Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Now that we have the Deathwatch codex coming out, we can be sure to find a whoke gakton of Deathwatch vs Deathwatch and Deathwatch vs Ultramarines for a few months.

How exactly would you explain this in fluff?

 Selym wrote:
Now that we have the Deathwatch codex coming out, we can be sure to find a whoke gakton of Deathwatch vs Deathwatch and Deathwatch vs Ultramarines for a few months.

How exactly would you explain this in fluff?

Training exercise.

Or if you want something for real:

1. Deathwatch accuses other Deathwatch group or Marine group of being corrupted by aliens and attacks them.

2. Deathwatch demands other Deathwatch group or Marine group hand over some alien artifacts/weapons for safekeeping. Other group refuses and says the first Deathwatch group is overstepping their bounds and they fight.

1) simulation exercise
2) mind control by primarch of genestealer, quite capable as they face eachother often; if a GK who is psychic can be taken over, surely this is possible
3) one side's blackshield is actually a fallen, the other side is mostly dark angels

I would think it's like when any inquisition forces come into conflict, different groups with different philosophies come into contact and disagree on how to continue. Remember, inquisitors go off on weird journeys, often bringing deathwatch with them, meaning that some Deathwatch marines could spend decades away from Erioch. Marines come into conflict all the time over different interpretations of the Emperor's will (e.g soul drinkers), the inquisition doubly so.

Yeah, just throwing 'training exercise' at it solves the question nicely.

Yes, they use live ammo. No one said being Deathwatch was going to be an easy job.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yeah, just throwing 'training exercise' at it solves the question nicely.

Yes, they use live ammo. No one said being Deathwatch was going to be an easy job.

My thoughts as well.

Inquisitors are not a united faction at all. Both sides could consider the other as traitors or an inconvenience at best. The Deathwatch would just be pawns in this political game.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yeah, just throwing 'training exercise' at it solves the question nicely.

Yes, they use live ammo. No one said being Deathwatch was going to be an easy job.

You can use simulated bullets and program the armour and weapons to appropriately interact as if real bullets were fired (ie, pointig bolter at enemy unit and pulling trigger, bolter synced with wielder's armour, sends a signal with the angle of the shot and tells the other armour where it was hit. Breastplate head on means fire, headshot = armour locks up as if dead). Melee they use the honour system, stopping before the killing blow but still play dead.

I wouldn't, just like 90% of other SM vs SM battles.

Easy enough to do without 'training exercise' bs.

Inquisitor A has dispatched Deathwatch killteam A to achieve mission A. This interferes with killteam B's mission B set out by Inquisitor B.

Even if the Inquisitors are closely monitoring the situation, they may believe their mission to be worth the sacrifice of the other.

There ya go.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Inquisitors are not a united faction at all. Both sides could consider the other as traitors or an inconvenience at best. The Deathwatch would just be pawns in this political game.

This is the way I'd roll, especially since I intend to bring a Xenos Inquisitor.

 Otto Weston wrote:
Easy enough to do without 'training exercise' bs.

Uhm, it is not BS though? The Deathwatch is a tiny organisation. They are both too tightly coherent and too small to fight among themselves.

Deathwatch killing Deathwatch on a xeno-hunting mission is the kind of absurdity that could happen between two IG artillery regiments due to an Administratum error, maybe, but once a Deathwatch killteam gets a mission and is told to 'tolerate no interference' only to find a second killteam there, they wouldn't attack - they would just be sure to ask the Inquisitor when they return why they weren't told of the additional support.

The Imperium's struggle with administration largely happens on a much higher level. It doesn't suddenly make every team leader an idiot.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Easy enough to do without 'training exercise' bs.

Uhm, it is not BS though? The Deathwatch is a tiny organisation. They are both too tightly coherent and too small to fight among themselves.

Deathwatch killing Deathwatch on a xeno-hunting mission is the kind of absurdity that could happen between two IG artillery regiments due to an Administratum error, maybe, but once a Deathwatch killteam gets a mission and is told to 'tolerate no interference' only to find a second killteam there, they wouldn't attack - they would just be sure to ask the Inquisitor when they return why they weren't told of the additional support.

The Imperium's struggle with administration largely happens on a much higher level. It doesn't suddenly make every team leader an idiot.

Just because there are two killteams in the area doesn't mean they have the same mission, their missions could actually be complete opposites. When they realize that they are interfering with each other's missions they will each contact their respective Inquisitors, and one or both of those Inquisitors could very well order them to engage the opposing killteam.

That seems like a more interesting foundation for the skirmish than a training exercise IMO.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Easy enough to do without 'training exercise' bs.

Uhm, it is not BS though? The Deathwatch is a tiny organisation. They are both too tightly coherent and too small to fight among themselves.

Deathwatch killing Deathwatch on a xeno-hunting mission is the kind of absurdity that could happen between two IG artillery regiments due to an Administratum error, maybe, but once a Deathwatch killteam gets a mission and is told to 'tolerate no interference' only to find a second killteam there, they wouldn't attack - they would just be sure to ask the Inquisitor when they return why they weren't told of the additional support.

The Imperium's struggle with administration largely happens on a much higher level. It doesn't suddenly make every team leader an idiot.

Just because there are two killteams in the area doesn't mean they have the same mission, their missions could actually be complete opposites. When they realize that they are interfering with each other's missions they will each contact their respective Inquisitors, and one or both of those Inquisitors could very well order them to engage the opposing killteam.

