 40k with the CSM dex unless you're using it to get Be'lakor out of the CD force org. Who, btw, isn't even in the CSM book.

Chaos is one of those armies still lacking models for some of the options, so as a consequence this does mean you need to convert up some stuff to be usable (for example, Havocs).

That said, they're not as bad as people on this thread made them out to be. They're certainly not an easy win but if you just play casually (i.e: not with someone who runs the ridiculous loopholes or only undercosted units in the game) the Chaos Marines are passable and can even be fun.

For Tzeentch, your options are pretty limited. However there are some fun opportunities for you to try out.

First, the Black Legion supplement has some good units you might wanna look into. The biggest one is the Cyclopean Cabal, which is made up of only sorcerors and is great thematically for you. Note that while it is Black Legion, you're only using the rules so feel free to make them from any chapter or legion.

Second, feel free to use proxies for units that would be good. Obliterators with the Mark of Tzeentch can be represented by Terminator Sorcerors. Just say they're conjuring magic bullets instead of actually morphing the weapons from their bodies. Another one is making Heldrakes out of the High Elves Phoenixes; fits with the whole magic theme better than the raging metal dragon.

Lastly, mitigate what's weak and emphasis what's strong. Generic Thousand Sons marines are not the best of the crop, but you can choose to take less of them for your manditory troops if you'd like, or just go with normal CSM with the MoT (I know they suck, but hey, stick to a theme). That or look into unmarked Cultists, as for 100 points they can fulfill your troops tax leaving you open to buying other stuff.

Also, as a note; ally in some Daemons. This is not just because they're a lot stronger than marines, but it's also because it's very much fitting the theme for Tzeentchian warbands to have daemons among their ranks. Tzeentchian Daemons compliment Tzeentch CSM well as they provide a cheap source of Warp Charges, as well as giving you access to the dreaded Fateweaver (Tzeentch's supposed most powerful Lord of Change that lets you reroll one dice, any dice, per turn) and a Codex: Chaos Daemon Daemon Prince is far better (yes, the entry appears in two codexes, and theirs is better if you have the Daemonic Incursion). Mainly because THAT daemon prince gets access to the relics. He can get a 3+ invulnerable save (meaning it can't be ignored by anything) that he can reroll if it ends up as a 1, and there's a lot more goodies there too.

I'll throw in a quiet suggestion for Spawn. Not that you'd mark them with Tzeentch, oh my no. Just the model themselves and what they represent fit the theme nicely. Leave them unmarked and have fun, or give them MoN and say the +1 toughness is coming from some mutated thick skin or what have you.

 Scourged wrote:
I'll throw in a quiet suggestion for Spawn. Not that you'd mark them with Tzeentch, oh my no. Just the model themselves and what they represent fit the theme nicely. Leave them unmarked and have fun, or give them MoN and say the +1 toughness is coming from some mutated thick skin or what have you.

Second this. Spawns went from the worst unit in the game to one of the better ones in CSM (not fantastic mind you, but they're actually pretty strong at their intended role of character escorts).

My main army is Tzeentch CSM, I use oblitorators with Tzeentch mark, Ahriman as warlord to outflank, a cabal of 2x terminator sorcs to run with oblits, and 1 bike one to outflank with MoN spawns.

Outflank, take over a shooty unit, and explode stuff.

Throw in a tzeentch knight, 2 units of cultists, and a heldrake and you have my 1850 list.

It isn't the best list in the game, but it does work quite well.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

So, basically, if you want to play Tzeench - take as few MoT as possible than stick with unmarked or Nurgle and PRETEND you're playing Tzeench.
...
And than you'd be ok for completely casual games.

That's what i was talking about when i said you'd have to forget about themed lists if you want to pull even a single win against a more or less optimised opponent's list. You have to minimise the real Tzeench part or take it out completely and pretend you're still playing a themed list via proxies.

So this is a newb question... do the new Psychic disciplines for CD in Curse of Wulfen allow CSM sorcerers to use them too? I wasn't sure if it is a full replacement of say the Tzeentch discipline or if only Demons can use them. Thanks!

