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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/22 16:46:27
Subject: The Ardentus Argentum: Semi-CSM Mercenary Legion, need lore help
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Fresh-Faced New User
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I'm not sure if this is the best place for this stuff, but let's go:
The Ardentus Argentum (so called because they feel strongly about stuff and are silver) are my new homebrew chapter/legion. Their story is somewhat similar to the Celestial Lions - they saw the Inquisition do gak and were all like 'nope, that's bad, we ain't doing dat shiz' and proceeded to get uber-rekt by the Inquistor's battleships. The only way to escape complete destruction of the chapter was to flee into the warp. It didn't go so well and even more of them got nommed/rip'n'torn/raped/mutated/AIDSed and so not that many are left. Those that are left are in fact loyal to the emperor. Sort of. They don't revere him as the godly figure that the Ecclesiarchy hype him up to be, but do share in his original vision of peace across the galaxy, while not being quite so anti-xenos and anti-mutant. They also believe that rather than exterminating heretics, rehab programs might be better solutions. BUT. And it's a big one, in order to successfully survive the terrors of the warp, they did sort of have to turn themselves to Chaos a little bit. And while they don't want the galaxy to burn or to be made a servant of one of the Dark Gods, the marines do realise that doing so is the only way they can survive and potentially grow to work against Chaos in the future, and that they need all the help they can get in combat after being slaughtered and gribblied by Inquistion and Daemons alike. They show up every now and then to aid Imperial forces againsttheir foes (and quickly run away before they get attacked), but also assist the Tau, Eldar, AdMech and sometimes Orks against Chaos forces, Necrons, Tyranids and even other Astartes, and so are branded as a traitor legion by most. They recruit mostly from worlds they defend, who see their non-radical, everone-be-nice approach to be way better than Imperial rule/mass slaughter by Chaos forces, but also take on stragglers and outcasts of both loyalist and traitor legions, provided they aren't too extreme.
Overall these guys are sort of like Malal Marines + Reasonable Marines? I guess? Other stuff includes the fact that because they were quite open and reasonable and not so purge-mad as most other chapters, they are a damn sight friendlier towards alien races, and the chapter master is such a shrewd diplomat/ they sometimes just act as mercenaries to Tau, Eldar and Admech, they treat all ally rankings on the chart as being one better (except 'Nids), and because they've all been taught to get along, not all models in a unit must bear the same mark. Two things I'm not sure on though are thus:
1. Champions with Marks/ marked units in general: These guys aren't Chaos worshipers that want a new dawn of Heresy in the galaxy. They don't want everything to burn. However I do want some of them to be dedicated somewhat to the Dark Gods. I've got an idea for one sergeant who got so angry over badly treated some people were and how some space marines just didn't care about casualties, even civilians, and at one point ended up defending such innocents so wrathfully that Khorne saw him and went 'damn, I like this guy' and gave him a mark that now turns this guy into a bloodthirsty animal in combat, even if he himself doesn't want the 'gift'. Also, maybe Tzeentch said 'bet I can show some cool magic stuff' and some guys just went along with it but how do I justify people having marks of Nurgle and Slaanesh? And how do I generally explain the fact that these guys had to turn to semi-Chaos in the first place?
2. Cultists: These guys make a lot of use of 'cultists', as they go 'hey! These guys who saved us offer an actually pretty decent standard of living and aren't evil pricks like 90% of everyone else! Let's go side up with them!' Now these guys aren't strictly cultists in the normal sense, but that's what they approximate in the codex. As I write this the more I think it should go in the modelling forums but while we're here let's do it - the current GW cultist models are a bit too mad and evil for me, and I don't think the majority of their recruits are going to be guardsmen, so I'm either looking for a convincing lore-friendly reason why the counts-as-cultists would have to wear the stuff the cultist models do now, which is just unnecessary for essentially average hive dwellers, or suggest any not-that-chaosy, not-imperial-guardsmen models that could be used for my not-cultists-but-whatever cultists?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/22 16:59:16
Subject: The Ardentus Argentum: Semi-CSM Mercenary Legion, need lore help
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Confessor Of Sins
WA, USA
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Honestly, and I mean this as constructive as possible...but your lore has a LOT of problems.
First, and foremost, take some time to respect your writing. Seriously, nothing kills my interest or curiosity more than lines like "uber rekt", "AIDSed" and so on. It's juvenile and really nowhere near as funny as you might think it is.
Next up, they are blazingly obvious Mary Sue chapter and lore-breaking on a whole lot of levels. But I have some time and I can point out a lot of specific examples.
