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Ok so im necrons fighting dark angels and i had a unit of immortals with an attached overlord and my opponent was trying to get overwhelming firepower tactical objective which rewards a vic point based on killing in the Shooting. The phase ended with all my immortals being dead but with the independent character overlord remaining. Independent character rule says for all "rule purposes" the independent counts as part of the unit but we werent sure if this fell under that category or not. Does DA get the victory point or is that unit still existing. any feedback would help, thanks!

It's my understanding that the necron immortals count as a unit. When they all die, your IC became his own unit again.

The Independent Character rules state, "If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase."

I can understand how the point could be argued both yes and no. On the one hand the unit consisting of Immortals and Overlord was not completely destroyed during your Shooting phase, because as above the Independent Character did not become its own unit again until the start of the Assault phase, but on the other hand the Immortals unit definitely was completely destroyed during the Shooting phase.

Yeah, I let him have it anyways. We still weren't completely sure. was 15 - 12 in favor of DA. He had Firstblood, warlord and linebreaker

I'd let him have it also, but from a rules perspective, the unit of Immortals isn't "gone" until the start of the following turn when the IC is removed from the Immortals unit... resulting in an Immortals unit with no remaining models. I'd argue that from a RaW standpoint, the Immortals unit isn't truly "dead" until the start of the following phase... which would NOT be during the Shooting Phase.

Again, I'd let him have it. I think this is yet another example of how poorly written rules create weird interactions that seem to run counter to expected intent. My expectation is that they intended killing all of the core Immortals to give a VP. RaW doesn't quite support that, but it's close.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, here's an interesting follow-up question...

You have a unit of Immortals with TWO attached ICs. All of the Immortals are killed in the Shooting Phase, leaving the two attached ICs alone in the unit. For the sake of argument, the two ICs are within 2" of each other. Did you kill the unit of Immortals? RaW says no, because neither IC is the last remaining model in the unit, so neither IC splits off and becomes a unit of his own. Strictly speaking, and from a RaW perspective, the "Immortals Unit" is still on the table... it just doesn't have any Immortals models in it. The "Immortals Unit" isn't destroyed until either A. one of the ICs is killed, leaving the last IC to form a unit of his own or B. the controlling player chooses for one IC to leave the other, again forming two new units of one model each. Agreed? Silly, but that's how the rules work.

We really need a full rewrite of these rules. I actually love how AoS handles "ICs". They never join a unit, are far more survivable than an average trooper and usually give bonuses to either all XXX type units or one XXX type unit in range.

 Kriswall wrote:
I'd let him have it also, but from a rules perspective, the unit of Immortals isn't "gone" until the start of the following turn when the IC is removed from the Immortals unit... resulting in an Immortals unit with no remaining models. I'd argue that from a RaW standpoint, the Immortals unit isn't truly "dead" until the start of the following phase... which would NOT be during the Shooting Phase.

Again, I'd let him have it. I think this is yet another example of how poorly written rules create weird interactions that seem to run counter to expected intent. My expectation is that they intended killing all of the core Immortals to give a VP. RaW doesn't quite support that, but it's close.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, here's an interesting follow-up question...

You have a unit of Immortals with TWO attached ICs. All of the Immortals are killed in the Shooting Phase, leaving the two attached ICs alone in the unit. For the sake of argument, the two ICs are within 2" of each other. Did you kill the unit of Immortals? RaW says no, because neither IC is the last remaining model in the unit, so neither IC splits off and becomes a unit of his own. Strictly speaking, and from a RaW perspective, the "Immortals Unit" is still on the table... it just doesn't have any Immortals models in it. The "Immortals Unit" isn't destroyed until either A. one of the ICs is killed, leaving the last IC to form a unit of his own or B. the controlling player chooses for one IC to leave the other, again forming two new units of one model each. Agreed? Silly, but that's how the rules work.

We really need a full rewrite of these rules. I actually love how AoS handles "ICs". They never join a unit, are far more survivable than an average trooper and usually give bonuses to either all XXX type units or one XXX type unit in range.

Gotta correct you here Im afraid - your logic is flawed, I think because you are looking at it from the wrong angle - the rules are absolutely clear on the Subject:

The penultimate line of the Joining and Leaving a Unit subsection of the Independent character special rule states

If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase.

So at the start of the next Phase (so the Assault Phase, if they were shooting casualties) the Immortals are wiped out, the unit ceases to exist. The "Immortals Unit" has been destroyed. Then since both Independent characters who joined that unit are no longer part of that unit, neither can be considered to be "Joined to" a unit.

This is due to the fact that when the Immortals Unit ceases to exist at the start of the Enemies Assault Phase, and an Independent Character cannot join another unit in any phase other than the Controlling players Movement Phase.

I think yu are getting confused here because of the fact that Independent Characters can join up to become a "Powerful Multi-Character Unit" - But that is something that happens in the Movement Phase.

