Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So quick question, with certain models abilities such as the Masques dance of dreaming it states "untill the Masques next shooting phase subtract 5 from the target units ballistic skill to a minimum of 1" now this is relatively straightforward but when units such as a Tau pathfinders with markerlight expend a markerlight to increase the ballistic skill by 1 does it do so after the Masques ability, making them BS2 or is the masques ability an ongoing effect meaning you would need to expend multiple markerlights and raise the pathfinders ballistic skill to 7 to begin to overcome the -5 debuff.

I personally vote the latter, as I see both markerlight and the masques dance as constant effects throughout the phase rather than the dance only effecting the base stats.

Reavas wrote:
So quick question, with certain models abilities such as the Masques dance of dreaming it states "untill the Masques next shooting phase subtract 5 from the target units ballistic skill to a minimum of 1" now this is relatively straightforward but when units such as a Tau pathfinders with markerlight expend a markerlight to increase the ballistic skill by 1 does it do so after the Masques ability, making them BS2 or is the masques ability an ongoing effect meaning you would need to expend multiple markerlights and raise the pathfinders ballistic skill to 7 to begin to overcome the -5 debuff.

I personally vote the latter, as I see both markerlight and the masques dance as constant effects throughout the phase rather than the dance only effecting the base stats.

All additions and subtractions happen, then if it is under 1, you bring it up to 1.

Deleted. Just dont want to get into this.

Special rules are applied, in whole, when they are used.

The -5, min 1 bs sets the unit to bs1; which the markerlight hits can then freely raise.

Does the BRB offer guidance on whether to perform addition or subtraction modifiers first? If not, I'd say it's up to the player whose turn it is. If I were the Tau player and it was my turn, I'd apply the -5 first, bringing BS down to 1 and then apply the +1. If this was during Overwatch, the Eldar player would apply the +1 and then the -5 for a result of BS1. This wouldn't be the first time that a rules interaction has a different result depending on whose turn it is.

Realistically, how I'd play it is that both effects apply at the same time... so you'd basically say (-5 and +1) -4, to a minimum of 1. This isn't rules supported, but I think it's the fair thing to do.

Exactly as Kriswall states it. The rules don't say to apply both simultaneously. It just says that these attributes can't be reduced below 1. Given that the order of operations in GW's book aren't "real math", but are rather a "game mechanic", we also cannot assume that the real math answer applies. The only direction we're given is that if the order that something applies in matters, the player whose turn it is gets to decide.


That said, Kriswall is also exactly correct. To me, it feels obvious that the intention should be that the semantics of this wording shouldn't be picked apart, and that the end result should be to apply both continuously, meaning that you'll need to spend 5 markerlights to get rid of the full penalty and bring you back up to your normal BS.

I agree with Kriswall and Yarium, a Tau player would really have to kick up a storm to argue against such a continuous effect. That being said I imagine there are modifiers out there that markerlights and other buffs do go past. But considering both effects I side with The Masque.

As already stated, the player who's turn it is decides the order of application. So bs2 for the tau shooting phase (with 1 marker used) or bs -4 (so 1) for the eldar assault phase. Or if a suit with EWO uses the markers fired by a drone net vx1-0 for intercept

Bobug wrote:
As already stated, the player who's turn it is decides the order of application. So bs2 for the tau shooting phase (with 1 marker used) or bs -4 (so 1) for the eldar assault phase. Or if a suit with EWO uses the markers fired by a drone net vx1-0 for intercept

That only applies when two actions are trying to be done at the same time. This is just doing math and using the rules for applying multipliers

Today's Necron FAQ pretty much resolves this. It said that when you have a bunch of modifiers that apply while a "can't be reduced below this number" or "can't be increased above this number" (in their case, +1's and -1's to their Resurrection Protocol saves), you total the modifiers, and apply the "can't be increased/decreased" set value AFTER all modifiers have been applied.

So, yes, Kriswall & I's answers are the actual, factual, RAI.

 Yarium wrote:
Today's Necron FAQ pretty much resolves this. It said that when you have a bunch of modifiers that apply while a "can't be reduced below this number" or "can't be increased above this number" (in their case, +1's and -1's to their Resurrection Protocol saves), you total the modifiers, and apply the "can't be increased/decreased" set value AFTER all modifiers have been applied.

So, yes, Kriswall & I's answers are the actual, factual, RAI.

Just to back these guys up even further, you apply multipliers, then addition/subtraction, then set values. So you'd apply the +1 and -4 first, then if required (because the result is below 1) apply the set value of 1. Core rules. RAW.

 Yarium wrote:
Today's Necron FAQ pretty much resolves this. It said that when you have a bunch of modifiers that apply while a "can't be reduced below this number" or "can't be increased above this number" (in their case, +1's and -1's to their Resurrection Protocol saves), you total the modifiers, and apply the "can't be increased/decreased" set value AFTER all modifiers have been applied.

