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The dreadnought's power plant (and probably some other's stuff as well) is said to be thermic reactor, but I really can't understand what the hell is this. It sounds like it should be some kind of nuclear reactor, but dreadnoughts have huge exhaust pipes which usually produce black thick clouds of smoke, so it really looks more like some kind of typical internal combustion engine... but it is, obviously, not one. Leman Russ is powered by V12, and Sentinel has some 6 cylinder engine, but dreadnought has thermic reactor.

So, what is this thing? How does it work? Maybe some links to something that can be compared to thermic reactor? Because I can't neither found nor understand what thermic reactor actually is. Thanks.

Can't tell you exactly what it is, but it's the same engine used in Rhinos, Predators, Land Raiders and Castraferrum Dreadnoughts, so it's apparently extremely versatile, interchangable and probably pretty cheap. Especially compared to the atomantic arc reactor that Contemptor Dreadnoughts have, which is extremely difficult to build and maintain.

It's mentioned as being most well known for being able to accept almost any fuel source. Compare this to the specialty Lucifer-pattern thermic reactor, which the Blood Angels keep for themselves, which is more efficient, but is said that it does not have the same variety of fuel sources that the Mars-pattern has.

jareddm wrote:
Can't tell you exactly what it is, but it's the same engine used in Rhinos, Predators, Land Raiders and Castraferrum Dreadnoughts, so it's apparently extremely versatile, interchangable and probably pretty cheap. Especially compared to the atomantic arc reactor that Contemptor Dreadnoughts have, which is extremely difficult to build and maintain.

It's mentioned as being most well known for being able to accept almost any fuel source. Compare this to the specialty Lucifer-pattern thermic reactor, which the Blood Angels keep for themselves, which is more efficient, but is said that it does not have the same variety of fuel sources that the Mars-pattern has.

Where have you got the info about Lucifer pattern?

Other then that, it was a useful post, thanks. I've never bothered to check Rhino or other pages on Rhino chassis, but all of them has "Quad MkII Adaptable Thermic Combustor Reactor", which explains why I could not find them by typing "Thermic Reactor" in Google. The word Combustor ruined it all. But now, knowing about this word, it makes things cleaner. First of all, it is definitely does not sound like a nuclear thing, which explains all those tons of black smoke. Most likely some kind of ICE, but still, if anyone knows more, I'd like to read it.

Assuming that dreadnought's 'Thermic Reactor' and Rhino's 'Quad MkII Adaptable Thermic Combustor Reactor' are less or more the same thing. Which, I hope, is true.

My expert guess in this specific case is that the "Adaptatable Thermic Reactor" is a very very 'scientific' way of saying "this thing burns promethium, very efficiently"

In short I would assume they are just Very Very efficient (compared to today's standards) Internal combustion engines. Hence the fuel tanks/jerry cans on rhinos and the exhaust stacks on Everything.

Ross_R wrote:
The dreadnought's power plant (and probably some other's stuff as well) is said to be thermic reactor, but I really can't understand what the hell is this. It sounds like it should be some kind of nuclear reactor, but dreadnoughts have huge exhaust pipes which usually produce black thick clouds of smoke, so it really looks more like some kind of typical internal combustion engine... but it is, obviously, not one. Leman Russ is powered by V12, and Sentinel has some 6 cylinder engine, but dreadnought has thermic reactor.

So, what is this thing? How does it work? Maybe some links to something that can be compared to thermic reactor? Because I can't neither found nor understand what thermic reactor actually is. Thanks.

A thermic reactor is either a thermonuclear power pack, or a bivvie for making tea. At least, that's what the techmarine in me says.

Ross_R wrote:
Where have you got the info about Lucifer pattern?