Each Independent Character must have joined the Immortals Unit as it is not possible for an infantry unit to join to another unit. The order of operations: "Characters can Join Units" however Units cannot Join Characters, thats important here. Its a subtle distiction, but quite clear.

Hope that clears it up

Answering the original poster, at the end of the shooting phase the unit of immortals is dead, thus thats one unit destroyed. If he had killed the Immortals AND the Independent Character, then he would have got 2 units killed, and should he have killed a second IC attached to the unit that would have been 3 and as such he could have scored a D3 had the Tactical Objective Card told him to

 Gingerwerewolf wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
I'd let him have it also, but from a rules perspective, the unit of Immortals isn't "gone" until the start of the following turn when the IC is removed from the Immortals unit... resulting in an Immortals unit with no remaining models. I'd argue that from a RaW standpoint, the Immortals unit isn't truly "dead" until the start of the following phase... which would NOT be during the Shooting Phase.

Again, I'd let him have it. I think this is yet another example of how poorly written rules create weird interactions that seem to run counter to expected intent. My expectation is that they intended killing all of the core Immortals to give a VP. RaW doesn't quite support that, but it's close.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, here's an interesting follow-up question...

You have a unit of Immortals with TWO attached ICs. All of the Immortals are killed in the Shooting Phase, leaving the two attached ICs alone in the unit. For the sake of argument, the two ICs are within 2" of each other. Did you kill the unit of Immortals? RaW says no, because neither IC is the last remaining model in the unit, so neither IC splits off and becomes a unit of his own. Strictly speaking, and from a RaW perspective, the "Immortals Unit" is still on the table... it just doesn't have any Immortals models in it. The "Immortals Unit" isn't destroyed until either A. one of the ICs is killed, leaving the last IC to form a unit of his own or B. the controlling player chooses for one IC to leave the other, again forming two new units of one model each. Agreed? Silly, but that's how the rules work.

We really need a full rewrite of these rules. I actually love how AoS handles "ICs". They never join a unit, are far more survivable than an average trooper and usually give bonuses to either all XXX type units or one XXX type unit in range.

Gotta correct you here Im afraid - your logic is flawed, I think because you are looking at it from the wrong angle - the rules are absolutely clear on the Subject:

The penultimate line of the Joining and Leaving a Unit subsection of the Independent character special rule states

If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase.

So at the start of the next Phase (so the Assault Phase, if they were shooting casualties) the Immortals are wiped out, the unit ceases to exist. The "Immortals Unit" has been destroyed. Then since both Independent characters who joined that unit are no longer part of that unit, neither can be considered to be "Joined to" a unit.

This is due to the fact that when the Immortals Unit ceases to exist at the start of the Enemies Assault Phase, and an Independent Character cannot join another unit in any phase other than the Controlling players Movement Phase.

I think yu are getting confused here because of the fact that Independent Characters can join up to become a "Powerful Multi-Character Unit" - But that is something that happens in the Movement Phase.

Each Independent Character must have joined the Immortals Unit as it is not possible for an infantry unit to join to another unit. The order of operations: "Characters can Join Units" however Units cannot Join Characters, thats important here. Its a subtle distiction, but quite clear.

Hope that clears it up

Answering the original poster, at the end of the shooting phase the unit of immortals is dead, thus thats one unit destroyed. If he had killed the Immortals AND the Independent Character, then he would have got 2 units killed, and should he have killed a second IC attached to the unit that would have been 3 and as such he could have scored a D3 had the Tactical Objective Card told him to

So, IC #2 joins a unit consisting of 5x Immortals and IC #1. The 5x Immortals die. IC #1 looks at the unit he's currently in and sees IC #2. Ergo, not all of the other models in the unit have died. IC #2 looks at the unit he's currently in and sees IC #1. Ergo, not all of the other models in the unit have died. You have no permission/requirement to remove either IC from the unit at the start of the following phase while at least one other mode in the unit is still alive (the other IC). You need to either demonstrate that ALL ICs are split off when all other non-ICs are killed (not in the rules) or that other ICs don't count as part of a unit (the rules pretty much contradict this).

Remember, there is no such thing as an "Immortals Unit". There is just a unit that happens to be composed of Immortals and ICs.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
You seem to be under the impression that the "Immortals Unit" is just the Immortals models. It's not. It's the Immortals models AND all attached ICs.

 Kriswall wrote:
Remember, there is no such thing as an "Immortals Unit". There is just a unit that happens to be composed of Immortals and ICs.

To be more accurate, there is a unit with the name "Immortals" which is composed of Immortal modelss and joined ICs. So, there is an "Immortals unit", but not an "Immortals Unit".

