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Ok, so I'm struggling a bit to make a competitive list for next years Schools League tournament. I've decided that I want to start playing daemons, as I already have a CSM collection. I know the points cost is low, but I would like to get a very competitive list out of it. This is what I came up to start with:

+++ DAEMONS!!! (450pts) +++

++ Chaos Daemons: Codex (2013) (Combined Arms Detachment) (450pts) ++

+ HQ (300pts) +

Kairos Fateweaver (300pts) [Daemon of Tzeentch, Warlord, Warlord Trait:]
Rules: Change Discipline, Daemon, Daemonic Instability, Deep Strike, Fear, Hatred (Daemon of Nurgle), Lord of Unreality, Oracle of Eternity, Re-roll all Saving throws results of 1, The Two Heads of Fate, Tzeentch Psyker Powers
Profiles:
Kairos Fateweaver: Unit Type:Monstrous Creature (Character)|WS:1|BS:6|S:5|T:5|W:5|I:2|A:1|Ld:9|Save:-
Staff of Tomorrow: Description:Re-roll a single D6 once per turn. Can be one of any 2D6, 3D6 etc rolls, but just a single D6.

+ Troops (90pts) +

Nurglings (45pts) [Daemon of Nurgle, 3x Nurglings (45pts)]
Rules: Daemon, Daemonic Instability, Deep Strike, Fear, Hatred (Daemon of Tzeencth), Infiltrate, Shrouded, Slow & Purposeful, Swarms
Profiles:
Nurglings: Unit Type:Infantry|WS:3|BS:3|S:3|T:3|W:4|I:3|A:4|Ld:7|Save:

Nurglings (45pts) [Daemon of Nurgle, 3x Nurglings (45pts)]
Rules: Daemon, Daemonic Instability, Deep Strike, Fear, Hatred (Daemon of Tzeencth), Infiltrate, Shrouded, Slow & Purposeful, Swarms
Profiles:
Nurglings: Unit Type:Infantry|WS:3|BS:3|S:3|T:3|W:4|I:3|A:4|Ld:7|Save:

+ Fast Attack (60pts) +

Hellflayers of Slaanesh (60pts) [Daemon of Slaanesh, Exalted Alluress]
Rules: Additional inches when Run, Flat Out moves, Daemon, Daemonic Instability, Deep Strike, Fear, Fleet, Fleshshredder, Hatred (Daemon of Khorne), Rending, Soulscent
Profiles:
Exalted Alluress: Unit Type:Infantry (Character)|WS:5|BS:4|S:3|T:3|W:1|I:5|A:4|Ld:7|Save:-
Hellflayer Chariot of Slaanesh: BS:4|Front:11|Side:11|Rear:10|HP:2|Type:Chariot, Fast, Open-Topped

++ Selection Rules ++

Additional inches when Run, Flat Out moves
Change Discipline
Daemon: 5+ Invunerable Save and causes fear.
Daemonic Instability
Deep Strike
Fear
Fleet
Fleshshredder
Hatred (Daemon of Khorne)
Hatred (Daemon of Nurgle)
Hatred (Daemon of Tzeencth)
Infiltrate
Lord of Unreality
Oracle of Eternity
Re-roll all Saving throws results of 1
Rending
Shrouded
Slow & Purposeful
Soulscent
Swarms
The Two Heads of Fate
Tzeentch Psyker Powers

Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)

Looking at this list I can see many flaws yet I'm not sure how to go about making a competitive daemons list. If someone could help me, I'm open to all suggestions, even completely scrapping that list and making one with a completely different direction.
Thanks in advance for your help!

OK . . . So here is your list

HQ - Kairos Fateweaver (1) (Warlord) - 300pts

Troops- Nurglings or Nurgle (3) - 45pts
Nurglings of Nurgle (3) - 45pts

Fast Attack- Hellflayer of Slaanesh (1) - 60pts

Total- - 450pts


It's hard to plan out 450 point games, but Chaos Daemons excel at low point games. Clearly its not a good idea to pop out a single model worth over 50% of your armies points; let alone over 66%, Sooooo not the best call. IF you already own that model then consider buying Pink Horrors. In fact, buy Pink Horrors anyways. They are the bread and butter of the Daemon army, unless you go 100% Nurgle or 100% Slaanesh.

The power in Daemons is in Tzeentch. Flamers, Screamers, Exalted Flamers, Heralds, and Horrors. But if you push full units, Seekers, Beasts of Nurgle, Skull Cannons, and Chariots of Slaanesh and Tzeentch are golden. Also Nurglings are cheep objective holders, and the Soulgrinders of Nurgle are your Powerhouse.

