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Hey all! I've been out of the loop on 40k tabletop for a good couple of years now but as an avid fan of the universe I found myself wandering GW's webstore and man. I'm really digging their sudden fascination with Kill Teams. I mean like a separate mini-rulebook, Death Watch are a faction now apparently and a whole starter set focused wholly on what was once a side goof-off thing when I started playing. I've always loved Kill Teams but almost no one I knew who played 40k really cared that much about it. The fact I can get some cool models without breaking the bank and have a 40k-in-40-Minutes gametype to play is super appealing to me and a bunch of my friends (We all avidly enjoy Infinity and LoTR:SBG. We really like to skirmish for money/space/actually-getting-all-our-models-painted reasons).

Anyways the point of this thread is that I don't have a lot of info on it and haven't found much online. Does anyone here own the new Kill Team ruleset/box set? Is it any good? How does it stand up to the Heralds of Ruin fan-made rules (Which I do adore but they aren't very widespread in my area which is why I'm checking up on the official rules for Kill Teams)? What even is the points limit on a KT game? What unit types can you use in the new KT rules?

If any of you guys have given those new(ish) KT rules a try, please let me know how you like (Or don't like) them!

It's not out till next saturday so I'd expect more answers then.

Since new rules aren't out yet hard for anybody to comment yet but don't see why you need to be one or another anyway. Same models usable generally so if you like HOR more try to get opponents for it but if opponents are official KT only and it's not unplayable crap for you then play it.

Small point games, like the GW board games released during the last one or two years, are usually not persistent over time. These developments are nonsustainable.
Nobody in our gaming group plays them. However, the models are often interesting.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Small point games, like the GW board games released during the last one or two years, are usually not persistent over time. These developments are nonsustainable.
Nobody in our gaming group plays them. However, the models are often interesting.

Kill team is different though, its an actual format, like Apocalypse used to be.

It's like saying you play 1500pts ITC or something. So the single Tac Squad and Fire Warrior arent the only things in the game that can be played. All the factions (to my knowledge) should be able to represented with no issues.

The idea is a very tiny skirmish ruleset (aka what 40k's majority of rules are meant to be already) Where you deploy a squad or two and maybe a vehicle, and infantry units can split up and fight individually. It's an excellent way to start the game and a ton of fun for vets because they can paint up a single box or two of a faction theyve always wanted to try and theyre done. Plus, having a small game size means players can go all out and really customize their squads, which can make for some awesome painting opportunities.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Small point games, like the GW board games released during the last one or two years, are usually not persistent over time. These developments are nonsustainable.
Nobody in our gaming group plays them. However, the models are often interesting.

Kill team is different though, its an actual format, like Apocalypse used to be.

It's like saying you play 1500pts ITC or something. So the single Tac Squad and Fire Warrior arent the only things in the game that can be played. All the factions (to my knowledge) should be able to represented with no issues.

The idea is a very tiny skirmish ruleset (aka what 40k's majority of rules are meant to be already) Where you deploy a squad or two and maybe a vehicle, and infantry units can split up and fight individually. It's an excellent way to start the game and a ton of fun for vets because they can paint up a single box or two of a faction theyve always wanted to try and theyre done. Plus, having a small game size means players can go all out and really customize their squads, which can make for some awesome painting opportunities.

If so, I'm really looking forward to the rules.

Hah! That's entirely my bad I didn't realize the stuff for it wasn't even released yet!

And yeah Kill Teams has never been one of GW's off-shoot mini games that are lucky to be played for more than a few weeks before they are quietly taken off the shelves, it's definitely more comparable to Apocalypse.

This is an update to the older 6th ed Kill Team rules. So it should be a subset of the base rules, allowing every faction to play, this isn't a one-off board game type thing that only has Marines vs. Tau.

Looks definitely worth it to me.
Might actually being able to get my friends into it with this; everyone I've tried to show 40k to has immediately been put off by the scale and depth.

HoR will probably still be better as a standalone game, as it's heavily based off necromunda and mordheim rules which are more fleshed out than simplifying the 40k base ruleset. Killteam (juding by the leaks and previous iterations) strikes me as more of an quick skirmish ruleset, good for introductory games, and fast simple games, but overall lacking the depth of HoR.

GW won't have army codexes written specifically for killteams, and it probably won't have the level of campaign experience/advancement/wounding that HoR has.
I just hope GW fixes the problems with horde armies being vastly advantageous to the individual unit rules (especially ones with grenades. A dozen guard veterans chucking krak grenades all over the place is stupid).

I honestly think HoR is too integrated into the current 40k rules. Writing it as a plugin onto the core rules and trying to use a large percentage of the models results in some weird balance problems, and GW writing a plugin onto the core rules is likely to be much worse.

