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I understand the second founding; the chapter masters were chosen from existing marines that had distinguished themselves, and had often, if not always, been in command before hand. I also understand how chapter masters are chosen for existing chapters when the current chapter master dies.

This still leaves the question: how are chapter masters for chapters created during new foundings chosen? For instance, how was the Lamenter's chapter master chosen? The Astral Claws?

I think it is a perplexing question because, according to my knowledge of fluff, these foundings are done with existing geneseed and are often done without the consent of the parent chapter. This means a chapter of entirely new Space Marines just pops into existence. If the leadership of the new chapter is chosen from amongst newly created battle-brothers, how are these chapters not just wiped out due to incompetent leadership?

I would love to hear thoughts on this.

If I remember there was a piece where it describes that the Chapter from which the geneseed originates from sends a contingent of it's veterans to train the new chapter's high command. The actual founding of that chapter happens over the course of several hundred years, during which the new chapter's command structure are taken under the tutelage of their parent chapter's veterans. While it won't make them anywhere on par with existing Chapter Masters, these new Chapter Masters are not novices in the art of war either.

I also remember that these veterans would often stick with the new chapter for a while after it has been officially "founded" to act as advisors for the Chapter Command, and only leaves when they deem the new Chapter capable of being fully autonomous. This is probably why Blood Angel successors have their own Sanguinary Guards and know about how to deal with the Black Rage and how Dark Angel Successor Chapters also have Inner Circles.

I don't think that Space Marines are capable of being incompetent leaders, due to the way they're trained, etc.

I feel like at a certain point, they'd fail out of becoming a full battle-brother if they were truly incompetent at leading.

So any given Space Marine could probably adequately lead the chapter at the start,until other marines are given a chance to distinguish themselves and it is time to choose a new Chapter Master.

Yeah I always assumed new chapters were assigned some veterans from their progenitor chapters etc.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
If I remember there was a piece where it describes that the Chapter from which the geneseed originates from sends a contingent of it's veterans to train the new chapter's high command. The actual founding of that chapter happens over the course of several hundred years, during which the new chapter's command structure are taken under the tutelage of their parent chapter's veterans. While it won't make them anywhere on par with existing Chapter Masters, these new Chapter Masters are not novices in the art of war either.

I also remember that these veterans would often stick with the new chapter for a while after it has been officially "founded" to act as advisors for the Chapter Command, and only leaves when they deem the new Chapter capable of being fully autonomous. This is probably why Blood Angel successors have their own Sanguinary Guards and know about how to deal with the Black Rage and how Dark Angel Successor Chapters also have Inner Circles.

While the "training cadre" theory has been around for awhile and makes the most sense, there's no actual evidence of it happening since there has never been any information regarding the actual mechanics of a founding beyond the vaguest of second-hand descriptions regarding the cursed founding specifically, which is not one I would use to extrapolate to other foundings.

While a related chapter may be notified when a successor is made, outside of the Dark Angels and the Blood Angels, they may not even care, at most sending a delegate to the new chapter's homeworld to say hello and drop off a housewarming gift. I wouldn't be surprised if the initial command staff was instead instilled with leadership using psychoindoctrination and other mental conditioning a la The Matrix, which we've seen used in the Deathwatch novel both for skill acquisition and punishment.

Officially there's nothing on how they're trained, as most sources just skips over that and say "they get enough marines and AdMechs give them the vehicles and bling bling". However there are random stories of how each chapter is founded, including one that I remember where the "training cadre" actually became part of the new chapter's command.

Also there's always the Codex Astartes, so worse comes to worse the new Chapter Master can always look at the Index.

If your parent chapter or geneseed had a suitable captain, they could take the role. Be assigned along with the training cadre?

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Officially there's nothing on how they're trained, as most sources just skips over that and say "they get enough marines and AdMechs give them the vehicles and bling bling". However there are random stories of how each chapter is founded, including one that I remember where the "training cadre" actually became part of the new chapter's command.

Also there's always the Codex Astartes, so worse comes to worse the new Chapter Master can always look at the Index.

If you can find that source that'd be great but until then, I remain skeptical. This discussions been going on for years and an official source has never surfaced.

I will link you if I ever come across it again but it was something I read while researching Space Marine chapters and it was one of those "footnote" chapters.

Well, the requirements for Chapter Master simply require an incredible understanding of the art of war and strategy, right down to how best to use each bullet. Many learn this over several centuries of service but a 100% new chapter would have individuals with a natural inclination towards this already.

