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So Chicago has been making headlines this year...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/04/01/murders-shootings-soar-chicago-through-first-three-months-2016/82507210/

CHICAGO — Murders in the nation's third-largest city are up about 72%, while shootings have surged more than 88% in the first three months of 2016 compared with the same period last year, according to data released Friday by the Chicago Police Department.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/chicago-records-deadliest-july-in-decade-1470085438

CHICAGO—Last month was the deadliest July in Chicago in a decade, with 65 homicides recorded and more than 360 shooting incidents with 441 victims, according to police statistics released Monday.

What the hell is going on there?

OH Chicago has always been a cespool, I am not sure what else there is to talk about. This is only fuel for those who want to blame guns for gang and criminal violence.

They will need to implement the same kind of Broken Winds policing that New York did to get cleaned up. Stop and Frisk for everyone!

 Easy E wrote:
They will need to implement the same kind of Broken Winds policing that New York did to get cleaned up. Stop and Frisk for everyone!

That'll never happen. One of those stories talk about how the ACLU tied their hands even harder on things like traffic stops.

 Easy E wrote:
They will need to implement the same kind of Broken Winds policing that New York did to get cleaned up. Stop and Frisk for everyone!

Broken wind policing? Nasty.

Cheap easy to get guns from Indiana are a hell of a thing

 Ustrello wrote:
Cheap easy to get guns from Indiana are a hell of a thing

Prohibited possessor buying in IN is still... ya know... illegal.

 whembly wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
Cheap easy to get guns from Indiana are a hell of a thing

Prohibited possessor buying in IN is still... ya know... illegal.

Except it's easier to get guns in Indiana because of laxer laws

 Ustrello wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
Cheap easy to get guns from Indiana are a hell of a thing

Prohibited possessor buying in IN is still... ya know... illegal.

Except it's easier to get guns in Indiana because of laxer laws

What it shows it is that criminals aren't following their state's laws.

 whembly wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
Cheap easy to get guns from Indiana are a hell of a thing

Prohibited possessor buying in IN is still... ya know... illegal.

Except it's easier to get guns in Indiana because of laxer laws

What it shows it is that criminals aren't following their state's laws.

Well, duh. They're criminals.

 whembly wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
Cheap easy to get guns from Indiana are a hell of a thing

Prohibited possessor buying in IN is still... ya know... illegal.

Except it's easier to get guns in Indiana because of laxer laws

What it shows it is that criminals aren't following their state's laws.

Never saw that argument coming

Enforcement will only work if it is done at a federal level, states that drag their feet or plain refuse to work on it only help these killings

 Ustrello wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
Cheap easy to get guns from Indiana are a hell of a thing

Prohibited possessor buying in IN is still... ya know... illegal.

Except it's easier to get guns in Indiana because of laxer laws

What it shows it is that criminals aren't following their state's laws.

Never saw that argument coming

Enforcement will only work if it is done at a federal level, states that drag their feet or plain refuse to work on it only help these killings

Thank you. States and Feds not working in tandem cause a lot of hiccups and leave loopholes open.

Madigan will blame it on the recent concealed carry legislation.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
Cheap easy to get guns from Indiana are a hell of a thing

Prohibited possessor buying in IN is still... ya know... illegal.

Except it's easier to get guns in Indiana because of laxer laws

What it shows it is that criminals aren't following their state's laws.

Never saw that argument coming

Enforcement will only work if it is done at a federal level, states that drag their feet or plain refuse to work on it only help these killings

Thank you. States and Feds not working in tandem cause a lot of hiccups and leave loopholes open.

There are no loopholes.

My point was that criminals intend to *do* criminal acts will illegally acquire their weapons. That's the fact of life.

Let's not turn this into the usual Gun Debate thread, and instead, as the OP poster is trying to encourage is focus on how it's the people and motive that are to blame, not guns.

Let's see if we can continue to source the motives for these people resorting to violence...

I don't know what it is about Chicago that makes it so crazy. I just know I try to avoid the city as much as I can, which is actually pretty easy for me. Hurray suburbia!

 whembly wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
Cheap easy to get guns from Indiana are a hell of a thing

Prohibited possessor buying in IN is still... ya know... illegal.

Except it's easier to get guns in Indiana because of laxer laws

What it shows it is that criminals aren't following their state's laws.

Never saw that argument coming

Enforcement will only work if it is done at a federal level, states that drag their feet or plain refuse to work on it only help these killings

Thank you. States and Feds not working in tandem cause a lot of hiccups and leave loopholes open.

There are no loopholes.