I've been working on a hybrid mashup of Mordheim, Necromunda, and 40k, but it's not done enough to post right now.

 McGibs wrote:
HoR will probably still be better as a standalone game, as it's heavily based off necromunda and mordheim rules which are more fleshed out than simplifying the 40k base ruleset. Killteam (juding by the leaks and previous iterations) strikes me as more of an quick skirmish ruleset, good for introductory games, and fast simple games, but overall lacking the depth of HoR.

GW won't have army codexes written specifically for killteams, and it probably won't have the level of campaign experience/advancement/wounding that HoR has.
I just hope GW fixes the problems with horde armies being vastly advantageous to the individual unit rules (especially ones with grenades. A dozen guard veterans chucking krak grenades all over the place is stupid).

Just a point of order, only one model in a squad can use a Grenade in a phase. Meaning one model can throw a Frag/Krak grenade in the shooting phase if in range, and one model can use grenades offensively in the ensuing/following assault phase.

This was recently clarified in the FAQ drafts being put out over the last few months so you know.

Hope that helps. Take it easy.

-Red_Thirst-

Kill Team is not a stand alone skirmish game, it's a different format for playing 40K. Faster, smaller games, with different Force Org and missions.

Necromunda and Mordheim were tons of fun, but thier style of advancement ineviatabley leads to imbalances in the forces after a few games. The better, or luckier, players end up with teams that dominate, everyone gets used as target practice, and you end the campaign and play something else.

 Red__Thirst wrote:
Just a point of order, only one model in a squad can use a Grenade in a phase.

Correct. And in Kill Team (under the current rules, at least) each model is a separate single-model unit. Only one model in the single-model unit can use a grenade in a phase, but all 30 of your units can each use their one grenade.

Honestly, with the way KT is, I don't think there's anything wrong with each individual unit being able to use his individual equipment. Apart from the fact it doesn't make sense that your 10 Guardsmen veterans are treated as individuals right up until it comes to lobbing grenades and suddenly they're only allowed to chuck the one between the 10 of them because the flying spaghetti monster decrees it so, it's not like it's terribly hard to counter horde Kill Teams.

Like running through the possibilities and crunching the numbers is fun and makes horde KTs seem straight up silly but in practice I've never seen a horde list do very well in Kill Teams. They sure are fun to play with and against but when you break up blob-units into individuals they suffer a huge trade-off, even with special weapons scattered among them.

And let's not forget that a canny opponent will funnel your horde into tight spacings, and rhen spam frag grenades and flamers until they're gone.

KT is fun. Waaay more balanced than normal 40k.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:
Just a point of order, only one model in a squad can use a Grenade in a phase.

Correct. And in Kill Team (under the current rules, at least) each model is a separate single-model unit. Only one model in the single-model unit can use a grenade in a phase, but all 30 of your units can each use their one grenade.

You've read the updated killteam rules?

I'd hope that in the revised rules for killteam, they would address this to a point. Only allowing one of your models to throw grenades in line with the spirit of how grenades work in the main rule book.

Guess we'll see. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red__Thirst wrote:
You've read the updated killteam rules?

No, I'm talking about the current rules since the original mention of grenades was about a perceived problem with the current rules and a desire to have the new rules fix it. You mentioned the one grenade per unit rule as if it was relevant to that problem when it clearly isn't (since every model is a separate unit). I have no idea what the new rules may or may not do about grenades, but if they don't add some kind of "only one unit per turn can throw a grenade" rule you will continue to be able to throw a grenade with every model in your kill team.

My point, and the reason for the quoted text you so kindly provided in this most recent reply, Peregrine, is that there's no use talking about the old previous problem with grenades and how they interact with being thrown in the current edition until we see the full revised and updated killteam rules.

Once we have said killteam rules in our hot 'lil hands, and confirm grenades work on a per unit basis as current, or per-model (one model per phase, not unit). There's no point in worrying about it till then, and in the mean time it wouldn't be terribly difficult to just have a gentlemanly agreement to let one model use a grenade per phase (in the spirit of the current rule and FAQ ruling) than try to argue RAW and have grenade spam occur.

Just my 2 pennies.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I think its gonna be good, only problem is, if you try and play with out a lot of terrain, thats what makes a kill team/ HOR game really good.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Small point games, like the GW board games released during the last one or two years, are usually not persistent over time. These developments are nonsustainable.
Nobody in our gaming group plays them. However, the models are often interesting.

Kill team is different though, its an actual format, like Apocalypse used to be.

It's like saying you play 1500pts ITC or something. So the single Tac Squad and Fire Warrior arent the only things in the game that can be played. All the factions (to my knowledge) should be able to represented with no issues.