First, they are nice Marines who somehow just like everyone. How? Why? To become a Space Marine, part of the process is a whole lot of hypno-indoctrination. Plus, they come from the Imperium, a place where xenophobia is practically the lifeblood of survival. There's no logical place where an entire chapter just doesn't think that. Second of all, why would these xenos like them as well? That makes no sense either, especially when it comes to someone like Orks.
Second, your whole point on Champions is terrible. Khorne is not going to give a gift for someone not killing people. If he does, your sergeant is going to be diving in to slaughter those civilians himself. This reeks of Mary Sue-ism where you can have all the benefits and none of the downsides of Chaos. If you get the attention of the Dark Gods, you are cursed. Period. That whole "Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, only that it does flow" thing happens. The same goes for your really BAD explanation for Tzeentch and I imagine it will be much the same for Slaanesh and Nurge. The bottom line is that you don't go "semi" Chaos. You are either corrupt or not. The Chaos gods do not abide someone dabbling, and they will ensnare you to their schemes the instant they can. If your guys have Marks of Chaos, they are pure Chaos. End of discussion.
As far as your cultists point, frankly, your lore is all over the place it is hard to tell what you actually want. Your best bet I think is guardsmen, .
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Ouze wrote:
Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/22 18:06:53
Subject: Re:The Ardentus Argentum: Semi-CSM Mercenary Legion, need lore help
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Fresh-Faced New User
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One of Khorne's major things is honourable combat, not the mindless slaughter of innocents. He honours those who fight worthy opponents, and not civilians that can't fight back. Plus, this is just the start of their potential spiral down to Chaos. That sergeant fought with such fervent rage that Khorne thought he could make something of him in the future. This is just the beginning. He could lose control fully, start slaughtering the innocents he once vowed to protect and spill so much blood he reaches ascension. Or something.
Likewise, Tzeentch is the master of just as planned. A little dabbling here and there, and before you know it, whoops! New traitor warband entirely devoted to the destruction of any who go against what they believe the Emperor's true will.
As for the xenos love, it's possible to put it down to a fault in their gene-seed altering or damaging their Catalepsian Node, making them less susceptible to brainwashing techniques employed by the Imperium; a first-hand encounter with an alien race that makes them go 'huh guess they're not so bad'; a chapter master that is so fear-inspiring or persuasive that all others have no choice but to accept his view; maybe they will do whatever they believe is necessary to carry out the true will of the Emperor; or maybe they've been on too many long campaigns assisting radical inquisitors.
As for liking them back, the Tau are notorious for being nice and bringing whomever so wishes into their Empire. The Eldar could have been more than happy to ally up in order to take down a more pressing threat like Daemons or Tyranids, and grudgingly accept negotiations afterwards. Not to mention, they could act as mercenaries for Eldar who wish to remain untangled from the main web of events, and AdMech explorators low on forces or that need units more knowledgeable of the region, perhaps. As for Orks, both the Blood Axes and Freebootas are known to act as mercs themselves, and could have been open to trading for assistance; perhaps the leader of the marines proved himself in combat against the warboss and made use of his new leverage; or it could just be that they happened to both be there at the same time and just not fight each other after, potentially due to a swift retreat. Or shrewd diplomats from the marines with massive persuasive charisma and charm.
'A Mary Sue is a character that is a shameless self-insert, poorly developed, without flaws and stupidly overpowered.'
Self-insert: It's my own chapter, my own dudes. If I want them to be like me, they can. I feel no shame, and really don't care much about this one.
Poorly-developed: The lore I wrote previously is a very early and rough draft. Nothing is well-developed instantly, and that is why I'm posting this stuff here, because I don't want them to just have cultists that aren't actually cultists but wear the cultist gear because of reasons. And like I said, this stuff is early. using the term 'uber-rekt' is just my placeholder for the description of the brutal massacre of most of their fleet in an epic space battle that is yet to be written.
Without flaws: Made enemies with the entire Imperium, very low number of actual marines, little access to new technology, often don't have the force to compete if diplomacy fails, no definite allies to call on, tainted by Chaos, often make bad decisions due to steadfast nature, literally no proper allies at all - Imperium hate them, they hate Chaos factions, DEldar, 'Nids and Necrons, Eldar are too stuck-up to help, Tau will only help if they join their Empire, AdMech are stingy, Orks don't care, no home planet to gather resources from,being torn apart by Chaos, can't recruit properly, no steady supplies. Definitely not flawless.
Overpowered: Little fleet strength, few Astartes, little new technology, being torn apart by Chaos etc.