So, yes, Kriswall & I's answers are the actual, factual, RAI.

Those are all effects being applied at that same time though.

The Eternal Dance is done at the beginning of tha Daemons player's shooting phase, and Cage modifies the BS at that point. After this moment the effected unit's BS is x-5, to a minimum of 1(so nearly always bs1), any rules that grant a bonus to BS after this point are granting that bonus to the already modified BS of the unit.

 Yarium wrote:
Today's Necron FAQ pretty much resolves this. It said that when you have a bunch of modifiers that apply while a "can't be reduced below this number" or "can't be increased above this number" (in their case, +1's and -1's to their Resurrection Protocol saves), you total the modifiers, and apply the "can't be increased/decreased" set value AFTER all modifiers have been applied.

So, yes, Kriswall & I's answers are the actual, factual, RAI.

Does this also set a precedent that a -1 to cover saves wouldn't help you against a ghostkeel at >12".
They have stealth + shrouded which is 1+2, their special rule then doubles the bonus from stealth and shrouded to a total of +6. -1 to cover is a total of +5 to cover saves which is still 2+ out in the open.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
Today's Necron FAQ pretty much resolves this. It said that when you have a bunch of modifiers that apply while a "can't be reduced below this number" or "can't be increased above this number" (in their case, +1's and -1's to their Resurrection Protocol saves), you total the modifiers, and apply the "can't be increased/decreased" set value AFTER all modifiers have been applied.

So, yes, Kriswall & I's answers are the actual, factual, RAI.

Those are all effects being applied at that same time though.

The Eternal Dance is done at the beginning of tha Daemons player's shooting phase, and Cage modifies the BS at that point. After this moment the effected unit's BS is x-5, to a minimum of 1(so nearly always bs1), any rules that grant a bonus to BS after this point are granting that bonus to the already modified BS of the unit.

First off, I was stating the RAI. In fact, our responses took the time to point out how the RAW might be different from the RAI, but we said "hey, they're doing it this way for this, so they probably mean for it this way everywhere".

Secondly, you've kind of said two things:

"Those are all effects being applied at the same time though," but your next sentence is saying how there's an order, with one being in the shooting phase, and another occurring later. It's going to be one or the other, but as far as we can tell, all effects are in effect at all times, and thus there is no "order" to them outside of what GW has told us (double/halve, then add/subtract, then set). Whittlesey40's response above points out that this is then saying that at all times, if you want to know a model's stats, you proceed in this order and ignore the "if lower than X" part of the rules until that layer is applied.

So, if the Cage is active, then at any point that you check BS after that, you'd say "this model's BS, minus 5, if lower than 1 set to 1 or if higher than 10 set tot 10". It doesn't matter that BS values can't be lower than 1, because that is a "setting" mechanic, which we're told to apply after ones that add or subtract.

Toss in using 6 markerlights to add +6BS, and you have "this model's BS, minus 5, plus 6, if lower than 1 set to 1 or if higher than 10 set to 10". This is the same as "this model's BS, plus 6, minus 5, if lower than 1 set to 1 or if higher than 10 set to 10"

As such, whether one happens before the other doesn't matter. The rules are actually backing up the Necron Codex FAQ.

lusciifi wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
Today's Necron FAQ pretty much resolves this. It said that when you have a bunch of modifiers that apply while a "can't be reduced below this number" or "can't be increased above this number" (in their case, +1's and -1's to their Resurrection Protocol saves), you total the modifiers, and apply the "can't be increased/decreased" set value AFTER all modifiers have been applied.

So, yes, Kriswall & I's answers are the actual, factual, RAI.

Does this also set a precedent that a -1 to cover saves wouldn't help you against a ghostkeel at >12".
They have stealth + shrouded which is 1+2, their special rule then doubles the bonus from stealth and shrouded to a total of +6. -1 to cover is a total of +5 to cover saves which is still 2+ out in the open.

He is actually misrepresenting what the FAQ said, and the situation that was involved in the question.

The Question was about a Decurion, Cryptek, and Instant Death.

The Answer begins with: The Final result may never be improved beyond 4+; but that is exactly what Reanimation Protocols says anyways. All the answer really says is to do the math and apply the results(the math comes down to a simple +1; which is within Reanimation Protocols' limits anyways).

Not that any of that matters because all of the modifiers involved here only apply when the wound is suffered(so all the modifiers are placed simultaneously).

This is not the case for Cage, which applies a modifier, and then the modified characteristic gets modified again at a later point(whether it is via markerlight, or Dev Sgt sharing targeting info).

lusciifi wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
Today's Necron FAQ pretty much resolves this. It said that when you have a bunch of modifiers that apply while a "can't be reduced below this number" or "can't be increased above this number" (in their case, +1's and -1's to their Resurrection Protocol saves), you total the modifiers, and apply the "can't be increased/decreased" set value AFTER all modifiers have been applied.

So, yes, Kriswall & I's answers are the actual, factual, RAI.

