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So I picked up a renegade IK box set. Do BA players or marines players think that 1 or 2 IKs work better as an addition to marine lists?

Additionally, how do people feel about the new Leviathan dread and Sicaran as assistance for BA?

Most Vanilla marines list actually end up having more point effiecient options than knights. BA on the other hand...couldn't hurt I guess? It doesn't synergize that well but it's not bad. If you run two you start hitting the point where you might need to question what army you're ACTUALLY playing though.

Knights are decent. Not amazing but can do the job. I'd say that you're better off with 1 or 3 rather than 2.

They require you to alter your list though. As they have a specific of being very vulnerable to melee deathstars and melta drops on their own. But when you have something that can pull away those melee attacks (and preferably still survive) or bauble wrap your sides against drops, you're golden.

BA don't really have something unkillable but on the other hand you have death co and sang guards that have nice offence and you could use your knight as an anvil instead of hammer vs units that allow it.

All in all, it could be quite good. But you'll need a cullexus against deathstars.

If I'm running a single fire support knight (missile pod, gatling cannon and the DBC) I run it on its own. However think BA could benefit more from a pair of DBC/ Reaper chainsword Knights than one uber-expensive dakka knight. They provide 4x 8/3 large blasts on top of target saturation (something BA desperately need help with ). Nobody wants to risk getting smacked with the D and then getting stomped out so most likely they'll focus on the Knights over your other units that usually get shot up turn 1.

Also, I like running Sicarans, but I don't think they sync with BA as well. I usually keep them cheap with just the turret, hull HB and AC. The way I used to play BA, my HS slots were extremely valuable and the Sicaran always had to compete with fast vindicators and Las preds. Honestly I think a fire raptor would be a better investment.

As for the leviathan, I don't know. I think it would come with the same problems all dreads come with only 3x as expensive and with better shooting or assault. I can see one working out for normal SM, but I don't a leviathan would make much difference for BA unless you're bringing a luscius pod for it.

Also, since you're not a fan of stormchickens, the carapace autocannons on Knights provide some decent sky fire.

I'd be interested to see some BA/IK lists.

I can't quite figure out how they'd fit in with BA - armour saturation is better done with SM. MSU bikes/jumpers will probably get shot up by all the anti-infantry shooting that can't touch the Knight.

I guess as Dantes_Baals says, run cheap punchy ones instead of Furioso Dreads

Edit - A Warden fits into my 1500 list relatively easily, may give it a go. NB - I don't play Eldar in my small group (where this list would fall over to Scat Bikes/WKs)

Sang Priest w/ BIke
4x5 DC w/ JP, 1x Axe
4x5 DC w/ JP, 1x Axe
4x5 DC w/ JP, 1x Axe
4x5 DC w/ JP, 1x Axe
5x Scouts
5x Scouts
3x Bikes w/ 2x Grav; MM Attack Bike
3x Bikes w/ 2x Grav; MM Attack Bike
3x Bikes w/ 2x Grav
Knight Warden

Dantes_Baals wrote:
If I'm running a single fire support knight (missile pod, gatling cannon and the DBC) I run it on its own. However think BA could benefit more from a pair of DBC/ Reaper chainsword Knights than one uber-expensive dakka knight. They provide 4x 8/3 large blasts on top of target saturation (something BA desperately need help with ). Nobody wants to risk getting smacked with the D and then getting stomped out so most likely they'll focus on the Knights over your other units that usually get shot up turn 1.

Also, I like running Sicarans, but I don't think they sync with BA as well. I usually keep them cheap with just the turret, hull HB and AC. The way I used to play BA, my HS slots were extremely valuable and the Sicaran always had to compete with fast vindicators and Las preds. Honestly I think a fire raptor would be a better investment.

As for the leviathan, I don't know. I think it would come with the same problems all dreads come with only 3x as expensive and with better shooting or assault. I can see one working out for normal SM, but I don't a leviathan would make much difference for BA unless you're bringing a luscius pod for it.

Also, since you're not a fan of stormchickens, the carapace autocannons on Knights provide some decent sky fire.

I don't use BA heavy support generally speaking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
Knights are decent. Not amazing but can do the job. I'd say that you're better off with 1 or 3 rather than 2.