Personally, i would Go with Crimson Slaughter
Possesed as troops with a unique table that gives either gives them Shrouded (also confers to the transport their on), Beasts or a 3++ Invun with Rending

Another good thing about them is the 'Prophet of the Voices' relic, which grants the Daemon, Fearless, Fleet and 'Slaves to the voices' (he rolls on the *New* Possessed Table) but he can only join Possesed
If you Stick it on an Unmarked Level 3 Sorceror, he can have up to 4 powers (3 rolls, 1 primaris) from the 'Malefic' Daemonology Psychic Powers (the one that allows you to summon daemons) and he never has to worry about rolling any doubles, as he has the Daemon Rule (I.E Summon LOTS of Daemons)
Sticking him in a 10 Man Possesed Squad with Mark of Nurgle (so they get Toughness 5) or Mark of Slannesh+Icon of Excess (for I5 and FnP 5+) Is good as the 'Slaves to the Voices' Table helps them cross the board (Shrouded for going though terrain, Beasts for moving Super Fast or a 3++ Invun for Footslogging)
Plus they all get Fear, as its a Crimson Slaughter rule

cpugh13 wrote:
So this is a newb question... do the new Psychic disciplines for CD in Curse of Wulfen allow CSM sorcerers to use them too? I wasn't sure if it is a full replacement of say the Tzeentch discipline or if only Demons can use them. Thanks!

Daemons have different disciplines then CSM (Daemon's are called Change, Plague, and Excess)

 koooaei wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

So, basically, if you want to play Tzeench - take as few MoT as possible than stick with unmarked or Nurgle and PRETEND you're playing Tzeench.
...
And than you'd be ok for completely casual games.

That's what i was talking about when i said you'd have to forget about themed lists if you want to pull even a single win against a more or less optimised opponent's list. You have to minimise the real Tzeench part or take it out completely and pretend you're still playing a themed list via proxies.

Thank you for taking my words so far out of context that the quote had nothing in it. If you actually read my two responses the only "non-tzeentch" choices I advocated was unmarked spawns and unmarked cultists. I even recommended taking normal CSM with Mark of Tzeentch.

Putting all the WAAC & Powerplay guys aside and deliberately ignoring the bickering that is the "CSM Community" if there ever was any to begin with..

Tzeentch Chaos Space Marines can be quite fun, it surely isn't the Favorite of the Month and it isn't the "plug & play"-army some people want it to be
but that should not hinder you or influence your decision. Play what you like the most & what inspires you - not what's the most powerful.

When it comes to army building & having some "fluffy fun" i strongly recommend you to get the Crimson Slaughter Supplement. There are a couple of
useful formations that make any Tzeentch-based fluff army really fun to play & play against. The "Disciples of Mannon" for example let you roll 2 dice
before the game and if the Enemy rolls any dice and the result is an exact match of your dice you rolled in the beginning you get free Tzeentch demons
(Horrors, Screamer / Flamers or a Lord of Change).. Just as planned And, with "Prophet of the Voices", a relic item from the Crimson Slaughter your
Sorcerer becomes a daemon - malefic daemonology ain't a problem for the Slaughter!

The Daemonprince itself is always fun; Yes - the Tzeentch-powers are weak, but take 1 and roll for something else. You probably noticed that Tzeentch
likes his Egyptian theme quite a lot. There's a really cool looking model in the Fantasy/AoS product line of the Undead / Alliance of Death, the Morghast.
With a bit of modification/conversion-effort this guy can look bloody awesome.

For the start, i think the Dark Vengeance chaos-part is really good. Later, you could add some Chaos Daemons or some vehicles - but most importantly,
don't ask DakkaDakka what CSM-units you should get. According to the 'tactics & general discussion'-part, CSM's can't win games.

Imperial Armor 13, Renegades and Heretics from forgeworld is another option to field some chaos. I'm getting back into the game, more of a hobbiest than gamer, but always wanted to do the FW renegades and the time has come.