For low points your just playing around. But if you want some power at low point games think Warp Charges, and Psykers.

Here's a competitive list out of my head with models I almost always run.

HQ - Herald Pack - Herald of Tzeentch, Lvl 3, Disk, Exalted Reward (Tzeentch Warlord) - 150pts

Troops - Pink Horrors of Tzeentch(11) - 99pts
Pink Horrors of Tzeentch(11) - 99pts

Fast Attack - Screamers of Tzeentch (4) - 100pts

Total - - 448pts

Not much to go on, but heck its 7 warp charges plus if you take the Portalgliph and spawn horrors every turn you will see more charges. It's all Tzeentch, you can summon, you can bite, you can turbo boost objective to objective.
Most importantly they can all be used in every game you play, and then if you double it you would have a strong 900 point list. Two Heralds means a Grimwar of True Names and a Portalgliph, one herald might even get an Eitherblade for free. Using the Tzeentch warlord traits, you could make your warlord cast on a 3+ instead of a 4+, all those traits are good. But honestly, its fun to play, you move up to 36" a turn, can get a 2+ inv rerollable, you can run a double star of 9 screamers each, and summon more to turbo boost objectives. Plus they are all really easy to paint.... just bare skin and horns, horrors are bare skin and bracelets. You can summon in almost every unit in the codex as you collect them. And once again, they are always useful.

If I sold you on Tzeentch then go pick up some Chariots of Tzeentch, build the Exalted Flamer, Build the Herald and glue each one to the disks that are mounted onto the chariot..... NEVER glue those mounts to the chariot. Magnetize them, pin them, shoot.... just leave the chariots on sprue, but NEVER glue the disks to the chariots.

Actually, having a nasty HQ like that at 450pts could be devastating to most other armies, as long as you plan to summon with it.

FW is great for this, but I think your list lacks some punch. FW really only helps when your army is bigger. Why not go for a Lord of Change with Robes, ML3, 2x Greater rewards & Staff (swapping a lesser reward)?

You'd need to drop the chariot (which you should do anyway, it's crap) and then bump the Nurglings to 4 each.
Now you have a CC beast that will probably never die (nothing I can think of could kill it in a 450pt game). Rolling on Daemonology for Incursion, Sacrifice or Cursed Earth, swapping anything else for Summoning.

If you can manage to use Incursion to summon 3 Plague Drones (with Champ, Icon & Instrument), you now have close to 600pts total. If you summon up to 3 units of anything over the course of the game, your opponent will be overwhelmed.
If you really want to use your chariot model. you can use Sacrifice to summon a Slaanesh Herald on Chariot, although a Tz Disc Herald is a much better choice

-

Thanks for your suggestions guys, I will playtest both these lists before I commit too much money into buying the models! Just got a couple of questions and things I would like to clarify. Firstly do Hellforged Artefacts like the Portalglyph and Grimoire cost points because I could not find any points values for them in the codex?

@LordFueFue You have indeed sold to me the idea of Tzeentch - although I was halfway there anyway! You talk about taking a Hellforged artefact in my list what do you think would be the most beneficial for that sort of list - the Grimoire or the Portalglyph? Also I got a bit confused about the bit at the end regarding the chariot. Does that mean I can build a herald on a disc and an exalted flamer on a chariot from the same kit? If you could clarify those bits that would be great.

@Galef I like the idea of having a complete CC monster high point warlord, but I'm not completely sure about the fact that I don't have many models on the table. Although he's ML3 I'm not sure he will be able to bring in the summons that would completely secure a game. Either way I'm very happy to give this sort of list idea a go and don't worry - the chariot is well and truly dropped!!

One thing to note is the completely stupid 40 minute time limit for games which means you need to be scoring points as quick as possible which means time cant be wasted my only issue is that summoning lots of units takes time

Dude swap that fateweaver for a Lord of Change, give him a the Paradox and max his psyker powers, this will garrentee summoning a unit of daemons each turn, meaning in a 450 point game you are summoning an extra 100 points per turn??? Not to mention he is cheaper that fateweaver so you can add a few more units. In addition the hellflayer of slannesh is garbage your better off getting a unit of daemonettes, that way it wont die in 1 or 2 shots.

When dealing with time just be quick, fateweaver would also take ages just to roll all his powers let alone keepimg track of them

. . . . You came to the right place. . . .

I feel I can help a lot. . .

About Artifacts:

You can only get a Hellforged Artifacts by taking an Exalted Reward, roll 1D6, and choosing the artifact instead of the number you roll 2-6. On 1 you get a free lessor reward, and can reroll the resault. I once rolled a one three times in a row. You can only take each artifact once in your whole army and a model can only hold one artifact. Named daemons like Fateweaver and Skarbrand start the game with thier own Hellforged Artifacts listed on thier profiles.