These guys are not Mary Sues. Celestial Lions held the similar 'maybe don't be a dick' views and got shot up too. Lamentors share the same 'persevere against all odds, incorruptible force' thing, and things are only getting worse for them, same as the Ardentus who keep getting themselves into worse situations are, like the others, are not Mary Sues.
Lastly, don't hate on the style of writing. It's a rough draft, it's informal, and if you don't like it, fine, but quite frankly I write for myself and don't hold too much value as to whether it kills your interest or not.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/22 22:41:49
Subject: Re:The Ardentus Argentum: Semi-CSM Mercenary Legion, need lore help
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Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit
In the Warp, getting trolled by Tactical_Spam, AKA TZEENTCH INCARNATE
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I think the biggest problem is that your fluff isn't exactly consistent. I'll try to address the points that stick out to me in what follows:
1) Sharing the Emperor's ideals: I get that you want them to be more "peaceful" than normal Marines but saying that they follow the "Emperor's ideals" by doing so is rather silly. The Emperor's goal was always to fully rid the galaxy of the Xenos and the Mutant, who had enslaved and preyed on humanity for millennia. Now you could say that your Marines are more tolerant towards Abhumans and other mutated humans, because of their beliefs or ideals, and that'd be totally fine.
2) Working with Xenos / As mercenaries: This is a bit of a stretch, IMO. It's rare for Xenos to ally themselves with the Imperials, and especially with Space Marines, seeing as their entire job is murdering the gak out of said Xenos. Now, maybe a Tau colony/fleet/whatever under attack would accept their aid, but that would be a temporary alliance at best, and the Eldar wouldn't touch anything that's been in contact with the Warp with a planet-sized stick. And Orks are simply too war-obsessed to form any kind of lasting cooperation with anyway.
3) Semi-accepting the taint of Chaos: No. Just no. You can't be 'somewhat' dedicated to the Dark Gods. One dude being angry isn't going to attract the attention of Khorne, even if said person has "potential". What could work is going for a Relictors-style plot: desperate to fight their foes, they start using Chaos-tainted weaponry or allow growth of mutations but slowly begin to succumb to the influence of the Dark Gods that comes with them. There's only a few of them left, and they lose more and more Marines to insanity, leading many of them to become paranoid and delusional as they cling to their faith in the Emperor. The ones who give in more and more to Chaos are watched closely by their brothers and are executed when they go too far, if it isn't too late by then...
4) Rehab for heretics: I'm afraid there isn't any treatment for heresy. Also, I can't read that sentence without laughing. Imagine Kharn the Betrayer lying on a psychologist's couch, muttering his praise to Khorne while the psychologist asks "Yes, but why do you want to Kill, Maim and Burn?"
5) Chapter Master being a shrewd diplomat: This could work if you don't make it sound like he's the most charismatic bastard in the entire galaxy. I mean, some of the Primarchs were also very charismatic diplomatically-inclined people but even they couldn't convince all the Xenos to like them, much less convince them to be allies. Also, it's highly implausible that they've been taught to "get along with everyone", unless they hail from the CareBears planet.
6) Recruiting cultists from saved people: This is a bit unlikely, because most Imperials won't trust them for having come in contact with Chaos, and the others probably have better things to do then follow a random group of Space Marines.
So, in short; if you really want them to be semi-heretics, go for the Renegade route where they use Chaos artefacts, weapons and "gifts" to help themselves, whilst also going more insane because of it. Their faith will break eventually, if they want to or not.
As for the cultists, maybe you could check out the WHFB line. You could convert some Flagellants into rescued Imperials monks, or some Empire footsoldiers into Knight World troopers who lost their homeworld.
Hope this helps. Also, perhaps this should be in the Fiction section?
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Tactical_Spam: Ezra is fighting reality right now.
War Kitten: Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
War Kitten: Ezra can steal reality
Kharne the Befriender:Took him seven years but he got it wrangled down
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/23 07:40:58
Subject: The Ardentus Argentum: Semi-CSM Mercenary Legion, need lore help
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Kinebrach-Knobbling Xeno Interrogator
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You esentially want a renegade chapter with humanistic beliefs, there is no place for humanism in the far future humanity. The renegades, even the renegades that fight for the Imperium like the Soul Drinkers, the Relictors or the Knights of Blood, are radicals.
If they contact with the warp, soon or later, they will be corrupted by the Chaos influence in a moment of desperation, like the Soul Drinkers or the Astral Claws.
If they are true Space Marines they are killing machines, not warrior philosophers that protect the good guys and only fight the bad guys.
You are creating something Mary Sue when the moral development of your characters is "we are the good ones, with neutral good alignment" but they use gifts of chaos without consequences.
