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A general topic on it, to discuss it, it's impacts, and the like.
As a service member, I don't have a ton of first hand experience with it. A couple things happened my last deployment that have made me a touch jumpy in certain situations (I can understand the dislike of fireworks a lot of veterans have now), but I know I certainly don't have PTSD. I have a co-worker who just medically retired because of it, and having been stationed with him in the past, I can definitely see a difference in him today, from back then.
On the flip side, it seems to be a laughing matter among Soldier friends of mine. A good friend of mine who spent years in Ranger regiment, and years as a Kiowa pilot, spends plenty of time mocking it, but I'm not sure if it's a jab at people who play the system to use it as an easy out, or if he's really just callous about it. He's admitted to me that he could instantly get 100% disability due to PTSD with the things he's seen/done, if he wanted to. He is also the type though whose got scars all over his arm from shrapnel, and refused a purple heart.
It's one of those things that I respect among those who have it, but I don't know a ton about it. The way it seems to be treated among the more veteran members of the Army that I know surprises me a bit.
Anyways, that's my input on the topic for now, I know Seb and Jihadin were discussing other aspects of it, so lets open it up to everything.
All I know is that there's a huge spectrum of PTSD and that it gets a bad rap. So, I'm in the camp that our society need to do what's necessary to help identify the symptoms and ensure treatments is available.
My neighbor a few houses down is a vet, and doesn't like fireworks either (that doesn't mean he has PTSD, or that they've explicitedly told me). His wife told my wife that on July 4th before dusk, he quarantines himself in the basement to watch his movies with the volumn up.
The dismissal of it by some is part of the general fear and misunderstanding of psychology in the country. As you said, people say they can use it to get out of work, get money forever and so on. The problem with that is that it undermines the actual issues and damage that gets done. It's a shame.
curran12 wrote: The dismissal of it by some is part of the general fear and misunderstanding of psychology in the country. As you said, people say they can use it to get out of work, get money forever and so on. The problem with that is that it undermines the actual issues and damage that gets done. It's a shame.
Moochers exists in all aspects of general welfare... the challenge is to create a system/mechanism to prevent said moochers AND at the same time ensuring the people who truly needs it has access.
That's not easy... so, the path of least resistance is often employed to have a more 'liberal' system so that the folks who truly needs it, get what they need... while accepting some abuse.
curran12 wrote: The dismissal of it by some is part of the general fear and misunderstanding of psychology in the country. As you said, people say they can use it to get out of work, get money forever and so on. The problem with that is that it undermines the actual issues and damage that gets done. It's a shame.
Moochers exists in all aspects of general welfare... the challenge is to create a system/mechanism to prevent said moochers AND at the same time ensuring the people who truly needs it has access.
That's not easy... so, the path of least resistance is often employed to have a more 'liberal' system so that the folks who truly needs it, get what they need... while accepting some abuse.
With PTSD, I'd say it's almost impossible to say they don't have it, especially if they have seen some gak. It's one of those things that we still know so little about, that just about anyone serving today could claim it, and likely win their case.
I think it has a similar problem as ADD: oversimplified and overdiagnosed. I think there are definitely people who have it and suffer who fly under the radar, but I think some people also abuse it as a victim/money card.
I work in disability adjudication, so I've seen plenty of PTSD claims, mostly from civilians, but a few service related. My review of the literature states that most of the time PTSD is the mental equivalent of compound fracture in the leg, in that it can occasionally affect a person for lift, most people with proper care recover fully, or nearly so. Recovery takes resources, as therapy is far more effective than medication, but recovery is very possible. It's widely understood that there is a pretty significant amount of overstatement of symptoms when it comes to benefit claims, and PTSD is no different.
djones520 wrote: A general topic on it, to discuss it, it's impacts, and the like.
As a service member, I don't have a ton of first hand experience with it. A couple things happened my last deployment that have made me a touch jumpy in certain situations (I can understand the dislike of fireworks a lot of veterans have now), but I know I certainly don't have PTSD. I have a co-worker who just medically retired because of it, and having been stationed with him in the past, I can definitely see a difference in him today, from back then.
Truthfully, you probably have it. PTSD can be very mild and still affect you without you really realizing it. I think a lot of people have a preconceived notion of what PTSD is and how it presents, and that you have to be in pretty bad shape to have it. But for every severe case that is having a hard time functioning there are a lot of people with mild hyper vigilance, or nightmares, or problems with emotional attachments, or mild anxiety, or mild depression, or general stress.
On the flip side, it seems to be a laughing matter among Soldier friends of mine. A good friend of mine who spent years in Ranger regiment, and years as a Kiowa pilot, spends plenty of time mocking it, but I'm not sure if it's a jab at people who play the system to use it as an easy out, or if he's really just callous about it. He's admitted to me that he could instantly get 100% disability due to PTSD with the things he's seen/done, if he wanted to. He is also the type though whose got scars all over his arm from shrapnel, and refused a purple heart.
It's one of those things that I respect among those who have it, but I don't know a ton about it. The way it seems to be treated among the more veteran members of the Army that I know surprises me a bit.