The idea is a very tiny skirmish ruleset (aka what 40k's majority of rules are meant to be already) Where you deploy a squad or two and maybe a vehicle, and infantry units can split up and fight individually. It's an excellent way to start the game and a ton of fun for vets because they can paint up a single box or two of a faction theyve always wanted to try and theyre done. Plus, having a small game size means players can go all out and really customize their squads, which can make for some awesome painting opportunities.

This right here. He nails every detail. Ive played a few of the older version and it was extremely enjoyable. A game only lasts an hour or two at most, each model can be unique, and the game becomes much more balanced. It's probably my favorite.

 Red__Thirst wrote:
My point, and the reason for the quoted text you so kindly provided in this most recent reply, Peregrine, is that there's no use talking about the old previous problem with grenades and how they interact with being thrown in the current edition until we see the full revised and updated killteam rules.

Once we have said killteam rules in our hot 'lil hands, and confirm grenades work on a per unit basis as current, or per-model (one model per phase, not unit). There's no point in worrying about it till then, and in the mean time it wouldn't be terribly difficult to just have a gentlemanly agreement to let one model use a grenade per phase (in the spirit of the current rule and FAQ ruling) than try to argue RAW and have grenade spam occur.

Just my 2 pennies.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Which is why I said "I hope GW fixes", because this entire thread is based on speculation of what the new killteam rules will be. In the current GW killteam rules, the rules for grenades allow every unit to throw one (and since every model is its own unit, every single model can throw a grenade), so by dint of that problem, I HOPE they resolves that in the next version of the rules. There's use in talking about old previous problems when all we're doing here is speculating what the new rules will be.
This is a current problem. I hope they fix it. HoR has fixed it by having one-shot grenades. If they dont' fix it it, I would argue that as a point for playing HoR over GW killteam, as this thread is discussing.

 Red__Thirst wrote:
Just a point of order, only one model in a squad can use a Grenade in a phase. Meaning one model can throw a Frag/Krak grenade in the shooting phase if in range, and one model can use grenades offensively in the ensuing/following assault phase.

This was recently clarified in the FAQ drafts being put out over the last few months so you know.

Hope that helps. Take it easy.

-Red_Thirst-

I love it when someone is both patronising and wrong or out of context.

Also, please tell me, why do you feel the need to put that "Take it Easy" bit and sign every post at the bottom? Is it meant to sound like you are trying to be nice, or is it deliberately a bit arch and condescending?

ITT:

What is kill team?

Kill team is basically this.

Thanks!

*Half a page of grenade arguing*

Anyway, this year I was introduced to Kill Team using the 6th edition rules and played in a 250 point tournament at GenCon.

Fast games, lots of tabling(oh, noes!1!!), and interest rules. I really enjoyed asigning specialists unique rules/powers, how fast the game played, and now I can justify buying new units for armies I don't currently play but would like to paint.

"But it's just for 250 point kill team, honey. See!" Value right there, folks! BAM!

 kronk wrote:
ITT:

What is kill team?

Kill team is basically this.

Thanks!

*Half a page of grenade arguing*

Anyway, this year I was introduced to Kill Team using the 6th edition rules and played in a 250 point tournament at GenCon.

Fast games, lots of tabling(oh, noes!1!!), and interest rules. I really enjoyed asigning specialists unique rules/powers, how fast the game played, and now I can justify buying new units for armies I don't currently play but would like to paint.

"But it's just for 250 point kill team, honey. See!" Value right there, folks! BAM!

Oh kill team and HoR are the bees knees, i really love things from HoR like if you are making an assault from above an enemy, you add +1 to your str if you pass a test, or if you get hit you dont actually go down, you have to roll on a table to see if you are just knocked down or actually critically injured. Much more narrative.

I guess that last bit is HoR? I'm not familiar with it.

 kronk wrote:
I guess that last bit is HoR? I'm not familiar with it.

Its a pretty good game, its pretty much kill team, but more in depth. Like more rules for assaulting or assist assaulting. You can do things like suppressing fire, where you aim at a single model, but also his everything with in 2 or 3 inch of that model, but at a BS of -1. Things like if you go down you have to roll of a 1-2 you just get knocked down and get up at the start of your next turn, 3-5, stunned, 6 critical injury.

lets you take a lot more units, like my kill team has 1 terminator and then tac marines.

Here is a link they even have armies that are not out like a rogue trader army


http://heralds-of-ruin.blogspot.com/p/kill-team-rules.html

What is HoR?

 nintura wrote:
What is HoR?

Herald of Ruin

A fan made kill team game thats really in depth and lets you do a lot more stuff then a normal kill team game, (Have not seen the new rules assuming) i linked it in my above post. Should give it a read.

I am actually looking forward to checking it out. I have a small Red Scorpion force I want to check out.