Additional Helforged Artifacts are listed in the Chaos Daemons Compedium "Scions of the Warp." In that book you'll find 6 additional artifacts for each chaos god, all with restrictions and points values. The book also has 6 warlord traits for each god and all the new daemon formations. The core formation of Tzeentch is called "Warpflame Host." It calls on 1 herald and 9 units of Tzeentch including Exalted flamers, horrors, and flamers. As in most Detatchments, the "Scions of the Warp" require at least one core formation and one auxiliary choice. A unit of furies is the cheapest auxiliary choice, but a squadron of three Soul Grinders is what I like to field.

About Joining Tzeentch:

Horrors are tzeentch's only troop. They are affective in larger groups 11, 12, 16, or 17. This means you'll need to buy a lot of them. There are no individual plastic heralds for sale except Nurgle's. Named daemons and a Tzeentch herald on disk can be found in resign. GW wants you to buy the chariots or forgeworld model bundles in order to get heralds. Lucky for Tzeentch, the Burning Chaiot of Tzeentch has a plastic herald in every box. On the sprue there are 2 small disks that slot into the chariots frame. One disk is flat perfect for the exaltes flamer, the second has sculpted daemon toes and half a heralds foot. The herald has the choice of being glued to the second disk or a majic surf board both will complete his feet but you will need to choose one. If you dont glue the disk to the chariot body then you can switch them anytime. This means you could have an exalted flamer on foot, herald on foot, herald on chariot, exalted flamer on chariot.

The set also includes 3 small blue horrors, and 2 screamers. The screamers are glued at the end of their tails so magnatizing, making removable, or kit bashing to be a stand in screamer is much more difficult. If you find small wings or sculpt greenstuff wings you can make the blue horrors into Tzeentch Furies. So if you bout 5 of this set and went a bit crazy in modeling and magnatizing you could run any combination of the following: 15 Tzeentch furies, 10 Screamers, 5 exalted flamers, 5 heralds, 5 heralds on disk, and/or 5 chaiots of Tzeentch. It would take a lot of work to do all the conversions but looking off in the future it would be most of a Tzeentch army for cheap. The real money is in the summoning and Monsters.


About Fateweaver:

CONS- He is way too expensive for a lower point game. His warlord trait is ineffective compaired to Tzeentch specific traits. He knows 11 spells which requires book keeping and a lot of choices (longer Psykic Phase). Non of his spells can be summoning or summoning support. He is WS 1, I 2, W 5, A 1; so when he joins combat or falls to the ground, he will die.

PROS- His model size and shape is near exact to the Lord of Change so everyone will allow the proxy. The Lord of Change proxy is affective as a flying monsterous creature phyker who has access to summoning. The Lord of Change is WS 6, I 6, W 6, A 5; he crushes in combat. Either model, as a warlord, makes daemon princes of Tzeentch "Heavy Support;" meaning you can field 5 flying monster psykers (AKA "Flying Circus").

SUPER PRO- At higher point games his reroll of one dice per turn (your turn and your opponents turn) can be game changing. A screamer star at max 9 models is 225 pts adding in heralds for cursed earth, grimwar of true names, and other spells makes this screamer star well over 450pts. If the grimwar and cursed earth go off the whole unit (minus the grimwar holder) have a 2+ rerollable inv. save. If you roll a 1 or 2 when using the grimwar at the start of a turn your 450+ point unit is at 6+ inv. Not 2+... Do you see how that one roll can break the game? Fateweaver lets you reroll that one dice. If he is targetted reroll the grounding test and keep him in the air. He can fly by cursed earth and keep a 3+ inv. Rerolling 1s. . .this is how the screamer star works. If you run two screamer stars and manage to roll 1 or 2 twice in a row, your heralds can still jump over to the second star. If fateweaver, Belikor, or a Daemon Prince Psyker is close by with Shroud, endurance, or Invisablity they can buff the screamer stars too. As can those heralds on disk you include in scream stars for spell support.