Does this also set a precedent that a -1 to cover saves wouldn't help you against a ghostkeel at >12".
They have stealth + shrouded which is 1+2, their special rule then doubles the bonus from stealth and shrouded to a total of +6. -1 to cover is a total of +5 to cover saves which is still 2+ out in the open.

Exactly. The math can bring you below the minimum, but if it does the last modifier is setting it to the minimum. You do not use the set modifier at any point before that while calculating what a value would be in 40k.

I think my thread was aptly named

This reminds me of an old WHFB spell that would subtract -3 Str to an enemy unit.

Now, playing silly RAW, -(-3)=+3 so this would actually increase the Str!

This didn't make it useless. It was actually really good at killing warmachines. Why? Because warmachines have a str of '-', which the rules explained was another way of saying '0'. Another rule told us if a model's S, T or W got lowered to 0 it would be removed as a casualty.

As such, you would cast this 'subtract -3 S' spell on an enemy unit with no strength (raising it to str 3), then on ending the spell the model's str would be reduced to 0, thus causing the model to be removed from the game.

 Yarium wrote:

lusciifi wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
Today's Necron FAQ pretty much resolves this. It said that when you have a bunch of modifiers that apply while a "can't be reduced below this number" or "can't be increased above this number" (in their case, +1's and -1's to their Resurrection Protocol saves), you total the modifiers, and apply the "can't be increased/decreased" set value AFTER all modifiers have been applied.

So, yes, Kriswall & I's answers are the actual, factual, RAI.

Does this also set a precedent that a -1 to cover saves wouldn't help you against a ghostkeel at >12".
They have stealth + shrouded which is 1+2, their special rule then doubles the bonus from stealth and shrouded to a total of +6. -1 to cover is a total of +5 to cover saves which is still 2+ out in the open.

Exactly. The math can bring you below the minimum, but if it does the last modifier is setting it to the minimum. You do not use the set modifier at any point before that while calculating what a value would be in 40k.

They are 2 completely different situations (cage and RP/Cover) Cage is a characteristic modifier and follows the multiple modifiers rules; RP and cover saves are not characteristics.

Also RP specifically states in its rule that no special rules can ever bring it to better than 4+.

Cage simply says that the negative modifier cannot bring bs below 1(which the characteristic rules do say that bs can be brought to 0)

Not sure what you're arguing here. The fact that they have different minimums doesn't change the argument.

In each situation there is a minimum possible value. This is treated as setting that value to the minimum if, after the other non-setting modifiers, the value would be less than the minimum.

If you calculate a modifier after setting the value, you have performed the order wrong. So if you use the Cage, and it lowers the BS to 1, you do not then start modifying BS1 as its new BS. You modify their original BS, and include the Cage on THAT modifier. The fact that it was brought down to 1 earlier has no bearing. The fact that it can bring it to a minimum of 1 is a "setting" effect, meaning it's applied after all the additions and subtractions.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

The Answer begins with: The Final result may never be improved beyond 4+; but that is exactly what Reanimation Protocols says anyways. All the answer really says is to do the math and apply the results(the math comes down to a simple +1; which is within Reanimation Protocols' limits anyways).

Not that any of that matters because all of the modifiers involved here only apply when the wound is suffered(so all the modifiers are placed simultaneously).

This is not the case for Cage, which applies a modifier, and then the modified characteristic gets modified again at a later point(whether it is via markerlight, or Dev Sgt sharing targeting info).

It really shouldn't matter that the second modifier is applied later, at the time you would use the stat being modified, you'd apply all the modifiers as per how they state in the modifiers page, as they tell you to look at all the modifiers. You have two modifiers active at that time, not just one that's treateed as a fait accompli and then a second modifier that's treated completely separately going through the modifier application process separately. If an ongoing effect to reduce strength for a turn was put on someone and they used a powerfist, according to the modifiers rule you'd still apply the multiplier before the subtraction. For an addition and subtraction, you'd follow the normal process of applying both when both are in effect. The rules on modifiers don't say anything about differentiating them based on the time they're applied.

 doctortom wrote:
It really shouldn't matter that the second modifier is applied later, at the time you would use the stat being modified, you'd apply all the modifiers as per how they state in the modifiers page, as they tell you to look at all the modifiers. You have two modifiers active at that time, not just one that's treateed as a fait accompli and then a second modifier that's treated completely separately going through the modifier application process separately. If an ongoing effect to reduce strength for a turn was put on someone and they used a powerfist, according to the modifiers rule you'd still apply the multiplier before the subtraction. For an addition and subtraction, you'd follow the normal process of applying both when both are in effect. The rules on modifiers don't say anything about differentiating them based on the time they're applied.

Just to add some confusion to this, this gets thrown off if the stat is to change the baseline stat being used such as what the Space Wolf Draft FAQ implies with the Thunderwolf Cavalry mount.

But how to fully recognize this without it specifically stating as such is never explained.