My point was that criminals intend to *do* criminal acts will illegally acquire their weapons. That's the fact of life.

Let's not turn this into the usual Gun Debate thread, and instead, as the OP poster is trying to encourage is focus on how it's the people and motive that are to blame, not guns.

Let's see if we can continue to source the motives for these people resorting to violence...

...Fine, sure. OT, poor communities, bad interactions between the police and the community, popularization of gang culture from people like Jay-Z and Kanye West, poor education rates. Pretty obvious that's a potluck of violence and hate.

Chicago has been bad since it started. Mob violence aggravated the situation. However if you look at the statistics, most of the crime is limited a specific area, which is Somaliaesque in its violence. Add in that the police have had a long history of both bad behavior, and neglect, and its a problem.

 Ustrello wrote:
Cheap easy to get guns from Indiana are a hell of a thing

You know, I was just about to make a sarcastic comment on this. But seeing as you made it an actual point;
http://www.wibc.com/blogs/gun-guy/obama-dead-wrong-blame-indiana-chicago-gun-crime

1. To buy a gun from a licensed dealer in Indiana - or in any other state in the United States - a person must pass a federal background check conducted by the the FBI using the National Instant Criminal Background Check System. If a person is a "prohibited possessor" as defined by federal law, he will be unable to legally buy a gun in Indiana, Illinois or anywhere else. And federal law prevents an Illinois resident from buying a handgun in Indiana - only Indiana residents can buy a handgun directly from an Indiana dealer. As a result, blaming Indiana's so-called "lax gun laws" completely ignores the fact that federal law generally controls who can buy a gun and who cannot, and federal law enforcement agents conduct background checks on all gun purchases.

2. Obama's numbers are way off. In a study just conducted last fall and reported in USA today, it was found that while approximately 60% of guns recovered at Chicago crime scenes did come from out-of-state (which you would expect, since Chicago completely banned handguns until 2010), only 19% of those guns were originally purchased in Indiana (not "30 to 40%").

3. Chicago criminals don't get their guns from gun stores - in Indiana or anywhere else. We know this because the University of Chicago Crime Lab went to the Cook County Jail in 2015 and asked 100 inmates, who were in jail for gun crimes, where they got their guns. A whopping 70% said they got their guns on the street -- from fellow gang members, "social connections" and family members. Only TWO said they went to a licensed dealer to buy a gun (where laws - lax or otherwise - would dictate whether they could successfully buy a gun). And that number is perfectly consistent with a previous study of Chicago gang members that found that only 3% obtained their guns from a licensed gun dealer.

So I'm sorry, Mr. President. Once again, when it comes to guns, you've got your facts wrong. Chicago has a crime problem because Chicago has too many criminals - not because Indiana provides those criminals with guns.

Don't blame my state for the mess your state finds itself in. If the issue was the alleged easy availability of guns in Indiana then it would be Indiana with the problem.


http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/01/29/us/where-50000-guns-in-chicago-came-from.html?_r=0
Guns that were traced to Illinois; 22, 051
Guns that were traced to Indiana; 7,747
This does not indicate whether the firearms were stolen, or illegally bought in Indiana and transported into Illinois.

 Frazzled wrote:
Chicago has been bad since it started. Mob violence aggravated the situation. However if you look at the statistics, most of the crime is limited a specific area, which is Somaliaesque in its violence. Add in that the police have had a long history of both bad behavior, and neglect, and its a problem.

This, for sure. Illinois is a place well known for its corruption and the Police are one of the most corrupt. With the recent revelation of Chicago PD black sites and murders, it is still the wild west up there in many ways.

Chicago PD are more of the nightstick to head type enforcers, less of the Community Outreach types.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
Cheap easy to get guns from Indiana are a hell of a thing

You know, I was just about to make a sarcastic comment on this. But seeing as you made it an actual point;
http://www.wibc.com/blogs/gun-guy/obama-dead-wrong-blame-indiana-chicago-gun-crime

1. To buy a gun from a licensed dealer in Indiana - or in any other state in the United States - a person must pass a federal background check conducted by the the FBI using the National Instant Criminal Background Check System. If a person is a "prohibited possessor" as defined by federal law, he will be unable to legally buy a gun in Indiana, Illinois or anywhere else. And federal law prevents an Illinois resident from buying a handgun in Indiana - only Indiana residents can buy a handgun directly from an Indiana dealer. As a result, blaming Indiana's so-called "lax gun laws" completely ignores the fact that federal law generally controls who can buy a gun and who cannot, and federal law enforcement agents conduct background checks on all gun purchases.