I think that even 70 years later there are still a lot of stigma attached to it and that there are a lot of people who think of others with PTSD, as well as of themselves, the same way that General Patton did.
I'm not speaking from first hand experience as a member of the military here, but I imagine that if my experience with the fire service, EMS, and emergency nursing is even remotely similar then there is still a lot of stigma attached to not being man enough to deal with everything by yourself. "You are a soldier, you were trained for this, this is who we are, if you can't handle it without help then you are a crappy soldier" kind of mentality. I think military leadership is getting better at reducing the stigma, and the VA is trying hard to educate veterans on what PTSD is and isn't (and that having it doesn't reflect on you as a person), but I suspect that at the unit level there is still that stigma.
Anyways, that's my input on the topic for now, I know Seb and Jihadin were discussing other aspects of it, so lets open it up to everything.
I think the service side of things has become kind of a two edged sword for PTSD. Accepting it as a service related disability has done a lot to advance research and acceptance of it, but I also think that is has become both somewhat of a stigma for service members and it also has been somewhat shoehorned into being a condition that you can only have if you have been in the service or a related field. And even with people who have been in the military, they might not think that they have PTSD or think that they do have "something" but it's not PTSD because their symptoms are not as bad as the other guy or that their experiences are not as bad as the other guys.
(Forewarning here, I'm talking about my experiences with veterans and don't mean to belittle any MOS or type of service or make light of anything. I might explain things in a bad way but I don't mean to be disrespectful)
On the military side, one example might be the guy who was a support MOS who was stationed in a remote base that had mortar or RPG attacks. That person might not think that he has the "right" to complain about PTSD when he never left the base and there are guys out there who went on patrol and got hit by an IED and watched their friend die next them. "I didn't experience anything bad enough to get PTSD."
Another military example might be the guy who has nightmares, social anxiety, hyper vigilance, and other milder symptoms. That person might not think that he has the "right" to complain about PTSD when there are guys who cannot leave the house, who cannot function without a service dog, who are constantly contemplating suicide, or who have developed alcohol addictions. "I'm just jumpy. THAT guy has it bad, that's PTSD. I don't have that."
On the civilian side there is the general "I can't complain about PTSD, I'm not a soldier, I haven't experienced anything bad enough to get PTSD" mindset.
So I think that PTSD suffers a bit because people have pigeonholed it into being a military condition, and then people also have preconceived notions of what you have to experience to get PTSD and what it is like having it. Non-military services might not think of it as PTSD, but we have developed routines and protocols for trying to prevent it and helping people deal with it. On the police/FD/EMS side of things we usually do Critical Incident Stress Debriefings for calls and incidents that could cause PTSD, although I haven't really seen anybody refer to PTSD when talking about it.
My own personal experience is that I think it is fairly easy to develop PTSD and that there is nothing wrong with getting help for it. And at risk of running into the already mentioned "I'm not a soldier", "I haven't experienced anything bad enough" and "my symptoms aren't bad enough" road blocks, I'm just going to go ahead and admit that I think that I do have PTSD myself, and I'll share my story because I have found that it helps me to talk about it.
Spoiler:
I've been a nurse for 13 years with many of those years in emergency and critical care, I've volunteered in the fire service for 5 years, and I have worked for the ambulance service. There have been a lot of traumatic deaths and violent incidents that I have been involved in. But the one incident that sticks with me is this:
In 2005 I was still working with the ambulance. I was already a nurse, but Oklahoma does not have pre-hospital certifications in nursing so I was working as an EMT-Basic while running with the ambulance. I drove, I helped the paramedic, and off-the-record I dove into my expanded skillset from nursing. We were wrapping up a call and finishing up at the ER, getting ready to get back in service. Dispatch called us to see if we could take a call because we were the closest unit and I gave them the go ahead and told my paramedic to jump into the truck. They toned us out and gave us the call information: drowning, less than a mile away from us. I remember my partner acknowledging the call and address, and me telling him "feth, it's gonna be a kid, I know it's gonna be a fething kid". Dispatch then came back and told us it was a 5 year old.
We got to the call quick, and we were actually the first unit on scene. But the problem is that we were set up for adults. Everything we need is always on the stretcher so that we can just pull out the stretcher with all our gear already on it, but we were not set up for a kid. So my partner and me jump in the back and rip open cabinets to pull out all the pediatric gear: IV lines, pediatric BVM, pediatric backboard. Even though we were the first on scene, that delayed us just enough for the fire department and PD to arrive 10 seconds later. They ran straight to the back of the house that we were parked in front of. We got our stretcher out and headed towards the house and were in the drive way when the firefighter came running towards us. This is the image that has stuck with me for the past 11 years: The 5 year old girl fell into the pool and nobody saw her fall, when the family pulled her out they laid her on the grass which had been mowed that morning and that's where the firefighter picked her up to carry her towards us. The first time I saw our patient she was a tiny limb girl, dripping wet, with fresh grass clipping sticking to her body. That's what I always remember, that fething grass. At that point our field operations supervisor also arrived on scene because he was in the area.
