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I'm reading my way through galaxy in flames, and while I found myself a little confused with Horus' plan:

1. Kill the loyalists. Fine, very logical.
2. My plan gets screwed up by Angron and loyalists. It happens.
3. Head to Istvaan V and wait.

This all makes sense. However, Horus almost certainly didn't plan for the loyalists to tie him up for weeks and bleed his 4 legions, and certainly not for word of his rebellion to get out. So if his plan had succeeded, what was he going to do after virus-bombing III? Wait for someone to wonder for 4 legions had completely dropped off the radar?
For the purposes of this, we're assuming that his plan goes off without a hitch. The fleet-loyalists die without much off a fight and the ground loyalists die in the bombing. What do you think Horus should/would have done from there?

For my 2 cents, I would say he should have tried to turn Khan and the white scars in person. He surely had a much better chance than old Morty, and getting the WS would probably have won him the heresy. However, he could easily have done this before going to III.

I think his plan was to immediately head for Terra, whilst the Word Bearers tie up the Ultramarines to stop them from interfering. It wasn't so much that the virus bombing/Angron failed, rather the frigate Eisenstein escaping to warn Terra of the Isstvan III betrayal that forced Horus to go for the Isstvan V lure. At least that's the impression I get.

Edit: also Fulgrim failing to lure Manus to the Warmaster's side, and revealing Horus' intentions in the process, forced a change in plans.

Didn't Horus wanted to secure some backyard first? Forgeworlds, muster points, relay stations? Not to mention there were other Legions, whose loyalty had to be ascertained, like the DA and WS. I don't really think that master strageist like Lupercal would make a beeline towards Terra.

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
Didn't Horus wanted to secure some backyard first? Forgeworlds, muster points, relay stations? Not to mention there were other Legions, whose loyalty had to be ascertained, like the DA and WS. I don't really think that master strageist like Lupercal would make a beeline towards Terra.

I'm reading Fallen Angels at the moment and that has a little snippet of what the Warmaster was planning. Haven't finished the book yet though, so can't say for sure how that works out

He would have moved with much more speed than he did. He was tied up for months with Saul Tarvitz, Loken, and Torgaddon. Those extra months, plus the slower reaction time from the Loyalists if the Eisenstein hadn't made it away, would probably have swung it for him.

He would have sent his underlines, particularly Fulgrim as the charismatic persona, to bring those yet unsided to his side, kill on Sanguinius (his only real threat, regardless of which side he chose), tie up the Ultras with the Word Bearers, have the Wolves and Sons kill each other off. They he can attack Terra unmolested with half the Mechanicum, most of the Army and all the Legions he needs. Iron Warriors break the Palace, World Eaters and Death Guard storm and wipe out the defenders, send in Fulgrim and the III to finish them off, while he struck the Throneroom itself all his might as a spearpoint, break the Emperor over his knee in a grand gesture and take the Throne as the new, benevolent ruler of mankind. Meanwhile, the turned Legions (most likely the Dark Angels, possibly the Scars) deal with the remainder of the loyals, including the Iron Hands, Salamanders and the Raven Guard. The Alpha Legion ended up on Horus side and left to do their thing, the Night Lords set loose to enforce Horus rule or executed as dangerous, or pit against the XII to wipe both wildcards out at once.

 ChazSexington wrote:
He would have moved with much more speed than he did. He was tied up for months with Saul Tarvitz, Loken, and Torgaddon. Those extra months, plus the slower reaction time from the Loyalists if the Eisenstein hadn't made it away, would probably have swung it for him.

By the way, it really put the Emperor and the rest of loyal forces in the galaxy, in a really bad light - Horus massacres hundreds of loyal Legionares for months, and the rest of the Galaxy has no fething clue...

Maybe Istvaan V had always been part of his plan. It was a master stroke that effectively destroyed 3 whole Legions and guaranteed the alliance of 4 other Legions. I think Istvaan 3 put Horus back a long time due to the unsuccessful Virus bomb attempt and the Eisenstein making Terra aware sooner rather than when Horus wanted it. Giving Dorn the chance to reinforce Terra more than it would have been.

If it wasn't planned then he certainly used it to his advantage.

I am not sure how the traitors would have fared if there were not so many of them during the Siege of Terra. Or if 7 whole Legions started to converge on Terra, abandoning their current crusade, and how the others would react.