Other then that, it was a useful post, thanks. I've never bothered to check Rhino or other pages on Rhino chassis, but all of them has "Quad MkII Adaptable Thermic Combustor Reactor", which explains why I could not find them by typing "Thermic Reactor" in Google. The word Combustor ruined it all. But now, knowing about this word, it makes things cleaner. First of all, it is definitely does not sound like a nuclear thing, which explains all those tons of black smoke. Most likely some kind of ICE, but still, if anyone knows more, I'd like to read it.

Assuming that dreadnought's 'Thermic Reactor' and Rhino's 'Quad MkII Adaptable Thermic Combustor Reactor' are less or more the same thing. Which, I hope, is true.

Source for everything is Imperial Armour volume 2, second edition. A book I consider to be the most accurate and comprehensive on the subject of Astartes vehicles.

The three types of thermic combustor reactors I could find, other than the specialty Lucifer pattern, seem to be the basic model on dreadnoughts, the Rhino pattern, which seems to be modified to operate in parallel with itself, and a large, upscaled pattern found in Land Raiders.

So it's basically a glorified water boiler? o.0

EDIT: I Really shouldn't be surprised considering I have a decent knowledge of what goes on in a Nuclear Power Plant.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
My expert guess in this specific case is that the "Adaptatable Thermic Reactor" is a very very 'scientific' way of saying "this thing burns promethium, very efficiently"

In short I would assume they are just Very Very efficient (compared to today's standards) Internal combustion engines. Hence the fuel tanks/jerry cans on rhinos and the exhaust stacks on Everything.

This. It's just a fancier version of the multi-fuel engines used in most Imperial Guard vehicles.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
My expert guess in this specific case is that the "Adaptatable Thermic Reactor" is a very very 'scientific' way of saying "this thing burns promethium, very efficiently"

In short I would assume they are just Very Very efficient (compared to today's standards) Internal combustion engines. Hence the fuel tanks/jerry cans on rhinos and the exhaust stacks on Everything.

I think this is the most likely suggestion here.

Yeah, its just a combustion engine.

It is a vessel used to contain thermic (heat related) reactions. Presumably creating energy used for power (and yes I know energy cannot be created).

Thanks for the answers, everyone.

 Selym wrote:
A thermic reactor is either a thermonuclear power pack, or a bivvie for making tea. At least, that's what the techmarine in me says.

Despite the fact that 'thermic reactor' sounds very... nuclear-like, I guess all those tons of black smoke that are produced by the vehicles that are powered by it and the word 'Combustor' in 'Quad MkII Adaptable Thermic Combustor Reactor' makes me think that, in abscence of official description and explanation, this is the most reliable thought:

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
My expert guess in this specific case is that the "Adaptatable Thermic Reactor" is a very very 'scientific' way of saying "this thing burns promethium, very efficiently"

In short I would assume they are just Very Very efficient (compared to today's standards) Internal combustion engines. Hence the fuel tanks/jerry cans on rhinos and the exhaust stacks on Everything.

Also.

jareddm wrote:
Source for everything is Imperial Armour volume 2, second edition. A book I consider to be the most accurate and comprehensive on the subject of Astartes vehicles.

The three types of thermic combustor reactors I could find, other than the specialty Lucifer pattern, seem to be the basic model on dreadnoughts, the Rhino pattern, which seems to be modified to operate in parallel with itself, and a large, upscaled pattern found in Land Raiders.

Thanks for more specifcs and for the source. Gotta find myself at least a .pdf variant of this thing.

I guess, we won't get any more specifics about thermic reactors for now. Though if anyone wants to speculate about how very-very efficient ICEs should work - you're welcome.

I have an odd feeling that a "Thermic Reactor" could be a fancy sciency way to say "Internal Combustion Engine".

Not all engines are pistons though. There is a version that has a spinning center "piston" (I cannot recall its name off hand).

Then again... In theory you could have a nuclear-combustion hybrid akin to a nuclear rocket which used nuclear reactions to heat fuel and propel it. A combination of a Nuclear Rocket and perhaps a Turbine engine could not only work but also give the billowing smoke (and a howling roar or jet engine's scream).



mated with



But of course its never specified exactly.