We threw everything off the stretcher and the firefighter put her on and we started to work her right there. My partner started to intubate her and I jumped back into the ambulance to set up the fluids and drugs for him so that we can just slam the stretcher back into the truck and hit the road as soon as he got the tube. We load up, I head towards the front, and PD grabs me "I'm running you in, follow me". Getting an escort from PD was against policy, but nobody cared at this point. I got behind the wheel and grabbed the radio "484, communications. One times One to Kids." AKA "Unit 484 to dispatch, transporting one patient, priority one, to Children's Hospital". In complete disregard for corporate policy, our FOS got on the radio as well "FOS, 484. PD will give you an escort, I will run behind you.".
And that's how we drove to the ER. PD running hot and shutting down every intersection for us, me running through the intersections breaking every company rule, my supervisor right behind me running hot breaking every rule with me, and PD peeling out of that intersection to shoot by us to shut down the next intersection one mile away. There were at least 3 different ways I could have driven from that part of town to the hospital, and I just picked one of them that seemed best. We made it to the ER, we dropped her off, she still had a pulse. I was cleaning up the ambulance and putting stuff back together with my partner when her family arrived and we pointed them in the right direction to the ER entrance. My partner asked me if I was okay and I told him that I just want to go run calls to get on with my day. We checked on her a couple times when we had a patient to take to Children's Hospital, the last time we were by there was a lot of doctors in her ICU room, and that was the last that we ever saw of her. I have no idea if she recovered or if she died.
I was honestly okay for the first couple of years. The call comes to my mind a few times a year, but it doesn't really bug me. After a few years it became an annual thing: I would get very preoccupied with the call around the anniversary date. I see her tiny, limp, wet, grass covered body in the arms of the firefighter in my mind. I think about the route I took and I wonder "did she die? could I have driven a different route and gotten to the ER a minute sooner? could I have done something different for my partner?" Some years I end up driving down to the original ER, only to drive from there to the house, and then to take the route I took to the Children's ER. My wife knows when the time comes close because I get withdrawn a bit, and my friends know about it because I usually end up talking about it during that time because it helps. 3 years ago my daughter was born during that time and I was able to not think about the call, mainly because my daughter ended up in the NICU which naturally managed to preoccupied me. The next year was the worst for me, and it caught up with a vengeance. I was driving to work, happy and not a care in the world, when it suddenly hit me out of nowhere and I started to see her again in my mind. I called my wife and told her "It's that time of year again, it just hit me". I made it to work and was holding it together for the first few hours, then I came across a story about a different child that died and I fell apart. I told my buddy that I need to get some fresh air and I went outside to sit on the stairs to the hospital. A couple other coworkers saw me there and asked me if I was okay and I lied, very poorly. They got my supervisor and she came and talked to me on the stairs. I'm good friends with her, and she is the person that I ended up breaking down with. For the first time in 8 years since the call I sat on those stairs and cried while she was holding me. After that breakdown I was fine again, but the years of reliving that call around that time, and almost loosing my own daughter the year before, hit me like a brick wall.
That call was August 2005, which is a big part of the reason why I'm talking about it because right now is my annual "be a little bitch" time. I don't know if it's even really on-topic, or if it really contributes to the discussion at all, but it's therapeutic for me, so there it is. Over the past few years I've started to just call it "PTSD" rather than "getting sentimental" or "reliving that gakky call". Even with everything I know about PTSD I still feel conflicted about it because "I work with soldiers every day, they have seen really gak that is worth getting PTSD over, I just had a gakky call". So I know I'm part of the problem there.
But anyway: Part 1 are my thoughts on PTSD, and thanks for letting me vent in Part 2.
On the military side, one example might be the guy who was a support MOS who was stationed in a remote base that had mortar or RPG attacks. That person might not think that he has the "right" to complain about PTSD when he never left the base and there are guys out there who went on patrol and got hit by an IED and watched their friend die next them. "I didn't experience anything bad enough to get PTSD."
That's kinda my experience. We took 75 rounds of IDF while I was there, I was caught out doors a couple of times, both times it took me a few hours to get my cool back (not saying I went hysterical... hard to explain). I had to travel to a small FOB once, to repair a broken sensor. Not a hardened facility on the base. Took IDF while I was there, and that was certainly scary. A couple months ago (back home now) I was working down by the airfield, and a landing C-17's engines revved in just the right way that for half a second it sounded like the incoming siren back on Bagram, and I was instantly on the alert, and on the 4th, that first big firework had me looking around for the impact zone as well.
I'm not affected on a day to day matter in any way shape or form, at least as far as I'm aware. My experiences really aren't any different from ANYONE who has spent some time in Iraq and Afghanistan over the last 15 years.
As far as the crap of civilians can't get it, that is total, well, crap. Folks in the medical profession should probably be examined for it more then we in the military are. There is only so much of that, that you can see, before it really starts to get to you. My friend who just retired, I'm pretty sure that is what did him in. At his retirement ceremony he talked about how a deployment in Iraq, he'd spend his off duty time helping get the casualties off the medevac birds, and you could tell he went to a different place while he was talking about that. We in the profession in arms do not have a lock on the PTSD train, and anyone who claims such is an donkey-cave.