Horus seems to have planned way in advance some of the locations of the Legions. Kor Phaerons attack on the Ultramarines as they muster at Calth. The White Scars to be as far away as possible, the Blood Angels at Signus Prime. The Space Wolves and Thousand Sons seems to be a convenient thing that he also capitalised on. He probably guessed that Magnus would do something after his rising at the Delphos

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
He would have moved with much more speed than he did. He was tied up for months with Saul Tarvitz, Loken, and Torgaddon. Those extra months, plus the slower reaction time from the Loyalists if the Eisenstein hadn't made it away, would probably have swung it for him.

By the way, it really put the Emperor and the rest of loyal forces in the galaxy, in a really bad light - Horus massacres hundreds of loyal Legionares for months, and the rest of the Galaxy has no fething clue...

It doesn't. The galaxy is a big place, and communication is slow and unreliable. It is not like they have galaxywide mobile networks or internet in 40k... How was the Emperor supposed to find out? Read it on Twitter?

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
He would have moved with much more speed than he did. He was tied up for months with Saul Tarvitz, Loken, and Torgaddon. Those extra months, plus the slower reaction time from the Loyalists if the Eisenstein hadn't made it away, would probably have swung it for him.

By the way, it really put the Emperor and the rest of loyal forces in the galaxy, in a really bad light - Horus massacres hundreds of loyal Legionares for months, and the rest of the Galaxy has no fething clue...

It doesn't. The galaxy is a big place, and communication is slow and unreliable. It is not like they have galaxywide mobile networks or internet in 40k... How was the Emperor supposed to find out? Read it on Twitter?

True, but the original telling of the story had the Emperor feeling the demise of so many billions of people and knowing that something was wrong. It's also mentioned in a couple of places in the Heresy series, I think The Outcast Dead is an example, that the Emperor already knows about Horus betrayal. Which then raises the question, if this is the case, why did the Emperor not act sooner and more effectively.

I suspect he'd have moved and engaged people elsewhere. The thing is; if Istvaan III had gone to plan, he could have moved on Terra a lot faster. Yes, there were other loyalist legions out there, but he knew that ultimately, Terra - and the Emperor - were all that mattered.

If he'd been able to move faster, in theory he'd have faced one legion instead of three with far better prepared defences.

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
He would have moved with much more speed than he did. He was tied up for months with Saul Tarvitz, Loken, and Torgaddon. Those extra months, plus the slower reaction time from the Loyalists if the Eisenstein hadn't made it away, would probably have swung it for him.

By the way, it really put the Emperor and the rest of loyal forces in the galaxy, in a really bad light - Horus massacres hundreds of loyal Legionares for months, and the rest of the Galaxy has no fething clue...

As mentioned, it was very far away.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Maybe Istvaan V had always been part of his plan. It was a master stroke that effectively destroyed 3 whole Legions and guaranteed the alliance of 4 other Legions. I think Istvaan 3 put Horus back a long time due to the unsuccessful Virus bomb attempt and the Eisenstein making Terra aware sooner rather than when Horus wanted it. Giving Dorn the chance to reinforce Terra more than it would have been.

If it wasn't planned then he certainly used it to his advantage.

I am not sure how the traitors would have fared if there were not so many of them during the Siege of Terra. Or if 7 whole Legions started to converge on Terra, abandoning their current crusade, and how the others would react.

Horus seems to have planned way in advance some of the locations of the Legions. Kor Phaerons attack on the Ultramarines as they muster at Calth. The White Scars to be as far away as possible, the Blood Angels at Signus Prime. The Space Wolves and Thousand Sons seems to be a convenient thing that he also capitalised on. He probably guessed that Magnus would do something after his rising at the Delphos

AFAIK, Isstvan V was the plan all along. The plan was however to have the Iron Hands side with Horus as well.

 ChazSexington wrote:

AFAIK, Isstvan V was the plan all along. The plan was however to have the Iron Hands side with Horus as well.

Yeah, I didn't want to outright say this as from the thread it seemed that some thought the dropsite massacre was a by product of the delay at Istvaan 3 and not an initial plan. Everything was a plan where Horus was involved.