2. Obama's numbers are way off. In a study just conducted last fall and reported in USA today, it was found that while approximately 60% of guns recovered at Chicago crime scenes did come from out-of-state (which you would expect, since Chicago completely banned handguns until 2010), only 19% of those guns were originally purchased in Indiana (not "30 to 40%").

3. Chicago criminals don't get their guns from gun stores - in Indiana or anywhere else. We know this because the University of Chicago Crime Lab went to the Cook County Jail in 2015 and asked 100 inmates, who were in jail for gun crimes, where they got their guns. A whopping 70% said they got their guns on the street -- from fellow gang members, "social connections" and family members. Only TWO said they went to a licensed dealer to buy a gun (where laws - lax or otherwise - would dictate whether they could successfully buy a gun). And that number is perfectly consistent with a previous study of Chicago gang members that found that only 3% obtained their guns from a licensed gun dealer.

So I'm sorry, Mr. President. Once again, when it comes to guns, you've got your facts wrong. Chicago has a crime problem because Chicago has too many criminals - not because Indiana provides those criminals with guns.

Don't blame my state for the mess your state finds itself in. If the issue was the alleged easy availability of guns in Indiana then it would be Indiana with the problem.


http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/01/29/us/where-50000-guns-in-chicago-came-from.html?_r=0
Guns that were traced to Illinois; 22, 051
Guns that were traced to Indiana; 7,747
This does not indicate whether the firearms were stolen, or illegally bought in Indiana and transported into Illinois.

Thank you, I was going to post something very similar to this but you beat me to the punch so to speak

Chicago has possibly the strictest gun laws in the United States, and it has the WORST gun violence. Go figure.

http://archive.boston.com/news/2015/12/30/homicides-boston-dropped-significantly-report-finds/jFfPbH0SarAm9jX4rw527N/story.html

Boston has some pretty restrictive gun laws, and that report shows that 90% of all murders were carried out using an unlawful weapon. In other words criminals found a way, illegally to gain access to a firearm.

Gun Control works about as well as Speed Limit Signs. Everyone knows what the law is, but those who want to just do it anyway and hope they don't get caught.

SemperMortis wrote:
Chicago has possibly the strictest gun laws in the United States, and it has the WORST gun violence. Go figure.

No, it doesn't. When you break down cities for violence, Chicago doesn't even make the top 10 for violent crimes or murders per capita. If Detroit (pop 700k) had the same number of people in it as Chicago (2.7m) , and all else remained equal, Detroit would have 1,200 gun murders a year - a rate triple that of Chicago.

The spike of violence Chicago is seeing is in no way a Chicago specific phenomenon. Murders are up in many major cities. Murders in Memphis have nearly doubled from this time last year, along with Jacksonville, Dallas, Las Vegas, and so on, but I guess those murders aren't politically useful.

You'll never see someone start a thread about the violence in Flint, or New Orleans, or St. Louis, or Stockton, or Memphis, or Indianapolis, but those cities all have more violence per capita than Chicago.

Chicago is the key logistics pivot for US, all roads lead to Chicago. It's second only to New York for having F500 companies headquartered there.

But the roads that carry pork bellies and frozen orange juice also carry drugs. As such Chicago has a lot of gang activity, and that gang activity has a pretty lucrative incentive to actively enforce its business interests.

Add on top that some areas of Chicago that have been left with terrible rates of poverty and education, and you've pretty much got your murder problem explained.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:
Boston has some pretty restrictive gun laws, and that report shows that 90% of all murders were carried out using an unlawful weapon. In other words criminals found a way, illegally to gain access to a firearm.

Comparing gun laws put in place in individual cities that maintain open borders, with some kind of hypothetical national law is very silly. An individual city does not have customs, Chicago or Boston or anywhere else doesn't stop every truck and train coming in to the city to review the contents. It doesn't assign special policing teams to tracking any smuggling rings in to the city. In effect it creates a mild difficulty for anyone wanting an illegal firearm, nothing more than that. A federal system will have all those things.

That doesn't mean a federal system will work 100%, but to claim that it would only be as effective as a law put in place by a single city is ridiculous.

The key problem is the gangs and their ability to control and lock down entire blocks worth of area. It's not as bad as it was back in the 70's-90'swhen they had the Cabrini and Robert Taylor projects which were practically like fortresses and kept the cops out. Many of the neighborhoods that are over run by gangs are usually made up of one type of ethnicity so outsiders (cops) stick out like a sore thumb and the gangs have a lot of forewarning when the cops are on the approach. Some neighborhoods are all latino/mexican others are all black, so white police, latino, or black all stand out depending on the areas they are attempting to enter. The same issue occurs for anybody going into Polish or Russian neighborhoods, even if the police are white they are still obvious as outsiders. A huge number of Chicago PD members are from outside the local area, most live within Chicago city limits but most live outside the district they actually patrol. That makes connecting with the community and keeping proper tabs on the neighborhoods much harder than if they are born and raised local.