They require you to alter your list though. As they have a specific of being very vulnerable to melee deathstars and melta drops on their own. But when you have something that can pull away those melee attacks (and preferably still survive) or bauble wrap your sides against drops, you're golden.

BA don't really have something unkillable but on the other hand you have death co and sang guards that have nice offence and you could use your knight as an anvil instead of hammer vs units that allow it.

All in all, it could be quite good. But you'll need a cullexus against deathstars.

Not all deathstars are psychic, so I probably wont' use the cullexus. I was also thinking of picking up so DA land speeders to run their intercept formation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bartali wrote:
I'd be interested to see some BA/IK lists.

I can't quite figure out how they'd fit in with BA - armour saturation is better done with SM. MSU bikes/jumpers will probably get shot up by all the anti-infantry shooting that can't touch the Knight.

I guess as Dantes_Baals says, run cheap punchy ones instead of Furioso Dreads

Edit - A Warden fits into my 1500 list relatively easily, may give it a go. NB - I don't play Eldar in my small group (where this list would fall over to Scat Bikes/WKs)

Sang Priest w/ BIke
4x5 DC w/ JP, 1x Axe
4x5 DC w/ JP, 1x Axe
4x5 DC w/ JP, 1x Axe
4x5 DC w/ JP, 1x Axe
5x Scouts
5x Scouts
3x Bikes w/ 2x Grav; MM Attack Bike
3x Bikes w/ 2x Grav; MM Attack Bike
3x Bikes w/ 2x Grav
Knight Warden

I was thinking of trying drop Furiosos AND Knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Knights are fast and punchy. Superficially, that seems like it should work well with BA.

Not sure how helpful a Leviathan Dread is, I've never run one but I've never heard anybody say it's worth the points. If you're looking at forgeworld have you considered a Deredeo? Adding an IK to Blood Angels is a no brainer to me, drawing fire away from your assaulting units. If you also drop a furioso or two on top of the enemy they will have a lot to think about.

I'm not impressed with Deredeos. They are very fragile for their points.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not impressed with Deredeos. They are very fragile for their points.

I dunno dude I am looking at the Deredeo rules for the first time now... doesn't look too shabby. AV13 front, 5++ against shooting, 6++ in CC; he can take "Armoured Ceramite" for 20points but the PDF doesn't say what that is unfortunately.

He hits on 2's and with Sunder can re-roll any Armor Pen rolls. If it doesn't move it can Skyfire/Interceptor, and the missile launcher upgrade is heavy 3 "Pinning" and doesn't need LOS haha...

As Blood Angel players we don't have much access to Pinning but it's pretty good. They'll fire only Snap-shots, won't get Overwatch and units without grenades like Termies (and bikes?) won't suffer Initiative penalties for assaulting into/out-of cover.

Craaaapp - I gotta buy one of these now!

If I remember correctly, armored ceramite gives you immunity to the melta special rule.

 Gunzhard wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not impressed with Deredeos. They are very fragile for their points.

I dunno dude I am looking at the Deredeo rules for the first time now... doesn't look too shabby. AV13 front, 5++ against shooting, 6++ in CC; he can take "Armoured Ceramite" for 20points but the PDF doesn't say what that is unfortunately.

He hits on 2's and with Sunder can re-roll any Armor Pen rolls. If it doesn't move it can Skyfire/Interceptor, and the missile launcher upgrade is heavy 3 "Pinning" and doesn't need LOS haha...

As Blood Angel players we don't have much access to Pinning but it's pretty good. They'll fire only Snap-shots, won't get Overwatch and units without grenades like Termies (and bikes?) won't suffer Initiative penalties for assaulting into/out-of cover.

Craaaapp - I gotta buy one of these now!

That just doesn't add up for me for the price.

Yeah it isn't exactly cheap... but even our stupid Librarian Dread is 150points.

The hull point mechanic basically ruins these models.

Oh yeah well but that's all armour not just these Dreads. The Invul save at least gives you a chance too.

 Gunzhard wrote:
Oh yeah well but that's all armour not just these Dreads. The Invul save at least gives you a chance too.

I can stick my dread behind a bush and get a 5+ cover save. It doesn't really help that much.

Eh, ok yeah but that's all armour. Granted this one is more expensive but it'll dish out a hell-of-a-lot more fire-power in the first 2 turns (before it dies like every dread) and still is slightly more survivable.