The lore of the 41 millenium is not much open to humanism, but if you want to make an altruistic mothers of charity chapter at least don“t make them use chaos against chaos. The Celestial Lions confronted the Inquisition, now they are fethed. Build a better and consistent flaw to them and how they become excommunicated.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/23 08:53:36
Subject: The Ardentus Argentum: Semi-CSM Mercenary Legion, need lore help
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Krazy Grot Kutta Driva
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Feels kind of scatter-shot. There are plenty of great violinists in the world, there's also master bakers, people who speak Klingon and acrobats. If I'm at a BBQ and someone mentioned they do one of those things I'm immediately intrigued and would love to talk to them about their interesting hobby. If someone mentioned they're the world's best acrobatic baker who plays the violin while speaking Klingon I'll immediately assume they're a spanker.
Same deal here. Pick a theme and run with it, ONE theme. They're not hostile to Xenos? Interesting, tell me more. They love Xenos, Xenos love them, they trick chaos gods, outwit the Imperium always get the girl, say the funniest jokes and all have cat ears? Not interested.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/23 09:11:39
Subject: Re:The Ardentus Argentum: Semi-CSM Mercenary Legion, need lore help
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Regular Dakkanaut
Dublin
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PotatoDaemon wrote:One of Khorne's major things is honourable combat, not the mindless slaughter of innocents. He honours those who fight worthy opponents, and not civilians that can't fight back.
This is oldhammer lore for fantasy - Nowadays he's more like the tired kill,maim,burn trope.
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40k Armies :
Fantasy Armies:
DA:90SG+M-B--I+Pw40k99#--D++++A++/wWD232R++T(M)DM+
"We of the bloody thumb, salute you" - RiTides, Grandmaster of the Restic Knights |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/23 15:04:38
Subject: Re:The Ardentus Argentum: Semi-CSM Mercenary Legion, need lore help
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Confessor Of Sins
WA, USA
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PotatoDaemon wrote:One of Khorne's major things is honourable combat, not the mindless slaughter of innocents. He honours those who fight worthy opponents, and not civilians that can't fight back. Plus, this is just the start of their potential spiral down to Chaos. That sergeant fought with such fervent rage that Khorne thought he could make something of him in the future. This is just the beginning. He could lose control fully, start slaughtering the innocents he once vowed to protect and spill so much blood he reaches ascension. Or something.
That is old lore. The current Khorne is very simple. He cares not from where the blood flows. Sure he may be bestow more gifts upon those who bring in a seriously worthy kill, but to Khorne, it doesn't matter if it is a soldier, a cowering civilian or, in the case of some sects of Khorne Daemonkin, yourself it there's nobody else to kill. Honorable combat does not factor into it, slaughter does. A quote that covers it well is "Khorne is the Blood God, Lord of Rage, Taker of Skulls. He is wrath incarnate, the embodiment of a never-ending lust to dominate and destroy. It is his sole desire to drown the galaxy in a tide of slaughter, to conquer and kill every living thing until there is nothing left but spilt blood and shattered bone." The bit about honor is more about Khorne finding greater value in the skulls of those who are a good fight, but sparing innocents angers him just as well. So yeah, there's no getting around that.
Likewise, Tzeentch is the master of just as planned. A little dabbling here and there, and before you know it, whoops! New traitor warband entirely devoted to the destruction of any who go against what they believe the Emperor's true will.
And actually this part isn't that bad. This has potential to be worked with. But you need to keep in mind the nature of corruption, as well as the complexity of Tzeentch. Once you start 'dabbling', as you put it, you're doing Tzeentch's work and you're on the road to corruption. You may not know it yet, or even be aware if it (talking from the perspective of a Marine here), but you are doing exactly what Tzeentch wants you to do, and now that he's got you dancing on his puppet strings, that's your lot.
As for the xenos love, it's possible to put it down to a fault in their gene-seed altering or damaging their Catalepsian Node, making them less susceptible to brainwashing techniques employed by the Imperium; a first-hand encounter with an alien race that makes them go 'huh guess they're not so bad'; a chapter master that is so fear-inspiring or persuasive that all others have no choice but to accept his view; maybe they will do whatever they believe is necessary to carry out the true will of the Emperor; or maybe they've been on too many long campaigns assisting radical inquisitors.
The true will of the Emperor with regard to xenos was their extermination. To pull another quote here on the Emperor, this time regarding his thoughts to xenos, "as almost all intelligent alien species encountered by Mankind had either proven to be irrevocably hostile to humanity or presented a future threat to human dominance and exploitation of the galaxy, xenos species were generally to be exterminated outright if they presented the slightest threat or obstacle to the Imperium." And this lines up with what we see in the Imperium today. Any xenos race with any military capacity is a threat to the Imperium and its growth, and the Emperor would take one look at it and order their destruction, to prevent that race from ever acting on its strength. Remember that the Sol system the Emperor came from had parts under xenos enslavement, there's no diplomacy going on.