SUPER CON- Everything I described about competitive Tzeentch is done in different phases. Artfacts start movement phase, move, count warp charges, psycic phase, warp storm, turbo boost, shoot, combat, demonic instability test.....everything takes time. Summoned horrors are lvl 1 psykers (one spell), fielded horrors 1-20 also just lvl 1 psyker (one spell). Summoned heralds get 30 points of upgrades (psker lvls, locis, mounts, or rewards). Greater daemons summoned or fielded have spells and rewards too. Summoning, possession, sacrifice, encursion, Boon of Flame, and 11 or 12 on the warp storm will add in aditional units. Staff of change, riftbringer, and the portalgliph also creates new units. Thats a total of 25 different units that can be summoned through 9 different spells and abilities. SUMMONING TAKES A LOT OF TIME AND PRACTICE. Know your choices, spells, units, and abilites. Memorise Parils of the warp, deep strike mishap, Melific powers, Tzeentch powers, and remember all you special abilities before and after the psykic phase. And most importantly KEEP COMPETITIVE LISTS AND TACTICS AWAY FROM FRIENDLY GAMES.

People don't want to see an aditional 1,000 pts of units come onto the board to hold most the objectives. They become morally broken when their stars throw 20 AP 2 wounds on you only to hope you role 1 twice. They break inside when your screamer star lands 9 S5 Ap2 Armorbane wounds to there tanks lines in a disordered charge. They feel like thier wasting time when your horrors go to ground on objectives in any fortification getting a 2+ rerollible cover save while making warp charges. KEEP IT FUN FOR BOTH PLAYERS.


Oh, and keep a notebook or paper to list spells, rewards, and units not gaining formation buffs (unpaid reinforcements). Also the portalgliph.

Portalgliph tactics:

Very useful in low point lists with psykers. Counts as a vehical only 2mm tall with a daemon inv. save. Can bring in scoring horrors that are not objective secure but will generate one extra warp charge and a spell, hopefully the one you need at the time. Super effective if that spell is Possession or Sacrifice because the horror units from the portalgliph are already at a very low unit size. To think, one horror disembarks from the portal only to have a nearby psyker cast sacrifice on it making it into a herald with 30pts of upgrades. Maybe the horror knows cursed earth and casts a +1 inv save near a unit that needs it. Or maybe, just maybe, the horror knows possession and in the following phase becomes a mighty D thirster just a turn away from a game-changing assault.


Portalgliph OR Grimwar of True Names

Portalgliph might be amazing anytime, more amazing in low point games. Its a 50/50 chance to work but in malstorm missions it can hold objectives, spawn units, and make your opponent tank hunt. Its worth the 30 points as an exalted reward.

Grimwar of true names is very useful when applied to screamer stars, squadrons, or allied daemon squads. It can make or break your most expensive groups of units so its better to take Fateweaver for the reroll, fallback units, or spell support unit just in case. It is 2nd to the portalgliph if your army isn't running any stars or squadrons. And you will need to add a plan B incase it fails you.


However there are dozens of other competitive ways to run Tzeetch and other daemons. But horrors and heralds are useful in all.

How competitive are we talking? Like WAAC people gonna hate you competetive? Or you still wanna have friends?

If your looking to be friendly but competitive I would go with a Gorepack from the khorne daemonkin.

Gorepack:

Bikers x2 with melta guns plus champ with melta bombs and combi-boltor - 104

Bikers x2 with melta guns plus champ with melta bombs and combi-boltor - 104

Flesh hounds x 5 - 80
Flesh hounds x 5 - 80
Flesh hounds x 5 - 80

Total - 448

This list is pretty beastly given how fast the hounds are and the formation gives all hounds hammer of wrath and the bikes hammer of wrath gain shred. Melta guns on the bikes combined with their outflank can probably wipe anything decent at this size. Hounds have two wounds and is a daemon of khorne so it gets furious charge so s5 3 attacks on the charge for all of them scouting 12."

Also while it is small this list does get blood tithes so if you get 3 you can have feel no pain for a turn army wide.


Now if you dislike people I would go with this Tzeentch army

Cad:


HQ -
Tzherald w/ disk, ml 3, greater reward(grimoire of true names) - 150
Tzherald ml 1, and paradox - 70

Troops-
Nurglings x 4 - 60
Nurglings x 3 - 45

Fast attack-
Screamers of Tzeentch x 5 - 125

Total - 450


Obviously this list brings a Screamerstar at under 500 pts with a guaranteed 5 wc dice(4 mastery lvls plus at least 1 from winds of the warp) and paradox so one summoning per turn guaranteed. I feel a little dirty... Keep the paradox herald hidden in the back of course and the grimoire herald with the Screamers and assault anything you view as a threat, or if it's objectives just turbo boost over them to do their slashing attack and grab the objective you need until your summoned units(the best to pick will vary but I recommend daemonettes or pink horrors for most situations at that size) thing will get silly if you get possession xD. If summoning is unneeded Than cast whatever you dove for in the disc herald(hopefully cursed earth)

Both are fun I think. The warpstorm table might hurt the Tzeentch list but fear could he fun, daemonkin don't have fear or suffer from Daemonic instability/warpstorm shenanigans, they did however get fearless. Lemme know if you like

Also a great list. . . Add in a juggerlord of khorn (choas lord on a juggernaught with added weapons). This will let you play with the Daemonkin artifacts they all do some crazy stuff. The hellhounds are good ... daemonkin, khorne, or daemons undividied.