 Gunzhard wrote:
Eh, ok yeah but that's all armour. Granted this one is more expensive but it'll dish out a hell-of-a-lot more fire-power in the first 2 turns (before it dies like every dread) and still is slightly more survivable.

Try it out and see. I've gone up against them and never had a problem.

I would try out a couple of Knight Wardens (or 3 in a Baronial Court) and then spam Twin Lascannon/Plasmagun Razorbacks. That should give you a bunch of obsec units and the Blood Angels Razors are fast, which gives them alot more mobility with their firepower. It should play similarly to Reecius' Stormtrooper list:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/05/militarum-tempestus-broadside-bash-tourney-report.html

Obviously you'd have to experiment with what the right mix of Knights to Blood Angels is. Plus, you can run a Librarian as your HQ and get access to some sweet "Prescience" for those Wardens/Crusaders!

 whitedragon wrote:
I would try out a couple of Knight Wardens (or 3 in a Baronial Court) and then spam Twin Lascannon/Plasmagun Razorbacks. That should give you a bunch of obsec units and the Blood Angels Razors are fast, which gives them alot more mobility with their firepower. It should play similarly to Reecius' Stormtrooper list:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/05/militarum-tempestus-broadside-bash-tourney-report.html

Obviously you'd have to experiment with what the right mix of Knights to Blood Angels is. Plus, you can run a Librarian as your HQ and get access to some sweet "Prescience" for those Wardens/Crusaders!

Sounds cool but if you're using the Baal Strike Force "CAD" then none of the units get Obsec.

I never use Baal Strike Force anymore.

Martel732 wrote:
I never use Baal Strike Force anymore.

Do you use Formations? ...or just regular CAD? I'm not sure losing the BSF bonus is worth Obsec.

The formation giving the power Weapons and Combi-Weapons is the only thing I would consider good. Otherwise they're best off with a CAD.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The formation giving the power Weapons and Combi-Weapons is the only thing I would consider good. Otherwise they're best off with a CAD.

I agree about the Blood Angel formations but ...CAD gives your Troops Obsec, the Blood Angel troops are totally lame though; Baal Strike Force gives everyone +1 Initiative when they charge, not just Troops, I have to think that's the better option.

Except that CAD gives your troops and advantage over a bunch of other lists: Obj sec.

I don't find the +1 init to be that useful at all in 7th ed.

I find +1 Init very useful, especially against other Marines, which are everywhere.

If CAD gave Obsec to everyone I'd say sure, but just to our, totally lame, Troops, nah...

It gives it to the transports as well. It also gives it to newly buffed melee scouts that cost 60 pts a squad.

The +1 init does not allow BA squads to win any battle that they couldn't at init 4. Deathstars are still deathstars and shooty units are still shooty units. BA don't need the +1 init because most marine squads are actually bad at assault.

Well our scouts did just get better that's a good point, but BA tacticals are flat in most Blood Angels lists, and even Non-Obsec units/Transports can hold objectives - they just obviously can't take them from other Obsec units, which can happen, but in my experience it's not a typical game occurrence.

I definitely don't agree about the Init though, that has gained me a lot, especially against more elite Xenos where I'm now fighting Simultaneous instead of weakly hitting back after major losses. Blood Angels are only good in first round of combat anyway hah.

Most marine squads are bad at assault but they still take a punch and keep standing, not so much for xenos. And yeah Deathstars are still Deathstars and shooty are shooty, doesn't change anything to me.

I have a won a lot of games by just being able to get a fast Rhino to an objective and not having to get rid of the non-obj sec unit there.

The tacs aren't good, but 24" in one turn for a Rhino is very useful for scoring. The heavy flamer is an acceptable surrogate for assaulting out of Rhino.

Just remember that you'll strike before Necrons anyway, any Scatterbikes or Warp Spiders you catch (and how'd you do that?) won't do much before you strike anyway, and TWC literally don't care what you do.

So basically the I5 is useful against lesser armies which doesn't say anything.

But I might be able to steal a VP from TWC for a couple of turns by parking a Rhino with tac marines on their objective. And tie them up for two turns. Possibly more if the objective is remote.

Grey hunters are the only thing I can think of where init 5 makes a huge difference. That's such a 5th ed problem, though.