That seems like a more interesting foundation for the skirmish than a training exercise IMO.

Interesting but absurd. Deathwatch are experienced veterans, they won't simply follow orders to kill members of several other chapters. Apart from overzealous Killteam leaders like a Black Templar, likely what would happen is the two killteams would try and figure a way to quietly resolve the issue rather than kill allies, indeed, some members of either killteam might be from the same chapter, friends even. If the two had objectives like "Protect Relic A with your lives as it could rid the galaxy of Orks," and "Destroy Relic A as it is a dangerous Xenos device and needs purgeningining," then it would come down to the two killteams deciding which to go with. The two Inquisitors are of equal rank, unless they are vastly different in power, the victorious Inquisitor would protect the other Killteam.

Indeed. Killing loyalist Space Marines is heresy, and Inquisitors are very much capable of heresy themselves. If ordered to kill their own without any reason except 'my mission is totally more important, and it is better they die than to interfere with it!' the killteam would just contact the other killteam instead.

So what if it's absurd, it's 40k. I just think there are a ton of ways to depict Deathwatch vs Deathwatch that are more interesting than "training exercise". Yes, many of them will be absurd, but probably no more absurd than the situations we've seen in many BL novels.

 Deadshot wrote:


Interesting but absurd. Deathwatch are experienced veterans, they won't simply follow orders to kill members of several other chapters. Apart from overzealous Killteam leaders like a Black Templar...

Besmirching the good name of the Black Templars, the Emperors most level-headed sons? Kill Team Iratus, destroy this heretic and the brothers he has corrupted with his lies!

Other options are that:
A Kill Team has been stranded in a ruined city, fighting Mimician shape shifters and Brainsluggian bodysnatchers for a year, stranded from support. When support arrives, it's clearly another trap.
A Blood Angel went full RIP AND TEAR during a joint strike. Civilians get eaten/drained. His kill team brothers, loyal to the Angel for his years of service stand in the way of another kill team who wish to report this to an inquisitor.
The Codex Astartes didn't support that action. An Ultramarine assembles a kill team of successors and personal allies to reign in some renegade Carcharodon or Templar who foolishly has not been slavishly following the 10,000yo writings of the Spiritual Liege. Runaway success is no excuse for unorthodoxy and they have clearly been corrupted by Xenos influence during their missions.
A Librarian claims to have accessed the Tyranid hivemind's telepathy and has produced pages upon pages of what profess to be the migration plans and dispositions for the next decade or so. The brothers who witnessed this will vouch for him but the Inquisition fears xenos mind control and the corrupted psyker cannot be allowed back to the Watch Fortress. Everything turns out ok though, when they find out he is an Ultramarine and can do no wrong.
Unidentified Black armoured Renegades have disguised themselves as Deathwatch. The Kill Team comes under attack by those professing to be brothers.
Dark Angels have disguised themselves as Deathwatch and attack for no reason whatsoever, wiping out the survivors of the previous action against the renegades.
Alpha Legion have disguised themselves as Deathwatch and attack the Dark Angels who have disguised themselves as Deathwatch, drawing the Deathwatch into a bloody civil war as more troops are committed.
The 8th Cadian are suspected of xeno influence but the Kill Team sent to investigate finds that a separate Kill Team attacks from an unexpected quarter, having been tasked with blocking their path.

Philosophies of Watch fortress A, who predominantly deals with Necrons/Necrons will have a markedly different MO to the marines of Watch Fortress B who incidentally spend a lot of time dealing with Nids/Orks.

Watch fortress A may (due to inquisition influence) be more willing to negotiate with members of their main enemy races and/or utilise their equipment. This would be seen as more radical and bordering on the line of heresy to the members of watch fortress B who take a more puritan tone of just purging the xenon scum of all shapes and sizes, no matter what a member of the enemy may bring to the table.

After many years of tension, the straw breaks the camels back and the members of watch fortress B decide to bring their brothers to account, by force if necessary, and obviously the members of fortress A will not take it lightly.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Indeed. Killing loyalist Space Marines is heresy, and Inquisitors are very much capable of heresy themselves. If ordered to kill their own without any reason except 'my mission is totally more important, and it is better they die than to interfere with it!' the killteam would just contact the other killteam instead.

Good thing then the loser of any Imperium vs. Imperium fight is always the heretic. The winner writes history and gets to declare who is the heretic.

Yeah, I can't see the Deathwatch just mindlessly following orders and killing another Kill Team because "an Inquisitor told me so". They're aware of Inquisitors being overcome by daemonic/xenos influence, so will hesitate on killing their brethren.

Watch Fortresses aren't THAT different in ideology - the ideology will vary as per the Marine, not via Fortress. I think the Deathwatch, or a member of it, would be above attacking another asset of the Imperium.

The idea of "false flags" is probably the best idea alongside the training exercise idea - either in that one side of Deathwatch really are Alpha Legion or other disguised forces, OR that possibly they are both Deathwatch, and the same Inquisitor has ordered each team into the area to attack a threat disguised and wearing Deahtwatch armour - a la a certain episode of Star Wars: The Clone Wars (see General Krell). This could have cool story implications with the Kill Teams joining their shattered forces to bring down the heretical Inquisitor.