 Kriswall wrote:
So, IC #2 joins a unit consisting of 5x Immortals and IC #1. The 5x Immortals die. IC #1 looks at the unit he's currently in and sees IC #2. Ergo, not all of the other models in the unit have died. IC #2 looks at the unit he's currently in and sees IC #1. Ergo, not all of the other models in the unit have died. You have no permission/requirement to remove either IC from the unit at the start of the following phase while at least one other mode in the unit is still alive (the other IC). You need to either demonstrate that ALL ICs are split off when all other non-ICs are killed (not in the rules) or that other ICs don't count as part of a unit (the rules pretty much contradict this).

Remember, there is no such thing as an "Immortals Unit". There is just a unit that happens to be composed of Immortals and ICs.

You seem to be under the impression that the "Immortals Unit" is just the Immortals models. It's not. It's the Immortals models AND all attached ICs.

But at the end of the phase, you look at both ICs and neither of them are now attached to the unit, since the original unit that they are attached to no longer exists.

In essence, you are saying that because something happens simultaneously you ignore it? The Unit that IC 1 joined is not the same unit that it now (potentially) find it in. You are trying to change the state of the unit from being a non IC based Unit to an entirely IC based unit.

Also, by that same reasoning, in KP missions as long as you keep those two ICs alive you can never kill the unit? The logic is flawed

 Gingerwerewolf wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
So, IC #2 joins a unit consisting of 5x Immortals and IC #1. The 5x Immortals die. IC #1 looks at the unit he's currently in and sees IC #2. Ergo, not all of the other models in the unit have died. IC #2 looks at the unit he's currently in and sees IC #1. Ergo, not all of the other models in the unit have died. You have no permission/requirement to remove either IC from the unit at the start of the following phase while at least one other mode in the unit is still alive (the other IC). You need to either demonstrate that ALL ICs are split off when all other non-ICs are killed (not in the rules) or that other ICs don't count as part of a unit (the rules pretty much contradict this).

Remember, there is no such thing as an "Immortals Unit". There is just a unit that happens to be composed of Immortals and ICs.

You seem to be under the impression that the "Immortals Unit" is just the Immortals models. It's not. It's the Immortals models AND all attached ICs.

But at the end of the phase, you look at both ICs and neither of them are now attached to the unit, since the original unit that they are attached to no longer exists.

In essence, you are saying that because something happens simultaneously you ignore it? The Unit that IC 1 joined is not the same unit that it now (potentially) find it in. You are trying to change the state of the unit from being a non IC based Unit to an entirely IC based unit.

Also, by that same reasoning, in KP missions as long as you keep those two ICs alive you can never kill the unit? The logic is flawed

IC 1 and IC 2 are attached to a unit. Per the IC rules, they are both members of the unit. Both IC's still have another member of the unit there, and as such, the unit is still in existence. This might not mean much, and the only way I can think it matters is if you attach a MC IC to a unit at some point after the non-MC IC, but I digress.

As for KP, they are calculated at the end of the mission, at which time ICs are no longer part of the unit(s) they have joined.

 Happyjew wrote:


IC 1 and IC 2 are attached to a unit. Per the IC rules, they are both members of the unit. Both IC's still have another member of the unit there, and as such, the unit is still in existence. This might not mean much, and the only way I can think it matters is if you attach a MC IC to a unit at some point after the non-MC IC, but I digress.

As for KP, they are calculated at the end of the mission, at which time ICs are no longer part of the unit(s) they have joined.

So by your ruling, at the end of the phase, the unit still exists, which means by the end of the turn, the unit still exists, which means that the Person doesnt count as killing any unit for Kill Points / Overwhelming Firepower or any other Maelstrom card. If the unit still exists for the ICs then the unit still exists for all other rules.

I disagree with this ruling a great deal. You are mixing and matching the Term "Unit" to mean both the Immortals and the Immortals with the IC in it.

You are also trying to say that: An IC can join a unit, and then an MC IC can join a unit. But if they try to join the other way around then its not allowed. That again is rediculous. If there is an MC Independent character, then if they join a unit, NO other ICs can join, and if they are already in the unit they must leave

P166, 6th paragraph down is in effect here. The Unit, that both ICs joined no longer exists. So they are not in any unit as they may not join or leave a unit, other by casulties in any phase but the movement phase

The enemy unit is not completely destroyed in the shooting phase. It is also not Completely destroyed in the assault phase(as that is contingent on loss of the final model); it simply ceases to exist.

Post Script: big guns never tire and The Scouring both have me question my possition on this: a devestator squad or an assault squad could both become "free units" after destruction via the IC rules in this case(along with many others from other codices; those 2 are just quick examples). The crux of this issue is that during a given phase in which the last member of the unit other than the IC is removed as a casualty the unit the IC has become a member of for all rules purposes still exists and thus jas not been completely destroyed by definition. At the start of the next phase the IC simply becomes a unit unto himself(again) so the unit that died around him simply ceases to exist without being completely destroyed(which required the last member to be removed as a casualty, falling back(or in ongoing reserve) at the end of game.