On top of this, they would naturally be deployed in conjunction with experienced chapters to learn their trade.

Shouldn't the codex astartes have guidlines on how the formation of a new chapter, including the command, is to procced? Guilliman dealt with how to break up the legions but he must have had time to realise that if his creation was to stick around he'd need a formula for creating new chapters as the need arose.

Other then command I can see a similar problem with the first and tenth company.
Maybe some issues with dreadnoughts too.

 Nerak wrote:
Shouldn't the codex astartes have guidlines on how the formation of a new chapter, including the command, is to procced? Guilliman dealt with how to break up the legions but he must have had time to realise that if his creation was to stick around he'd need a formula for creating new chapters as the need arose.

Other then command I can see a similar problem with the first and tenth company.
Maybe some issues with dreadnoughts too.

First company would be non-existant for a while, or it may compose those who have distinguished themselves in training as being of higher quality. As time goes on it would be filled with exceptional marines and then Vets. 10th would be the same as any other chapter, Scouts who are yet unproven or cannot progress due to full ranks (although would be rare to see that) who are promoted up as casualties and skills allows.

I'm pretty certain the Codex is pretty much the Encyclopedia/Bible of Space Marines, giving a complete breakdown of everything and everything Astartes related, from deployment types, words of wisdom to the length of time and frequency they get to spend on the "Golden Throne." Which would include instructions on setting up a new chapter. Also, if offered the chance to become CM of a new successor Chapter, very few Astartes would turn that down, as it would bring great honour to their current chapter, their company and their legacy, as well as being a great service and honour in itself. For example, if a new UM successor was announced, although they are ironically the least likely to do so, and Calgar asked 1st Company Veteran Midas Leonidas and his squad to become the new CM and Captains, I doubt they would say no

 Deadshot wrote:
On top of this, they would naturally be deployed in conjunction with experienced chapters to learn their trade.

But many Chapters are formed because there's a need for one somewhere, effectively meaning they're dumped in the middle of nowhere tasked with X duties. If they're not fully trained and selfsufficient by then they'll be overrun and destroyed very very soon.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
On top of this, they would naturally be deployed in conjunction with experienced chapters to learn their trade.

But many Chapters are formed because there's a need for one somewhere, effectively meaning they're dumped in the middle of nowhere tasked with X duties. If they're not fully trained and selfsufficient by then they'll be overrun and destroyed very very soon.

Space Marines are always adequetely trained before deployment, hence why the "Veterans from another chapter train them" thing came around. They aren't dumped in the middle of nowhere, they are sent with a purpose

There are also incidents where a chapter is formed as an offshoot of an existing chapter for one reason or another.

If I remember, The Sons of Medusa are this because the Iron Hands didn't like them for some reason.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Nerak wrote:
Shouldn't the codex astartes have guidlines on how the formation of a new chapter, including the command, is to procced? Guilliman dealt with how to break up the legions but he must have had time to realise that if his creation was to stick around he'd need a formula for creating new chapters as the need arose.

Other then command I can see a similar problem with the first and tenth company.
Maybe some issues with dreadnoughts too.

First company would be non-existant for a while, or it may compose those who have distinguished themselves in training as being of higher quality. As time goes on it would be filled with exceptional marines and then Vets. 10th would be the same as any other chapter, Scouts who are yet unproven or cannot progress due to full ranks (although would be rare to see that) who are promoted up as casualties and skills allows.

I'm pretty certain the Codex is pretty much the Encyclopedia/Bible of Space Marines, giving a complete breakdown of everything and everything Astartes related, from deployment types, words of wisdom to the length of time and frequency they get to spend on the "Golden Throne." Which would include instructions on setting up a new chapter. Also, if offered the chance to become CM of a new successor Chapter, very few Astartes would turn that down, as it would bring great honour to their current chapter, their company and their legacy, as well as being a great service and honour in itself. For example, if a new UM successor was announced, although they are ironically the least likely to do so, and Calgar asked 1st Company Veteran Midas Leonidas and his squad to become the new CM and Captains, I doubt they would say no

The end idea would also reinforce chapter customs, and form a strong link to there source, geneseed and former legion.
Start a relationship on strong foundations

For the 2nd founding, many of the chapter masters of the new chapters were captains and commanders of the predecessors. /obvious

TiamatRoar wrote:
For the 2nd founding, many of the chapter masters of the new chapters were captains and commanders of the predecessors. /obvious

That was not the question,

I guess the parent chapter training them makes the most sense

Actually I read that Chapters had existed within the Legions before the 2nd founding and each had it's own Chapter Master (they just all answered to the Primarch). When the chapters broke up in the 2nd founding, barring special cases like Sigismund, the Chapter Masters just took their chapter with them and chose a new name.