 Lord Fue Fue wrote:
Also a great list. . . Add in a juggerlord of khorn (choas lord on a juggernaught with added weapons). This will let you play with the Daemonkin artifacts they all do some crazy stuff. The hellhounds are good ... daemonkin, khorne, or daemons undividied.

I would love too, but I would have to take a cad instead of Gorepack and the troop tax would hurt along with my love of making my jugger lord super beefy(pf, lc, soc, bfa) I just wouldnt have the bikes or as many dogs. Akari taking then as a cad loses hammer of wrath for the dogs and shred on the bikes'.

As a side note I read earlier posts just now and your advice was super on. As a further note on Fateweaver. I highly suggest rolling all his powers out instead of just taking primaris to save time(seen this happen so much). Taking that one dice to dive works out more often than people would think.

If your looking for a school league daemon summoning list this is what I made for my friend now that the 40 minute time limit appears to have been removed

Cad
Hq1 Herald of Tzeentch mastery lvl 3 1 exalted reward
Hq2 Herald of Tzeentch mastery lvl 3 1 exalted reward

Troop 1 11x Pink horrors
Troop 2 11x Pink horrors

Take the impossible robe on your non warlord herald roll on daemonology with everything take the d shot if you need it from the change table and hope you get cursed earth enjoy your 2+ re-rollable invuln save or make it riskier but give it to the whole squad with the grimoire. Also if you fancy seeing some example school league lists PM me so you can see what you might have issues with

Sqauwky wrote:
If your looking for a school league daemon summoning list this is what I made for my friend now that the 40 minute time limit appears to have been removed

Cad
Hq1 Herald of Tzeentch mastery lvl 3 1 exalted reward
Hq2 Herald of Tzeentch mastery lvl 3 1 exalted reward

Troop 1 11x Pink horrors
Troop 2 11x Pink horrors

Take the impossible robe on your non warlord herald roll on daemonology with everything take the d shot if you need it from the change table and hope you get cursed earth enjoy your 2+ re-rollable invuln save or make it riskier but give it to the whole squad with the grimoire. Also if you fancy seeing some example school league lists PM me so you can see what you might have issues with

This list is nasty but you will have to make decision: will you take the portaglyph or eternal grimoire on your second herald?
(Personally I never take the grimoire of true names; its too easy for everything to go qrong and leave you with a 6+ save)
The portaglyph will spawn you extra units every turn but presumably you are doing that with summoning, on the other hand the portaglyph's summoning will free you up a turn or two of summoning.
Eternal grimoire will give you access to the Str D power, which at 450 is devastating.

I would lean towards eternal grimoire because it gives your army some killing power rather than just objective shenanigans. But its your decision.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Sqauwky wrote:
If your looking for a school league daemon summoning list this is what I made for my friend now that the 40 minute time limit appears to have been removed

Cad
Hq1 Herald of Tzeentch mastery lvl 3 1 exalted reward
Hq2 Herald of Tzeentch mastery lvl 3 1 exalted reward

Troop 1 11x Pink horrors
Troop 2 11x Pink horrors

Take the impossible robe on your non warlord herald roll on daemonology with everything take the d shot if you need it from the change table and hope you get cursed earth enjoy your 2+ re-rollable invuln save or make it riskier but give it to the whole squad with the grimoire. Also if you fancy seeing some example school league lists PM me so you can see what you might have issues with

This list is nasty but you will have to make decision: will you take the portaglyph or eternal grimoire on your second herald?
(Personally I never take the grimoire of true names; its too easy for everything to go qrong and leave you with a 6+ save)
The portaglyph will spawn you extra units every turn but presumably you are doing that with summoning, on the other hand the portaglyph's summoning will free you up a turn or two of summoning.
Eternal grimoire will give you access to the Str D power, which at 450 is devastating.

I would lean towards eternal grimoire because it gives your army some killing power rather than just objective shenanigans. But its your decision.

So after doing some practice games with my friend I have learnt that this list is extremely difficult to deal with if he gets first turn. In the few test games we had I calculated he had summoned 1000 points of extra stuff and had 2 possessions that he forgot about all game. All I can say is that this list is extremely powerful when played right and when the right stuff is summoned