In the end though. Its all rule of cool.

A giant robot machine with giant smoke belching smoke stacks smashing things is awesome.

That or a giant tank the size of a house wouldn't be as awesome without its exhaust billowing flames and smoke as its guns vomit death upon everything around it.

The only way to get a combustion engine that can accept anything from refined petroleum, through coal and wood, to the desiccated corpses of your enemies, as various bits of fluff have suggested, is external combustion.
Or a really good selective pre-processor but that's the exact opposite of "simple and easy to maintain" as required by the Imperium.

That is, you burn the fuel in one place and generate the motion somewhere else, connecting the two by some sort of transmission medium, in opposition to internal combustion where the burning full directly impinges on the drive surface as in reciprocating ICEs commonly found in automobiles and rotary turbines as found in tanks and aeroplanes.

Traditionally this has been some manner of boiling fluid (water for example) that is contained and directed to do work. This is in fact the common element of every coal, oil, gas, nuclear, and solar-thermal power plant we currently use.

Anyway, the thing is, and no-one knows how so far, but the Imperium has insanely efficient thermo-electric converters available, that are so cheap and easy to make they are churned out in their billions to power lasguns. Seriously, lasgun batteries are freaking magic compared to what we can do today. But that's another topic.

So here's what I think is going on: these thermic reactors a ECEs that use electricity as their working medium, by harnessing the same technology as lasgun batteries to convert heat to electric power directly. Probably the more compact and efficient ones have superior heat-sinks and insulation plus probably some auxiliary working fluid to even out heat distribution within the converter etc.


It also occurs to me that there are probably places like Knight World's where they have great castles heated by fires, that also have electricity because those great fireplaces have thermostat-electric conversion blocks for their back tiles and lining their flues.…

So... Dreadnought s are steampunk?

I have a Viking Werewolf Steampunk Walking Coffin-Of-A-Genetically-Engineered-Superhuman.

Huh.

More like freon-punk but sure.

All a reactor is (technically) is a vessel used to contain some sort of reaction. Nuclear reactors contain nuclear reactions. Chemical reactors contain chemical reactions. Thermic reactors contain thermic reactions.

Chemical reactors contain chemical reactions. Thermic reactors contain thermic reactions.

There are two kinds of "thermic" reactions. Endothermic and Exothermic. Only one of those can be used for generating power. And an Exothermic reaction (for example fire) is a chemical reaction for all intends and purposes.

Thermic reactor imo is simply a "fancy" term for a combustion device of unspecified type (when considering the artistic evidence - as exhaust pipes and fumes). The name of the IA2 Rhino engine supports this (Quad Mk II Adaptable Thermic Combustor Reactor) Realistically a combustion engine/turbing is pretty limiting on galactic scale warfare, as it requires oxygen. No oxygen -> no power. And you are not going to store the in a tank, even heavily compressed. 1kg Diesel requires ~15000 liter of air at "standard" airpressure and 15°C to burn properly.

You'd think they would just use fusion reactors instead. They can fit those things into PA backpacks, so why not in a tank?

 Ashiraya wrote:
They can fit those things into PA backpacks…

Since when?
Every bit of documentation I've seen on PA backpacks implies either a very small fission pile or, more likely given what I said above about Imperial thermo-electric materials science, a basic RTG turned up to eleven. Never once have I seen fusion power implied in power armour design.

Given what we know about the Imperial universal fuel and the smokestacks I'm going with the magic thermoelectrics theory.

I will get back to you later on this once I get back home to my codices, but I remember it being described as a 'highly-efficient sub-atomic microfusion reactor core'.

RT era PA used solar power instead, but newer lore has gone over to fusion.

Edit: A quick Google does not yield a page number (backpack power is obviously not a common debate) but the fusion power is often mentioned in what debates there are, including in past threads on Dakka. As said, I can get back to you later if you want page numbers.