As for liking them back, the Tau are notorious for being nice and bringing whomever so wishes into their Empire. The Eldar could have been more than happy to ally up in order to take down a more pressing threat like Daemons or Tyranids, and grudgingly accept negotiations afterwards. Not to mention, they could act as mercenaries for Eldar who wish to remain untangled from the main web of events, and AdMech explorators low on forces or that need units more knowledgeable of the region, perhaps. As for Orks, both the Blood Axes and Freebootas are known to act as mercs themselves, and could have been open to trading for assistance; perhaps the leader of the marines proved himself in combat against the warboss and made use of his new leverage; or it could just be that they happened to both be there at the same time and just not fight each other after, potentially due to a swift retreat. Or shrewd diplomats from the marines with massive persuasive charisma and charm.
Some Mary Sue points here that your chapter master is so good that he can somehow pull all this off...
And your view is pretty shortsighted and doesn't reflect the actual mindset of any of those races at all. Tau accept allies, and are the most willing to negotiate yes, but as you also said, their goal is expansion and annexation. They are not going to just tolerate the Mary Sue chapter for long before they start getting pretty insistent about them joining up. Same with Eldar, they do not view humanity or Marines with respect, they would view them as a means to an end and incredibly disposable. You're not in an alliance with Eldar, you are in a position where they can use you. Eldar would gladly throw your chapter into the Eye of Terror if it bought the lives of a Guardian squad. And as far as Orks, what you are forgetting is that most of the time those mercenary Orks also have a habit of turning to their employers and saying "hey, thanks for the work, now give us more guns or we'll attack you".
Poorly-developed: The lore I wrote previously is a very early and rough draft. Nothing is well-developed instantly, and that is why I'm posting this stuff here, because I don't want them to just have cultists that aren't actually cultists but wear the cultist gear because of reasons. And like I said, this stuff is early. using the term 'uber-rekt' is just my placeholder for the description of the brutal massacre of most of their fleet in an epic space battle that is yet to be written.
Which strikes me as strange given how very defensive you're getting about feedback. You don't seem all that interested in changing anything, just justifying what you have and getting praise for it.
Without flaws: Made enemies with the entire Imperium, very low number of actual marines, little access to new technology, often don't have the force to compete if diplomacy fails, no definite allies to call on, tainted by Chaos, often make bad decisions due to steadfast nature, literally no proper allies at all - Imperium hate them, they hate Chaos factions, DEldar, 'Nids and Necrons, Eldar are too stuck-up to help, Tau will only help if they join their Empire, AdMech are stingy, Orks don't care, no home planet to gather resources from,being torn apart by Chaos, can't recruit properly, no steady supplies. Definitely not flawless.
Weren't you JUST saying how easily your Chapter Master could make friends with other races? How he can use his combat skill as leverage against an Ork Warboss? And is a cunning and shrewd diplomat and all that guff? Besides, from a writing standpoint, this isn't much of a flaw and let me explain why. What does this flaw actually DO to your Chapter in a storytelling perspective? Honestly, not a whole lot, they just are too cool to fall in place with other more similar parts. Besides, "having no friends" does not give any room for development or growth, which is what a flaw should do. These are not like kryptonite where the flaw is how you kill them. Flaws are supposed to be the failings and shortcomings that are deeper into the personality of your character (your chapter being a character in this perspective) that motivate growth, generate internal struggle and force the character to change. Having a bunch of angry people is not doing that, it is just a reason for them to be standoffish.
Overpowered: Little fleet strength, few Astartes, little new technology, being torn apart by Chaos etc.
These guys are not Mary Sues. Celestial Lions held the similar 'maybe don't be a dick' views and got shot up too. Lamentors share the same 'persevere against all odds, incorruptible force' thing, and things are only getting worse for them, same as the Ardentus who keep getting themselves into worse situations are, like the others, are not Mary Sues.
Points that make them more Mary Sue than you want:
* Able to get Chaos gifts without any signs of corruption
* Impressing Chaos gods for an act that goes against their very nature
* Ability to make alliances with any race
* Following the Emperor's "true vision" without any sign of them being mistaken or misguided, they are the only right ones
* Noblebright in a grimdark setting, tone breaking
* Chapter master who can seemingly do anything well
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Ouze wrote:
Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
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