That was only the case in the Ultramarines legion. They already had the chapter system in place. Many of the primarchs disagreed with the chapter system and, when the codex astartes was presented (post HH), it was only accepted by about half of the primarchs.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
For the 2nd founding, many of the chapter masters of the new chapters were captains and commanders of the predecessors. /obvious

That was not the question,

I guess the parent chapter training them makes the most sense

Don't see why it has to be parent chapter though. Okay same geneseed makes it easier but if parent chapter isn't available/willing why not have some other chapter that's available to the task to train them up?

If one is basing new blood angel based chapter but nearest blood angels are like other side of the galaxy seems bit inefficient to bring...Surely some other existing(maybe another blood angel successor) chapter could do the trick as well?

 Deadshot wrote:
Well, the requirements for Chapter Master simply require an incredible understanding of the art of war and strategy, right down to how best to use each bullet. Many learn this over several centuries of service but a 100% new chapter would have individuals with a natural inclination towards this already.

I think this is key here. When a new guard regiment is founded, they make officers from people who made the grade or had the right connections.
Space marines aren't blank slates- there will be some who show leadership and aptitude for command among the 10 or so years it takes to turn aspirants into battle brothers.
Hypno-Indoctrination will assist them and the Codex Astartes will feature prominently during these sessions (I know Kung-Fu)
The new chapter will have been training together for 10 years in live fire exercises and their Chapter Master will be chosen on merit.

Of course, when an existing chapter gets the nod to found a new chapter, the process is easier- a company captain gets the job, his men become the veterans. The Highlords may contribute seed or the new chapter may just receive an excess from the parent.

tneva82 wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
For the 2nd founding, many of the chapter masters of the new chapters were captains and commanders of the predecessors. /obvious

That was not the question,

I guess the parent chapter training them makes the most sense

Don't see why it has to be parent chapter though. Okay same geneseed makes it easier but if parent chapter isn't available/willing why not have some other chapter that's available to the task to train them up?

If one is basing new blood angel based chapter but nearest blood angels are like other side of the galaxy seems bit inefficient to bring...Surely some other existing(maybe another blood angel successor) chapter could do the trick as well?

Depends on the chapter, Ultramarine successors or other more "normal" chapters could be trained from any chapters veterans (unless you don't want some strange zealot indoctrination)
If the founding is initiated by the high lords than they control who trains them. With Chapter with dark secrets, they just don't allow others to train their successor chapters when they initiate a new founding.

The first Chapter Master of a new Chapter is virtually always a veteran from the parent Chapter I think. A new Chapter will always require a small core of veterans to put all of the new recruits through the conversion and training processes.

tneva82 wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
For the 2nd founding, many of the chapter masters of the new chapters were captains and commanders of the predecessors. /obvious

That was not the question,

I guess the parent chapter training them makes the most sense

Don't see why it has to be parent chapter though. Okay same geneseed makes it easier but if parent chapter isn't available/willing why not have some other chapter that's available to the task to train them up?

If one is basing new blood angel based chapter but nearest blood angels are like other side of the galaxy seems bit inefficient to bring...Surely some other existing(maybe another blood angel successor) chapter could do the trick as well?

The only canon source I know of that actually supports the idea of training cadres at all is NovaMarines entry in Imperial Armour volume 9, which actually says of them:
Descendants: None officially listed, but they are known to have had the honour of their brethren selected to aid the founding of several Ultramarines gene-seed successor chapters in the past, notably the Dark Sons and Angels of Fury.

I'm pretty sure that simple survival over a long span of time in dire situations leads to promotions when needed.

Darthslowe wrote:

I think it is a perplexing question because, according to my knowledge of fluff, these foundings are done with existing geneseed and are often done without the consent of the parent chapter. This means a chapter of entirely new Space Marines just pops into existence. If the leadership of the new chapter is chosen from amongst newly created battle-brothers, how are these chapters not just wiped out due to incompetent leadership?

I would love to hear thoughts on this.

Who over the chapter master ends up being, they are still in charge of either 1000 scouts or 1000 marines who are just about qualified for the Ninth Company devastator squads. They could have Calgary, Culn, and Azrael as officers and they would be less powerful than most chapters, because they have inexperienced marines. If they go out on their own, with Dante and Sicarius in charge, they will still not perform perfectly.