 Ashiraya wrote:
...RT era PA used solar power instead, but newer lore has gone over to fusion.

...Did they have giant solar panels on the backpacks then? I don't think I've seen that one.

Note the part about 'armoured solar panels'.

I like it!

If I were inclined to make a jokey model I'd totally try and put some kind of large/visible solar panel on a Space Marine.

I have returned from searching the Noosphere for data...


I have recovered a few things, but I don't believe that these are "official", or at least are not completely so.


Also I found a design dating far back. This is not the current Dreadnought in service but instead an earlier mark from an earlier edition.


It shows "crystal" fuel manifolds and other things. At that point I think it was a big matter of "a wizard(Tech Preist) did it".

I did manage to locate this but its exactness and its unlikely to be official designs.

RE: oldskool dread: The old "crystal" power units were, I think, some sort of battery/induction combo that could charge itself off a planetary magnetic field (if present) but I don't remember exactly.

The bottom-most dreadnought cut-away is definitely fan-made not least because thy somehow missed the poor guy's knees.

Unfortunately the predator picture you have is too low resolution to be read on my screen… do you have a bigger one?

I'm also going to see if I can find a cut-away of a LR because I know those canonically have both a combustor and an RTG/micro-fission pile (for redundancy).

Oh, I abandoned this thread way too early... Give me a minute...

 Mr_Rose wrote:

Spoiler:

The only way to get a combustion engine that can accept anything from refined petroleum, through coal and wood, to the desiccated corpses of your enemies, as various bits of fluff have suggested, is external combustion.
Or a really good selective pre-processor but that's the exact opposite of "simple and easy to maintain" as required by the Imperium.

That is, you burn the fuel in one place and generate the motion somewhere else, connecting the two by some sort of transmission medium, in opposition to internal combustion where the burning full directly impinges on the drive surface as in reciprocating ICEs commonly found in automobiles and rotary turbines as found in tanks and aeroplanes.

Traditionally this has been some manner of boiling fluid (water for example) that is contained and directed to do work. This is in fact the common element of every coal, oil, gas, nuclear, and solar-thermal power plant we currently use.

Anyway, the thing is, and no-one knows how so far, but the Imperium has insanely efficient thermo-electric converters available, that are so cheap and easy to make they are churned out in their billions to power lasguns. Seriously, lasgun batteries are freaking magic compared to what we can do today. But that's another topic.

So here's what I think is going on: these thermic reactors a ECEs that use electricity as their working medium, by harnessing the same technology as lasgun batteries to convert heat to electric power directly. Probably the more compact and efficient ones have superior heat-sinks and insulation plus probably some auxiliary working fluid to even out heat distribution within the converter etc.


It also occurs to me that there are probably places like Knight World's where they have great castles heated by fires, that also have electricity because those great fireplaces have thermostat-electric conversion blocks for their back tiles and lining their flues.…

Good stuff all over the post, thanks.

 Keep wrote:

Chemical reactors contain chemical reactions. Thermic reactors contain thermic reactions.

There are two kinds of "thermic" reactions. Endothermic and Exothermic. Only one of those can be used for generating power. And an Exothermic reaction (for example fire) is a chemical reaction for all intends and purposes.

Thermic reactor imo is simply a "fancy" term for a combustion device of unspecified type (when considering the artistic evidence - as exhaust pipes and fumes). The name of the IA2 Rhino engine supports this (Quad Mk II Adaptable Thermic Combustor Reactor) Realistically a combustion engine/turbing is pretty limiting on galactic scale warfare, as it requires oxygen. No oxygen -> no power. And you are not going to store the in a tank, even heavily compressed. 1kg Diesel requires ~15000 liter of air at "standard" airpressure and 15°C to burn properly.