 Loremaster Of Awesomeness wrote:


What's life like without a challenge? But I see where you're coming from and am not fixed on Tzeentch, it was just an idea from an aesthetics point of view. Why? Do you suggest pledging my allegiance to another dark god? If so which one? I would like an army that is fun to play as well as which is to win a few tournaments Btw, thanks to everyone for the feedback

Sorry to say, but CSMs are nowhere near winning tournaments. It's not that we can't win games, but we simply do not win tournaments. However, that being said, I would never suggest that as a reason to not collect Tzeentch CSMs. If tournament play is what you're after, they'll come around again sooner or later, and there is supposed to be a codex coming out next year.

Also, you are not limited to the Thousand Sons; other named Tzeentch warbands include the Scourged (who have an awesome colour scheme) and the Oracles of Change, or you could make your own.

However, as mentioned, the best Tzeentch units are the Daemons (which have some very strong builds), the Knight with MoT, Daemon Prince with MoT, and Ahriman. Parts of these can alleviate the problems with running Rubric Marines or other weaker units and still make it a decent list. I would, however, never run MoT with Icon of Flame on CSMs. MoT can be good for units with already decent invulnerable saves, e.g. Chaos Lord with a Sigil of Corruption and MoT in TDA has a 2+/3++, which is the best achievable save in the game along with TH/SS Terminators. Icon of Flame to grant Soulblaze is useless however.

Taking Rubric Marines, which grant a lvl1 Sorcerer, and a maxed out Cyclopia Cabal and another 2 lvl3 Sorcerers and Ahriman from a CAD will generate an obscene amount of powers and Warp Charges though. Psychic Shriek, while a little nerfed due to only one casting per unit, is still damn good, and combined with Shrouding and Invisibility, you can do a lot of damage with them.

I don't know how much of a noob you are, but I wrote this a while ago on how to begin an army.

 reiner wrote:

Cultists are fantastic in big globs, but need some fearlessness. Just bear that in mind.

While a digression, no, Cultists are not good. While you're correct in that they need Fearless (which we don't get outside wasting our precious HQ slots or Helcult), they're always in tournament lists because they're 50pt and a squad of CSMs is 75pt. They're the compulsory Troop choice to allow taking more Sorcerers or Daemon Princes. They are objectively worse point for point, more expensive, and have worse options than IG platoons, and the IG aren't exactly raving about their platoons. I usually run 70-100 Cultists a game, usually in a Helcult plus another squad to unlock another Sorcerer (Though I'm gonna just run Cyclopia Cabals from now on I think). There's a reason FW made Imperial Militia/Cult units so cheap or made them come back on a 2+ when destroyed in an Unending Host detachment.

 ChazSexington wrote:

While a digression, no, Cultists are not good. While you're correct in that they need Fearless (which we don't get outside wasting our precious HQ slots or Helcult), they're always in tournament lists because they're 50pt and a squad of CSMs is 75pt. They're the compulsory Troop choice to allow taking more Sorcerers or Daemon Princes. They are objectively worse point for point, more expensive, and have worse options than IG platoons, and the IG aren't exactly raving about their platoons. I usually run 70-100 Cultists a game, usually in a Helcult plus another squad to unlock another Sorcerer (Though I'm gonna just run Cyclopia Cabals from now on I think). There's a reason FW made Imperial Militia/Cult units so cheap or made them come back on a 2+ when destroyed in an Unending Host detachment.

I don't disagree with this evaluation. Helcult is the best way to use them or as plague zombies (which the OPis not), Othewise, minimal squads..

 reiner wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

While a digression, no, Cultists are not good. While you're correct in that they need Fearless (which we don't get outside wasting our precious HQ slots or Helcult), they're always in tournament lists because they're 50pt and a squad of CSMs is 75pt. They're the compulsory Troop choice to allow taking more Sorcerers or Daemon Princes. They are objectively worse point for point, more expensive, and have worse options than IG platoons, and the IG aren't exactly raving about their platoons. I usually run 70-100 Cultists a game, usually in a Helcult plus another squad to unlock another Sorcerer (Though I'm gonna just run Cyclopia Cabals from now on I think). There's a reason FW made Imperial Militia/Cult units so cheap or made them come back on a 2+ when destroyed in an Unending Host detachment.

I don't disagree with this evaluation. Helcult is the best way to use them or as plague zombies (which the OPis not), Othewise, minimal squads..

Aye, I forgot about Plague Zombies!