The reason some vets laugh about it is because unfortunately some vets use it as the golden ticket. They get a fat VA payout each month, didn't have a physical injury, and they fake it through the system because mental problems are harder to diagnose than visible physical impairment. Meanwhile there are guys that really need the help. I think the negative backlash stems from the vets that milk it for the easy life when they get out. My recruiter lost his leg and always complains that fake PTSD vets get a bigger payout than him. Create a system and unfortunately people will see an opportunity to take advantage of it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/02 17:55:20
My uncle had it big time (Marines at Chosin). One of the weirder bits of it was some of the things that would set him off.
1. the cold. If he got cold he could lose it.
2. brass instruments. If someone played one (even the radio) he'd be instantly gone, and in a corner. If there was furniture around he would have knocked it over in front of him.
Nowdays Dad would probably have been classed with some as well but he wasn't like that at all. *
*both of them had the dreams etc. from when they were kids in the orphanage-I think that was what impacted Dad more, but of course he was in a different part in Korea.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
I know that some people take it as a joke when I mention it, but there have been a few folks who seem to be having some issues based on their responses in certain threads
If I mention PTSD in a thread, I try to only mention it for two reasons:
One is to point out that the media often uses it as a knee jerk reaction to a current event.
The other is to honestly express concern for a poster who might be suffering. If someone goes past the frequent "you haven't seen what I have seen", and posts things that seem to reveal a much deeper problem, then I will often reply "there is help for this, talk to the hotline, talk to the VA, talk to the DVA, the VFW, just find someone to help you". I just want to take this opportunity to make it clear that if you ever see me post these words, it honestly is not meant as a broad brush of dismissal against the military and it's not a joke either. It is honestly a concern for whoever I am replying to, even if I can't stand them. The 22 a day are real, and Internet arguments aren't enough for me to make a joke about that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/02 18:22:39
Could part of the problem with how PTSD is viewed be the name? George Carlin had a bit where he went through how it evolved over the years to its current name, and ended by saying that if we still called it shell shock, people might get the help they need then.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
I hate the stereotype that it makes anyone overly dangerous to others, and that its something to be avoided and folks treated badly. I feel that if we can respect folk with some issues, we should respect all of them. Too often it's a punchline.
So far as civilian PTSD.. Fifteen years ago, as a teenager, I was home alone and a drugged up man battered his way into my house, through a dead bolted door that I thought was safe. I don't want to go into the details, but he didn't just simply leave once confronted.
Years and two moves later, if someone knocks on the front door with any enthusiasm, it launches me into any one of a series of reactions listed for PTSD. Some days I cannot actually answer the door to collect my own mail because I'm fighting it off.
I've never really told anyone about it other than my doctor, who explained this. There's this feeling that I'd be seen as disrespecting vets and service members by even mentioning such a thing.
Buttery Commissar wrote: I hate the stereotype that it makes anyone overly dangerous to others, and that its something to be avoided and folks treated badly. I feel that if we can respect folk with some issues, we should respect all of them. Too often it's a punchline.
So far as civilian PTSD.. Fifteen years ago, as a teenager, I was home alone and a drugged up man battered his way into my house, through a dead bolted door that I thought was safe. I don't want to go into the details, but he didn't just simply leave once confronted.
Years and two moves later, if someone knocks on the front door with any enthusiasm, it launches me into any one of a series of reactions listed for PTSD. Some days I cannot actually answer the door to collect my own mail because I'm fighting it off.
I've never really told anyone about it other than my doctor, who explained this. There's this feeling that I'd be seen as disrespecting vets and service members by even mentioning such a thing.
Well this vet says don't be afraid of that. feth anyone who'd denigrate you for it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tannhauser42 wrote: Could part of the problem with how PTSD is viewed be the name? George Carlin had a bit where he went through how it evolved over the years to its current name, and ended by saying that if we still called it shell shock, people might get the help they need then.
Maybe call it a result of the PC culture, but I think the name is more representative now then just referring to it as shell shock.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/02 18:16:10
Monkey Tamer wrote: The reason some vets laugh about it is because unfortunately some vets use it as the golden ticket. They get a fat VA payout each month, didn't have a physical injury, and they fake it through the system because mental problems are harder to diagnose than visible physical impairment. Meanwhile there are guys that really need the help. I think the negative backlash stems from the vets that milk it for the easy life when they get out. My recruiter lost his leg and always complains that fake PTSD vets get a bigger payout than him. Create a system and unfortunately people will see an opportunity to take advantage of it.
PTSD is a spectrum, much like Autism. Its goes from very mild to non functioning. The VA system is not set up to handle a claim of PTSD, provide the proper treatment, and then stop the claim. They just pay out or not. Honestly anyone who went over there, unless you were the most Rear Echelon Mo.....Fu.....(REMF) probably has some form of reintegration anxiety caused by the deployement when they return, then they learn to deal, get help, or allow it to go unchecked, which leads to future issues. I have been in the Artillery community a long time, and in 04 on my first deployment I was not even remotely ready for the things we would be expected to do. I always figured we just fire and forget, but when you shoot, move through the previous target area, set up, to keep up with a fast moving maneuver force then you see some things that you were not mentally prepared for. You understand what an HE round does to a human body. Now I personally did not get any form of help because back then it was considered weak, and it tore my family apart, destroyed my relationship, and started to affect my work. When my wife begged me years later to admit I had an issue, and get help, I finally did and I learned to cope. I wouldn't say it all got better, but I can deal now, and if you just met me, you wouldn't be any the wiser. Problem is that when a Soldier gets out, they make the claim as they have been diagnosed, the VA fails to render any sort of effective treatment and then it never gets better. So although there are cases of Soldiers who fake the funk, I would say its a much smaller percentage than what you may think. Just because someone in public doesn't act out, doesn't mean they don't go home and sit in a corner because dealing with people all day has become too overwhelming.