Then add in slower response times and lowered priorities when dealing with lower income or ethnic neighborhoods. Upscale neighborhoods and the business district get faster response and a much more prominent presence, Southside and west of the White Sox field? not so much.

There's also large amounts of industrial buildings trucking and train yards scattered all throughout the city, which tend to drag down neighboring properties, some are abandoned or in really bad disrepair and are empty at night which can render whole areas basically devoid of eyes and ears at night which encourages/aides criminal behavior as there's not as many potential witnesses around. The city is also within a reasonable drive from both Milwaukee and Detroit, so there's a lot of cross over from gangs and gang members that are active throughout the whole midwest. Chicago serves as a very convenient midway point. There's been talk for a while of constructing a high speed commuter railway between Chicago and Detroit, which is being promoted as a way to let people live in MI and work in Chicago but will more likely serve as a pipeline for delivering yet more crime.

Chicago is smack in the middle of the country and is a major crossroad for all types of travel, air, train, car and even boats so it's easy to bring stuff into the city and offers a lot of ability to disappear in pretty much any direction if you are looking to suddenly escape town.

 Ouze wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Chicago has possibly the strictest gun laws in the United States, and it has the WORST gun violence. Go figure.

No, it doesn't. When you break down cities for violence, Chicago doesn't even make the top 10 for violent crimes or murders per capita. If Detroit (pop 700k) had the same number of people in it as Chicago (2.7m) , and all else remained equal, Detroit would have 1,200 gun murders a year - a rate triple that of Chicago.

The spike of violence Chicago is seeing is in no way a Chicago specific phenomenon. Murders are up in many major cities. Murders in Memphis have nearly doubled from this time last year, along with Jacksonville, Dallas, Las Vegas, and so on, but I guess those murders aren't politically useful.

You'll never see someone start a thread about the violence in Flint, or New Orleans, or St. Louis, or Stockton, or Memphis, or Indianapolis, but those cities all have more violence per capita than Chicago.

Maybe not here, but New Orleans is extremely well known for its violence-especially in the South. It also had many similarities to Chicago: hyper corrupt police, organized crime at all levels of society (in fact many of the same guys-my mom knew the Capone family who had a house down the street for instance). Smart tourists don't leave Bourbon Street.
New Orleans beats Chicago in having had an active serial killer on its police force. Top that windy city!

How does New Orleans do on the black site/torture aspect though? Chicago might have a trump card there!

 Dreadwinter wrote:
How does New Orleans do on the black site/torture aspect though? Chicago might have a trump card there!

Apologies - Black site?
I don't think this addresses your question, but NO has a pretty high level of black officers-at least before Katrina. Everything about NO is before Katrina/after Katrina.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-police-detain-americans-black-site

That is what I meant.

Well thats certainly different.

 sebster wrote:
Chicago is the key logistics pivot for US, all roads lead to Chicago. It's second only to New York for having F500 companies headquartered there.

But the roads that carry pork bellies and frozen orange juice also carry drugs. As such Chicago has a lot of gang activity, and that gang activity has a pretty lucrative incentive to actively enforce its business interests.

Add on top that some areas of Chicago that have been left with terrible rates of poverty and education, and you've pretty much got your murder problem explained.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:
Boston has some pretty restrictive gun laws, and that report shows that 90% of all murders were carried out using an unlawful weapon. In other words criminals found a way, illegally to gain access to a firearm.

Comparing gun laws put in place in individual cities that maintain open borders, with some kind of hypothetical national law is very silly. An individual city does not have customs, Chicago or Boston or anywhere else doesn't stop every truck and train coming in to the city to review the contents. It doesn't assign special policing teams to tracking any smuggling rings in to the city. In effect it creates a mild difficulty for anyone wanting an illegal firearm, nothing more than that. A federal system will have all those things.

That doesn't mean a federal system will work 100%, but to claim that it would only be as effective as a law put in place by a single city is ridiculous.

And yet.... All those drugs you mention are illegal from a Federal standpoint and yet still make it to and through Chicago. But with GUNZ it would be different

 Frazzled wrote:

New Orleans beats Chicago in having had an active serial killer on its police force. Top that windy city!

The what now! I want to hear more about NOLA PD's active serial killer!