I always imagined that imperial engines just had their own compartment with oxidizer inside to run in vacuum. And said oxidizer is just as efficient as magical 'promethium', so diesel is way in the past for 40k. As realistic, as I try to be, sometime I have to screw realism, though I try to keep it to the minimum.

At the same time, I really don't like the opinion that imperial engines can run coal and wood, but it sounds really interesting for me in this way:
Engines are actual engines, with internal combustion and some additional stuff.
Thermic Reactors are something completely different, using external combustion, insanely efficient thermo-electric converters and, at the same time, totally available to run in vacuum.

I gotta think of it a bit more, but in my mind it is definitely interesting concept.

 Selym wrote:
So... Dreadnought s are steampunk?

I have a Viking Werewolf Steampunk Walking Coffin-Of-A-Genetically-Engineered-Superhuman.

Huh.

That's why I love you, Warhammer 40K.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I will get back to you later on this once I get back home to my codices, but I remember it being described as a 'highly-efficient sub-atomic microfusion reactor core'.

RT era PA used solar power instead, but newer lore has gone over to fusion.

Edit: A quick Google does not yield a page number (backpack power is obviously not a common debate) but the fusion power is often mentioned in what debates there are, including in past threads on Dakka. As said, I can get back to you later if you want page numbers.

Actually, 1d4chan says that Chaos Marines still have to struggle with solar power (or daemons, of course), and only loyalists switched to fusion reactors. And official wiki says that loyalist backpack has a sub-atomic microfusion generator and a back-up solar power converter and 100 solar cell batteries to store the absorbed solar energy in case of emergencies.

 Engine of War wrote:

Spoiler:

I have returned from searching the Noosphere for data...


I have recovered a few things, but I don't believe that these are "official", or at least are not completely so.



Also I found a design dating far back. This is not the current Dreadnought in service but instead an earlier mark from an earlier edition.



It shows "crystal" fuel manifolds and other things. At that point I think it was a big matter of "a wizard(Tech Preist) did it".

I did manage to locate this but its exactness and its unlikely to be official designs.

I love old dreads. It's a great shame my arms ain't straight enough to paint good enough to have no shame to play actual tabletop game, but if I'd play it, I'd definitely used that fugly can they called Deredeo.

And thanks for the images. Even though I saw two of them, I never paid enough attention. Heck, someone always have to stick my nose right into it for me to see it... thank you.

And while Predator one is not that interesting (or I still do not see what I have to see), the Dreadnought one mentions some kind of 'crystal fuel' and that's definitely a thing to think about.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
RE: oldskool dread: The old "crystal" power units were, I think, some sort of battery/induction combo that could charge itself off a planetary magnetic field (if present) but I don't remember exactly.

The bottom-most dreadnought cut-away is definitely fan-made not least because thy somehow missed the poor guy's knees.

Unfortunately the predator picture you have is too low resolution to be read on my screen… do you have a bigger one?

I'm also going to see if I can find a cut-away of a LR because I know those canonically have both a combustor and an RTG/micro-fission pile (for redundancy).

The dreads don't need body at all, as far as I'm concerned. Varies from dread to dread, but, I think, it can be as much as a brain in jar depending on how hard the marine was crippled before being entombed in a dreadnought.

Predator schematics don't work for me as well, so here's the one that works for me:

Thanks for finding the bigger Predator schematic.
Looking at tit though, it only makes mention of one drive, the tiny one right at the front which looks to be an electric motor, power source unlabelled, unfortunately.

As for the dreadnought's knees, I was referring to the suit itself, not the pilot; the illustrator appears to have forgotten that Dreadnought legs bend in the middle and instead has what looks like a pair of massive hydraulic pistons from hip to ankle in place of the square beams joined by a knee motor cylinder that is actually modelled in the kits.

What if they're Hydrogen Fuel cells that vent off waste/unusable coolant/coolant at a critical expansion state. Or just need to burn off excess fuel because pointless problems that the Techpriests are too busy praying at to fix