Civilians do not understand, and unfortunately the VA is pretty much mostly civilian run. We were not prepared, and are still not prepared to deal with the aftermath of the men and women who went and answered the call when asked to. When I get out, I will have a PTSD related percentage.
I would like to also talk about how many are diagnosed with PTSD when it is simply reintegration issues. Sebastian Junger was spot on when he talked about it. I actually started a thread on it a while back. The problem is the perception that we are no longer good functioning members of society, and are like rabid dogs who could snap at any minute. It leaves a bad taste in many peoples mouths, and creates an environment where veterans who separate from military service have a hard time integrating into society. The brother hood is the hardest thing to let go of. In 6 months when I become a civilian I already know its going to be an uphill battle to discover myself again, but hopefully someone out there doesn't look at me and say, nope, 3 deployments and combat arms, can't use you.
The anxiety is often created after the fact not necessarily because of a deployment or horrific experience.
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Monkey Tamer wrote: The reason some vets laugh about it is because unfortunately some vets use it as the golden ticket. They get a fat VA payout each month, didn't have a physical injury, and they fake it through the system because mental problems are harder to diagnose than visible physical impairment. Meanwhile there are guys that really need the help. I think the negative backlash stems from the vets that milk it for the easy life when they get out. My recruiter lost his leg and always complains that fake PTSD vets get a bigger payout than him. Create a system and unfortunately people will see an opportunity to take advantage of it.
PTSD is a spectrum, much like Autism. Its goes from very mild to non functioning. The VA system is not set up to handle a claim of PTSD, provide the proper treatment, and then stop the claim. They just pay out or not. Honestly anyone who went over there, unless you were the most Rear Echelon Mo.....Fu.....(REMF) probably has some form of reintegration anxiety caused by the deployement when they return, then they learn to deal, get help, or allow it to go unchecked, which leads to future issues. I have been in the Artillery community a long time, and in 04 on my first deployment I was not even remotely ready for the things we would be expected to do. I always figured we just fire and forget, but when you shoot, move through the previous target area, set up, to keep up with a fast moving maneuver force then you see some things that you were not mentally prepared for. You understand what an HE round does to a human body. Now I personally did not get any form of help because back then it was considered weak, and it tore my family apart, destroyed my relationship, and started to affect my work. When my wife begged me years later to admit I had an issue, and get help, I finally did and I learned to cope. I wouldn't say it all got better, but I can deal now, and if you just met me, you wouldn't be any the wiser. Problem is that when a Soldier gets out, they make the claim as they have been diagnosed, the VA fails to render any sort of effective treatment and then it never gets better. So although there are cases of Soldiers who fake the funk, I would say its a much smaller percentage than what you may think. Just because someone in public doesn't act out, doesn't mean they don't go home and sit in a corner because dealing with people all day has become too overwhelming.
Civilians do not understand, and unfortunately the VA is pretty much mostly civilian run. We were not prepared, and are still not prepared to deal with the aftermath of the men and women who went and answered the call when asked to. When I get out, I will have a PTSD related percentage.
I would like to also talk about how many are diagnosed with PTSD when it is simply reintegration issues. Sebastian Junger was spot on when he talked about it. I actually started a thread on it a while back. The problem is the perception that we are no longer good functioning members of society, and are like rabid dogs who could snap at any minute. It leaves a bad taste in many peoples mouths, and creates an environment where veterans who separate from military service have a hard time integrating into society. The brother hood is the hardest thing to let go of. In 6 months when I become a civilian I already know its going to be an uphill battle to discover myself again, but hopefully someone out there doesn't look at me and say, nope, 3 deployments and combat arms, can't use you.
The anxiety is often created after the fact not necessarily because of a deployment or horrific experience.
The TAPS/SEPS program was utterly useless. The manager at my first job had to tell me to stop "yelling" at customers. It took a few years to fully reintegrate. It's tough going from a respected individual in your field to starting over again. Mix in medical issues and the situation is even worse. Veterans all joke about the denial of any compensation for back pain. I probably wouldn't have gone to school if my back didn't hurt so bad. Then there's the hidden mystery of your education benefits, often locked behind an administrator who is always out to lunch. With the PTSD stigma it's no wonder veterans have a higher unemployment rate. Some of the kids I went to school with were convinced I was damaged goods, and all I did was wrench on jets.
I hear a lot that dogs and animals help with PTSD, even those folk who think they can't talk to people. Some are trained animals but many just help by instinct.
Some doctors actually recommend you go and adopt a dog!