Further to my post then I will say that if Istvaan 3 had gone according to plan, no Eisenstein and no angry Angron, the Warmaster still would have instigated the dropsite massacre, but it would have been more on his terms. The difference here though would be that each of the traitor Legions involved in the Istvaan 3 atrocity would still have been largely intact, though diminished due to the loyalists being destroyed. Istvaan V would have had a worse outcome for the 3 loyalists legions as they would have suffered even more casualties, if not being totally destroyed.

I think that Horus wanted Fulgrim to bring Ferrus to his cause, but I think, being the Warmaster, Horus had the notion that Ferrus wouldn't join him. He bargained for Ferrus anger at the betrayal which played totally into Horus hands and the Loyalists were a Primarch down.

I think heading straight to Terra would have been the wrong move. Istvaan V is the place where all the traitors meet and put the final plans into action. If the 3 original traitor legions head straight for Terra and the other Legions attack piecemeal then I don't think it would have been successful (just like the story now )

Food for thought: The loyalist/traitor ground war on Isstvan III has only existed since the Horus Heresy Collectible Card Game in 2003, prior to that Horus simply virus bombed the planet to get it out of way.. then set up shop on Isstvan V.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

AFAIK, Isstvan V was the plan all along. The plan was however to have the Iron Hands side with Horus as well.

Yeah, I didn't want to outright say this as from the thread it seemed that some thought the dropsite massacre was a by product of the delay at Istvaan 3 and not an initial plan. Everything was a plan where Horus was involved.

Further to my post then I will say that if Istvaan 3 had gone according to plan, no Eisenstein and no angry Angron, the Warmaster still would have instigated the dropsite massacre, but it would have been more on his terms. The difference here though would be that each of the traitor Legions involved in the Istvaan 3 atrocity would still have been largely intact, though diminished due to the loyalists being destroyed. Istvaan V would have had a worse outcome for the 3 loyalists legions as they would have suffered even more casualties, if not being totally destroyed.

I think that Horus wanted Fulgrim to bring Ferrus to his cause, but I think, being the Warmaster, Horus had the notion that Ferrus wouldn't join him. He bargained for Ferrus anger at the betrayal which played totally into Horus hands and the Loyalists were a Primarch down.

I think heading straight to Terra would have been the wrong move. Istvaan V is the place where all the traitors meet and put the final plans into action. If the 3 original traitor legions head straight for Terra and the other Legions attack piecemeal then I don't think it would have been successful (just like the story now )

I think it was mentioned in Extermination that Alpharius may actually have been the one who planned the Dropsite Massacre, not Horus. IIRC, it doesn't state it outright, just that it reeks of the Alpha Legion.

 ChazSexington wrote:

I think it was mentioned in Extermination that Alpharius may actually have been the one who planned the Dropsite Massacre, not Horus. IIRC, it doesn't state it outright, just that it reeks of the Alpha Legion.

The IA article on the Alphas says that its likely that Horus and Alpharius thought of the idea together, so I guess Horus shouldn't get all the credit.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

I think it was mentioned in Extermination that Alpharius may actually have been the one who planned the Dropsite Massacre, not Horus. IIRC, it doesn't state it outright, just that it reeks of the Alpha Legion.

The IA article on the Alphas says that its likely that Horus and Alpharius thought of the idea together, so I guess Horus shouldn't get all the credit.

That's probably where I got it from, cheers for the correction

 ChazSexington wrote:

That's probably where I got it from, cheers for the correction

No correction Chaz, It's possibly in both. The good thing about Bligh is that he does take into consideration the established stuff and does appear to use the IA articles as a source. It's why I prefer the FW in a lot of regards as they don't go off mark and keep true.

Horus' greatest ability was utilising his own Legion and his brothers' to the greatest ability because of the relationship he had with them, which is what made him a perfect candidate for Warmaster. If Dorn, for example, had asked Perturabo to smash open the Imperial Palace, probably have been refused and told to go to Hell.

Horus' ability was to get Alpharius to help plan the sneak backstabbing Massecre, Perturabo to smash open the Palace, Lorgar (who had a massive Legion) to hold up the Ultras (the biggest) as he had the numbers and the motive to do so, Angron to be first into the breach at Terra and help ransack Ultramar, convince Russ that Magnus needed killing, playing off Russ' obediance and dislike towards Psykers and Magnus, using Fulgrim to take on the Iron Hands (depravity vs pure rage, but pure rage can be tempered by nostalgia and loyalty to former friends), abusing Sanguinius trust to get him to Signus Prime, the Death Guard and Night Lords to harry the surrounding regions.