In a normal chapter, there are inexperienced scouts and reserve marines. What they are used for is support of battle companies, e.g. battle company is attacking a citadel in a hive city, and there are reserve marines making diversionary attacks or fighting a rearguard against more enemy forces that are trying to relieve the defenders.

That's the level of capability that new chapters have. They are a thousand guys who can support battle companies. The only thing they can reasonably do is fight with other chapters for several decades. Then, their chapter master doesn't have the opportunity to destroy the chapter through incompetent leadership. The person making the decisions is someone experienced who is running the campaign, like Logan Grimnar, who commanded all the Imperials in the thirteenth black crusade, or Carab Culln, who was Magister Militum for the loyalists in the Badaab war.

If there is a senior chapter master who has deployed the reserve company to a planet to fight with a battle company, and a battle company captain commanding the three or four companies on the planet, then the other captains of those companies have very limited responsibilities. They are sort of platoon leaders, or second lieutenants. They don't have as much power to accidentally destroy their companies.

So the chapter master of a new chapter mainly has to impress another chapter master enough the he lets them crusade with his chapter. It doesn't take more than a very bright junior officer to do that. You can appoint junior officers right away from new marines, because that's what officers usually are. It's a different job than being a battle brother.

pelicaniforce wrote:

Darthslowe wrote:

I think it is a perplexing question because, according to my knowledge of fluff, these foundings are done with existing geneseed and are often done without the consent of the parent chapter. This means a chapter of entirely new Space Marines just pops into existence. If the leadership of the new chapter is chosen from amongst newly created battle-brothers, how are these chapters not just wiped out due to incompetent leadership?

I would love to hear thoughts on this.

Who over the chapter master ends up being, they are still in charge of either 1000 scouts or 1000 marines who are just about qualified for the Ninth Company devastator squads. They could have Calgary, Culn, and Azrael as officers and they would be less powerful than most chapters, because they have inexperienced marines. If they go out on their own, with Dante and Sicarius in charge, they will still not perform perfectly.

In a normal chapter, there are inexperienced scouts and reserve marines. What they are used for is support of battle companies, e.g. battle company is attacking a citadel in a hive city, and there are reserve marines making diversionary attacks or fighting a rearguard against more enemy forces that are trying to relieve the defenders.

That's the level of capability that new chapters have. They are a thousand guys who can support battle companies. The only thing they can reasonably do is fight with other chapters for several decades. Then, their chapter master doesn't have the opportunity to destroy the chapter through incompetent leadership. The person making the decisions is someone experienced who is running the campaign, like Logan Grimnar, who commanded all the Imperials in the thirteenth black crusade, or Carab Culln, who was Magister Militum for the loyalists in the Badaab war.

If there is a senior chapter master who has deployed the reserve company to a planet to fight with a battle company, and a battle company captain commanding the three or four companies on the planet, then the other captains of those companies have very limited responsibilities. They are sort of platoon leaders, or second lieutenants. They don't have as much power to accidentally destroy their companies.

So the chapter master of a new chapter mainly has to impress another chapter master enough the he lets them crusade with his chapter. It doesn't take more than a very bright junior officer to do that. You can appoint junior officers right away from new marines, because that's what officers usually are. It's a different job than being a battle brother.

I disagree with this. You have roughly 900 space marines in power armour and the last few hundred+ training as scouts. They will have about 5-10 years between implantation and power armour and that will be spent kicking ass in the simulators and in live fire exercises (fighting a penal legion sentenced to death, putting down a small insurrection, spawncamping necrons etc)
They are superhumans trained to exceptional standards before they are allowed hold a bolter.

A newly formed chapter won't have the centuries of experience of an older one but it will be perfectly capable of completing any given mission. Consider the clones on Geonosis, their first engagement and Captain America, right after his transformation hunting down that assassin. 900 men bred for war and armed and armoured to the highest standards. The experience comes later- the killing starts now.

They drop trousers and compare. Whomever's got the biggest wins. Since they may or may not have anything there (Thanks GW), sometimes it falls down to the honor system and naked wrestling takes place with each space marine trying to pin down his brothers. After a few days of hot wrestling, the winner becomes Chapter Master. However, when that fails, it tends to happen a lot, the Company Captains talk about who is a possible candidate for the position and have a vote based on things like: experience, recommendation from previous CM, and performance in the line of combat. This varies from chapter to chapter but that tends to be the overall process.

Just as there is no one way in which new chapters are formed, there won't be one way in which chapter masters are chosen. Most of the suggestions above have merit.