From my (limited) experience it's true. A furry bullet head bumping your hand repeatedly and resting on your knee... It's like someone physically putting your feet back on the ground. Reaches through all the fog and finds you.
A person holding your hand doesn't have the same effect, I don't know why.
Plus for folks who are stressed by going through doors without seeing the other side, the dog doesn't care. The dog will lead.
Can't walk in front of other people in a column? Your dog can.
Who knows why it's so effective.
Buttery Commissar wrote: I hear a lot that dogs and animals help with PTSD, even those folk who think they can't talk to people. Some are trained animals but many just help by instinct.
Some doctors actually recommend you go and adopt a dog!
From my (limited) experience it's true. A furry bullet head bumping your hand repeatedly and resting on your knee... It's like someone physically putting your feet back on the ground. Reaches through all the fog and finds you.
A person holding your hand doesn't have the same effect, I don't know why.
Plus for folks who are stressed by going through doors without seeing the other side, the dog doesn't care. The dog will lead.
Can't walk in front of other people in a column? Your dog can.
Who knows why it's so effective.
Dogs are loyal companions and can tell things are wrong before humans, they have very good senses.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Buttery Commissar wrote: I hate the stereotype that it makes anyone overly dangerous to others, and that its something to be avoided and folks treated badly. I feel that if we can respect folk with some issues, we should respect all of them. Too often it's a punchline.
So far as civilian PTSD.. Fifteen years ago, as a teenager, I was home alone and a drugged up man battered his way into my house, through a dead bolted door that I thought was safe. I don't want to go into the details, but he didn't just simply leave once confronted.
Years and two moves later, if someone knocks on the front door with any enthusiasm, it launches me into any one of a series of reactions listed for PTSD. Some days I cannot actually answer the door to collect my own mail because I'm fighting it off.
I've never really told anyone about it other than my doctor, who explained this. There's this feeling that I'd be seen as disrespecting vets and service members by even mentioning such a thing.
Well this vet says don't be afraid of that. feth anyone who'd denigrate you for it.
What this guy said.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Buttery Commissar wrote: I hear a lot that dogs and animals help with PTSD, even those folk who think they can't talk to people. Some are trained animals but many just help by instinct.
Some doctors actually recommend you go and adopt a dog!
From my (limited) experience it's true. A furry bullet head bumping your hand repeatedly and resting on your knee... It's like someone physically putting your feet back on the ground. Reaches through all the fog and finds you.
A person holding your hand doesn't have the same effect, I don't know why.
Plus for folks who are stressed by going through doors without seeing the other side, the dog doesn't care. The dog will lead.
Can't walk in front of other people in a column? Your dog can.
Who knows why it's so effective.
Although I have become a foster fail, the German Shepard I have ended up with has become my companion. Problem is he hates other people as much, if not more than I do. We get along great.
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I've never really told anyone about it other than my doctor, who explained this. There's this feeling that I'd be seen as disrespecting vets and service members by even mentioning such a thing.
Well this vet says don't be afraid of that. feth anyone who'd denigrate you for it.
What this guy said.
I think Buttery's thoughts and experiences are close to my own. I've never had a vet or anybody tell me that my experiences weren't bad enough or that it doesn't count because I'm a civilian. It's the voice inside my own head that had the tendency to remind me to "shut up, at least you weren't in a war".
Heck, I'm a trained professional helping people with PTSD on a daily basis and I've had a lot of training in it, and it still took me almost 10 years to accept that this is what I have.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/02 18:38:01
Monkey Tamer wrote: The reason some vets laugh about it is because unfortunately some vets use it as the golden ticket. They get a fat VA payout each month, didn't have a physical injury, and they fake it through the system because mental problems are harder to diagnose than visible physical impairment. Meanwhile there are guys that really need the help. I think the negative backlash stems from the vets that milk it for the easy life when they get out. My recruiter lost his leg and always complains that fake PTSD vets get a bigger payout than him. Create a system and unfortunately people will see an opportunity to take advantage of it.
I actually know of (have seen) a document being passed around to some troops ETSing on how to milk the disability assessment. It gave guidance on PTSD, back pain, and sleep issues (all hard to disprove) including key words to use which were calculated to increase the % disability rating. The folks passing it out were of the opinion "You're entitled to it, get it all even if you don't really have the symptoms. The doc won't be able to tell". On a specific post they even gave guidance on which doc to be seen by and which to avoid.
I was appalled.
And then there were guys like me who downplayed everything for various reasons. In my personal case it was because I was worried a high disability rating could my effect ability to get some of the contract work I wanted. Other just didn't see it as a 'big deal' and didn't want a stigma. I helped a good buddy document some injuries I know he had and filled out affidavits for him a few years after he retired and realized the long term effects were worse than he thought they would be and the extra disability and VA recognition of those injuries would be very beneficial.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
Monkey Tamer wrote: The reason some vets laugh about it is because unfortunately some vets use it as the golden ticket. They get a fat VA payout each month, didn't have a physical injury, and they fake it through the system because mental problems are harder to diagnose than visible physical impairment. Meanwhile there are guys that really need the help. I think the negative backlash stems from the vets that milk it for the easy life when they get out. My recruiter lost his leg and always complains that fake PTSD vets get a bigger payout than him. Create a system and unfortunately people will see an opportunity to take advantage of it.