So yeah, he probably collabed with Alphy to plan the Massecre, and he likely got the idea of Istvaan III from Fulgrim.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
He would have moved with much more speed than he did. He was tied up for months with Saul Tarvitz, Loken, and Torgaddon. Those extra months, plus the slower reaction time from the Loyalists if the Eisenstein hadn't made it away, would probably have swung it for him.

By the way, it really put the Emperor and the rest of loyal forces in the galaxy, in a really bad light - Horus massacres hundreds of loyal Legionares for months, and the rest of the Galaxy has no fething clue...

It doesn't. The galaxy is a big place, and communication is slow and unreliable. It is not like they have galaxywide mobile networks or internet in 40k... How was the Emperor supposed to find out? Read it on Twitter?

The strongest psyker in the galaxy couldn't detect so many of his loyal sons dying? Ok...

Then again he did not detect the warp stench on Erebus and Kor Phaeron, so maybe he's not as good as we think he is.

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
He would have moved with much more speed than he did. He was tied up for months with Saul Tarvitz, Loken, and Torgaddon. Those extra months, plus the slower reaction time from the Loyalists if the Eisenstein hadn't made it away, would probably have swung it for him.

By the way, it really put the Emperor and the rest of loyal forces in the galaxy, in a really bad light - Horus massacres hundreds of loyal Legionares for months, and the rest of the Galaxy has no fething clue...

It doesn't. The galaxy is a big place, and communication is slow and unreliable. It is not like they have galaxywide mobile networks or internet in 40k... How was the Emperor supposed to find out? Read it on Twitter?

The strongest psyker in the galaxy couldn't detect so many of his loyal sons dying? Ok...

Then again he did not detect the warp stench on Erebus and Kor Phaeron, so maybe he's not as good as we think he is.

Maybe he isn't constantly scanning the galaxy for signs of his warriors dying? He left the war to Horus, its no longer his concern. For all his knowledge it was another Ullanor sized engagement and casualties on both sides. Its also possible he closes off his mind when not actively looking. if he left himself open to constant scanning with his power he could short circuit himself due to inflood of all this energy and information. Erebus and Kor Phaeron? He seems to trust him Legions entirely, I doubt he's even considered their corruption.
Or there's the theory that he knew everything all along and he had the plan to die and be reborn stronger (and without the traitor Legions), except his deification spoilt this as they were unwilling to let him die, which is why he originally tried to burn that idea from Lorgar's thought process.

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

The strongest psyker in the galaxy couldn't detect so many of his loyal sons dying? Ok...

Then again he did not detect the warp stench on Erebus and Kor Phaeron, so maybe he's not as good as we think he is.

Or it was part of his grand scheme to become a God

Horus' original plan was:

A.) Wipe out his own loyalists at Isstvan III
B.) Dash to Terra and take it before anyone knows the wiser
C.) Deal with the remaining loyalist legions thereafter

Horus' plan when Isstvan III became a quagmire was:

A.) Defeat loyalists on Isstvan III
B.) Set the trap at Isstvan V, destroy Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Salamanders (Iron Hands were originally meant to be allies)
C.) Move on Terra while his Mechanicum allies take Mars for him
D.) Manipulate Russ into destroying the Thousand Sons, or use the incident to recruit them
E.) Have Word Bearers destroy Ultramarines and set off ruinstorm to feth with loyalist travel.
F.) Have Alpha Legion destroy Space Wolves
G.) Have White Scars join
H.) Have Blood Angels destroyed at Signus Prime (Erebus/Chaos Gods wanted them CONVERTED, Horus wanted them DESTROYED)
I.) Have Night Lords lead Dark Angels into the Eastern Fringe on a wild goose chase
J.) Take Terra with Sons of Horus, World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Thousand Sons/White Scars (if converted) from only the Imperial Fists

Had his plans gone correctly.... The Iron hands would have lead the charge to terra, leaving half the imperium in ruin, Horus would take the lead of the imperium, his own personal loathing would lead to him wiping out the human race, destroying the chaos gods... At least that's what the cabal believed.