I actually know of (have seen) a document being passed around to some troops ETSing on how to milk the disability assessment. It gave guidance on PTSD, back pain, and sleep issues (all hard to disprove) including key words to use which were calculated to increase the % disability rating. The folks passing it out were of the opinion "You're entitled to it, get it all even if you don't really have the symptoms. The doc won't be able to tell". On a specific post they even gave guidance on which doc to be seen by and which to avoid.
I was appalled.
And then there were guys like me who downplayed everything for various reasons. In my personal case it was because I was worried a high disability rating could my effect ability to get some of the contract work I wanted. Other just didn't see it as a 'big deal' and didn't want a stigma. I helped a good buddy document some injuries I know he had and filled out affidavits for him a few years after he retired and realized the long term effects were worse than he thought they would be and the extra disability and VA recognition of those injuries would be very beneficial.
This. Never down play. Problem is the problems don't get better, because our health care is gak. I am claiming everything, and I'll get what I get percentage wise. Most of it doesn't all add up anyway. you actually don't start making extra money until you get over 50% anyway. If you get over 50% then you got some issues anyway.
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I've never really told anyone about it other than my doctor, who explained this. There's this feeling that I'd be seen as disrespecting vets and service members by even mentioning such a thing.
Well this vet says don't be afraid of that. feth anyone who'd denigrate you for it.
What this guy said.
I think Buttery's thoughts and experiences are close to my own. I've never had a vet or anybody tell me that my experiences weren't bad enough or that it doesn't count because I'm a civilian. It's the voice inside my own head that had the tendency to remind me to "shut up, at least you weren't in a war".
Heck, I'm a trained professional helping people with PTSD on a daily basis and I've had a lot of training in it, and it still took me almost 10 years to accept that this is what I have.
Pretty much. I have no problem standing up for others who are suffering from it, and for them to be taken seriously. But being scared of the mailman and unable to do stupid every day things (it wasn't just the door incident, I just can't articulate 12 years of varying abuse), I feel I have no right to use that term. I feel that needs to be understood to help people with what is (in my head) a much more serious problem, and deserving of support.
Yet I have a friend I would defend to the end, who suffers PTSD from nearly having her children removed from her (false charges), and the severe stresses involved.
You're usually your own worst critic.
Some years ago a friend said to me, "You don't ignore your car's flat tyre because someone is starving in Africa. You have to treat tbings as they come."
Monkey Tamer wrote: The reason some vets laugh about it is because unfortunately some vets use it as the golden ticket. They get a fat VA payout each month, didn't have a physical injury, and they fake it through the system because mental problems are harder to diagnose than visible physical impairment. Meanwhile there are guys that really need the help. I think the negative backlash stems from the vets that milk it for the easy life when they get out. My recruiter lost his leg and always complains that fake PTSD vets get a bigger payout than him. Create a system and unfortunately people will see an opportunity to take advantage of it.
I actually know of (have seen) a document being passed around to some troops ETSing on how to milk the disability assessment. It gave guidance on PTSD, back pain, and sleep issues (all hard to disprove) including key words to use which were calculated to increase the % disability rating. The folks passing it out were of the opinion "You're entitled to it, get it all even if you don't really have the symptoms. The doc won't be able to tell". On a specific post they even gave guidance on which doc to be seen by and which to avoid.
I was appalled.
And then there were guys like me who downplayed everything for various reasons. In my personal case it was because I was worried a high disability rating could my effect ability to get some of the contract work I wanted. Other just didn't see it as a 'big deal' and didn't want a stigma. I helped a good buddy document some injuries I know he had and filled out affidavits for him a few years after he retired and realized the long term effects were worse than he thought they would be and the extra disability and VA recognition of those injuries would be very beneficial.
This. Never down play. Problem is the problems don't get better, because our health care is gak. I am claiming everything, and I'll get what I get percentage wise. Most of it doesn't all add up anyway. you actually don't start making extra money until you get over 50% anyway. If you get over 50% then you got some issues anyway.
I intend on claiming my scoliosis, foot issues, tinnitus, and who knows what else will crop up in the next 5 years of being tied in with the Army. Claiming non-existant gak though... no, you are not entitled that. Thankfully I have not seen that stuff around my work center, and I hope I never do.
Buttery Commissar wrote: I hear a lot that dogs and animals help with PTSD, even those folk who think they can't talk to people. Some are trained animals but many just help by instinct.
Some doctors actually recommend you go and adopt a dog!
From my (limited) experience it's true. A furry bullet head bumping your hand repeatedly and resting on your knee... It's like someone physically putting your feet back on the ground. Reaches through all the fog and finds you.
A person holding your hand doesn't have the same effect, I don't know why.
Plus for folks who are stressed by going through doors without seeing the other side, the dog doesn't care. The dog will lead.
Can't walk in front of other people in a column? Your dog can.
Who knows why it's so effective.
Although I have become a foster fail, the German Shepard I have ended up with has become my companion. Problem is he hates other people as much, if not more than I do. We get along great.
Clearly your German Shepherd is a wiener dog trapped in a bigger dog's body.
Dogs are great for this. The only time I thought it might be an issue was when a guy brought one in to see The Secret Life of Pets at Moviehouse Grill. The doggie was surrounded by LOTS of food, and screaming/dancing children. I could seeing that freaking out a doggie, or just the average adult. But then again, maybe the dog wanted to see the movie and he was just transport...
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Monkey Tamer wrote: The reason some vets laugh about it is because unfortunately some vets use it as the golden ticket. They get a fat VA payout each month, didn't have a physical injury, and they fake it through the system because mental problems are harder to diagnose than visible physical impairment. Meanwhile there are guys that really need the help. I think the negative backlash stems from the vets that milk it for the easy life when they get out. My recruiter lost his leg and always complains that fake PTSD vets get a bigger payout than him. Create a system and unfortunately people will see an opportunity to take advantage of it.
I actually know of (have seen) a document being passed around to some troops ETSing on how to milk the disability assessment. It gave guidance on PTSD, back pain, and sleep issues (all hard to disprove) including key words to use which were calculated to increase the % disability rating. The folks passing it out were of the opinion "You're entitled to it, get it all even if you don't really have the symptoms. The doc won't be able to tell". On a specific post they even gave guidance on which doc to be seen by and which to avoid.
I was appalled.
And then there were guys like me who downplayed everything for various reasons. In my personal case it was because I was worried a high disability rating could my effect ability to get some of the contract work I wanted. Other just didn't see it as a 'big deal' and didn't want a stigma. I helped a good buddy document some injuries I know he had and filled out affidavits for him a few years after he retired and realized the long term effects were worse than he thought they would be and the extra disability and VA recognition of those injuries would be very beneficial.
This. Never down play. Problem is the problems don't get better, because our health care is gak. I am claiming everything, and I'll get what I get percentage wise. Most of it doesn't all add up anyway. you actually don't start making extra money until you get over 50% anyway. If you get over 50% then you got some issues anyway.
I intend on claiming my scoliosis, foot issues, tinnitus, and who knows what else will crop up in the next 5 years of being tied in with the Army. Claiming non-existant gak though... no, you are not entitled that. Thankfully I have not seen that stuff around my work center, and I hope I never do.
Yes, that's what Im talking about. But anyone who has been properly soldiering for numerous years is going to have claims. By the time you hit 20, you will have multiple claims. Otherwise you were probably shamming out.
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Tannhauser42 wrote: Could part of the problem with how PTSD is viewed be the name? George Carlin had a bit where he went through how it evolved over the years to its current name, and ended by saying that if we still called it shell shock, people might get the help they need then.
I know the Carlin bit youre talking of, love it... but I think it has a specific application.
The problem, as I see it, is that we as a society have lumped ALL manner of things into one term, PTSD. If a man or woman is sexually assaulted, they may have PTSD. If a soldier does their job in combat (particularly combat arms), they may end up having PTSD. If a deranged journalist goes to a firing range, they may get "PTSD"..... and while we seem to lump all of these people into one singular group, we also seem to think that this group needs one cohesive treatment to make the problem better. I absolutely do not, for one minute believe that the treatment for both of my real examples need the same treatment. Sure, both people may receive counselling services, but while I'm no shrink, I would think that the ways of coping and counselling an individual through those things would be very different.
I don't think that we should revert to using Shell Shock as a means of making service members "special" in anyway, but I do think that Carlin is right about people getting treatment for Shellshock over PTSD. I know from having left the military, that when I left there was a huge stigma associated with the term PTSD. I have to wonder if some of that stigma would be lessened by a reverted term? I don't know whether the military stigma comes from the hyper-macho society, in which the term "PTSD" is associated almost exclusively with "frail" women who have been raped, or otherwise abused... but I know of a few guys who haven't sought out treatment (IMHO) because of it.
Yes, that's what Im talking about. But anyone who has been properly soldiering for numerous years is going to have claims. By the time you hit 20, you will have multiple claims. Otherwise you were probably shamming out.
My file after 10 years was almost as thick as my wife's when I got out... I went to sick call a whole 3 times throughout. The rest of my documented medical stuff came from pre-, post- deployment assessments and re-assessments.
My current problem, is that some of the issues I had, have gotten worse, but the reason they are worse means that there really isn't much the VA can do, and if I wanted to fight that battle, I'm worried of actually getting less disability (They listed all of my shoulder and knee problems, associated from arthritis, separate from my arthritis claim)... The problem is, the way I, and the legal team at Campbell read the regulation on arthritis is not the way it is followed by the VA, at all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/02 23:16:44
There was a recent story here in Australia about police who had claimed PTSD. The insurer responsible for the payout denied the claim in many cases and forced the matter in to court. They did this even in instances where leave/retirement was mandated by the police force. They followed claimants around filming then, and took material from their facebook pages (even bypassing security settings to reach it).
So... yeah. I understand there will be a fair few claimants who are manipulating the system. But I think I'd rather accept some cases like that than treat genuine sufferers like how police claimants here have been treated.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
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