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To me this seems like a ginormous problem in general with 40k in that from the position of the imperium there's actually no threat at all. Allow me to elaborate.

The imperium control the majority of the galaxy or to be fair their region of the galaxy in a sphere around the astronomicon, who are the greatest threats to mankind? The orks? said to be more numerous
than any of the other races possibly combined? it's well known that they unless united pose no threat at all and i'd like to postulate further that even during a waaagh humanity can easily compete even
at the height of their power for numerous reasons more organised armies, planets dedicated to certain functions e.g producing titans or producing battleships or agriculture, unlike the orks who are disorganised and therefore easy to manage, the orks are controlled by simply removing the chieftain with an assassin which is an easy control mechanism therefore the orks are nothing more than a nuisance. This is the race that poses the greatest threat to humanity just bare that in mind. If humanity wanted they could obliterate them out of existence.

Next we have the Tau although more than capable at fighting on an even footing with humanity the numbers are much too heavily one sided they are literally not a threat at all in my opinion they barely qualify as a "major" race one glance at the galaxy map and you have to squint in order to make out their location. If humanity wanted they could obliterate them out of existence.

Chaos could be considered the greatest threat to humanity as it's omnipresent and dependent on emotions and i'm unsure as to if it's possible to wipe them out of existence however i think across all the millions of systems humanity controls one bright spark can develop a means to infiltrate the eye of terror and from that point - If humanity wanted they could obliterate them out of existence.

The tyranids? Although they potentially could outnumber every sentient being in the galaxy based on the evidence they have a handful of fleets and although a threat to a few worlds especially if left unchecked - If humanity wanted they could obliterate them out of existence.

The eldar? Same story as the tau they could not hope to stand against humanity, and as for the dark eldar if humanity ever found a way to enter the webgates they would be annihilated.

The necrons call me a newb at lore but they don't appear to care about conquering the galaxy or approaching terra even if they are superior to the armies of humanity and even so my inclination is that if humanity wanted they could find all their tomb worlds in vast organised numbers and obliterate them out of existence.

In my opinion the only threat to humanity is if the tau use their mind control devices on the orks and some sort of psuedo alliance is formed so you have the organised leadership of highly sophisticated strategists controlling the vast numbers of the orks at that moment imperium finds it's first threat, beyond that nothing short of an alliance out of necessity between all races in the galaxy (including the necrons and tyranids) could hope to stand against humanity and even then humanity could come out on top.

Based on all that is said in the new lore i hear is being proposed what i suggest is that this needs to completely change without affecting all of the current races new races that actually are a threat need to exist in the unexplored regions of the galaxy races with comparable empires in size races that actually pose a threat because at the moment the only threat in the galaxy is humanity and there is nobody to oppose them.

Interested in your thoughts thanks.

Nice text thank you but I do not agree especially on the tyranids. In lore it was made pretty clear that to stop tyranid swarms very heavy casualties were taken into account and that it was by far no easy task. Their disturbance of warp even disables space-travel / communication in their proximity. Therefore I dont think they can just be obliterated.

Few problems that need to be pointed out

Orks: Are a very large threat because they can never be fully killed, and when a WAGH is declared gak gets really really, the largest wagh was that of armagedon and it took the steel legion, the inquisition, blood anagels, ultra smerfs, and salamanders ALONG WITH a titan legion to stop it, all on a world that could pump out weapons of war like nothing.

The other problem you are not taking into account is that if the IoM loses a forgeworld, its a massive lose because they cant just start making those items on another planet because they have no idea how to build the production facilities. So if the shop that makes baneblades goes up, and thats the last place that can produce them, thats it, baneblades are gone forever or until the Big E comes back. So orks are a massive threat because they hit hard and fast with out warning of any kind.

Tau, eh, not a threat, but really cant be taken as they have far better tech then the IoM they could blast them outta the sky if they tried to invade.

Nids are the biggest threat as we have only seen a very VERY small portion of their main hive fleet. Very little is know about them.

Eldar are a fleeting threat.

Necrons if they ever get off their ass and do something could destroy most of the galaxy . To give you an example, the necrons were so close to destroying the galaxy that the old ones had to make the orks to deal with them, problem right now, they keep hitting snooze and dont get up.

So say there is no real threat to the IoM is wrong to say the least.

Your fanboy is showing.

First and formst no one uses the words 'controlled' and 'Orks' in the same sentence. An Ork Waaagh is incredibely devestating when it picks up steam. Just look at Armageddon. Gazzy got bored and wandered off and still the planet is a meca for rampaging greenskins so just removing the chieftan won't always stop a Waagh dead in its tracks. Its the unpredictable nature of the Ork that makes them unmanagable, the only thing known for certian is that their hyper violent.

The Tau are young yes and own only a small piece of the galaxy but what they lack in number they make up for in incredible technology. Advanced warsuits and tactics that can leave the imperium with a bloody nose when they attempt to simply crush them with their dead. Even titans fear their aircraft armed with massive railcannons that nimbly dart out of the clouds to cleave cockpits intwain.

Chaos, its laughable to dare suggest it could be destroyed. Only if you could stop every sentient who ever existed and will exist from expeirencing emotion could you starve the gods of chaos. And men will always seek easy power.

Tyranids, the bulk of thier fleets have not yet even arrived. Stopping a single hive is incredibly costly, requiring the sacrifice of ships and worlds that cannot be spared. They are pyric victories, each one hollow and empty as more hives emerge from the cold void.

The Eldar, do you really think you can exterimate a race that is not only five step but five years ahead of you? They have been manipulating time and events in our history for as long as we have existed, steering us into costly bloody wars with orks, tyranids and even ourselves.

Their dark kin are no easier targets. They have tools and toys from before the collapse of their empire ontop of their kins long life and cunning deceptions, their pit in the webway is a deathtrap for the unwary and the prepared.

The necrons, slowly awakening from slumber once rivaled the Eldar in ruling the galaxy and they intend to return to that sea of dominance. They weild technology that can turn off the stars themselves and they have broken their own gods to fuel engines of war.

Now, one of these threats alone is dangerous enough to humanity. But they are not staggered foes, faced one by one, the Imperium is beset by all these foes at once. Worse, the beuracracy of the empire keeps it from focusing on a single threat nor can can it afford to. The Imperium is a whale, surrounded by sharks taking bites from all sides.

Perhaps now you see things a little clearer.

in that from the position of the imperium there's actually no threat at all.

In a sense of "the Imperium collapsing by this time next year", I'd agree. Even if the Imperium started losing on every front, it would take centuries for every last vestige of the Imperium to be wiped out. It took centuries to conquer it in the first place, after all.

That's not the same as 'not under threat', though, because it is losing ground, continuously, on a lot of fronts, and if it keeps losing a system here, a company there, a ship elsewhere, eventually there will be no more ships and marines and worlds. And with the 'big battles' occurring more and more often, huge chunks are being taken out of the Imperium at once.

The Imperium always 'wants to obliterate xenos from existance' - the fact that they haven't implies they haven't been able to.

Yes orks are - by and large - not organised as a galactic force, but then neither (to be honest) is the Imperium. And the Orks are organised at a lower level. Ork Waaaggh! regularly overrun worlds and even subsectors. Yes, trying to keep them contained by killing off budding major warbosses is a feasible tactic (the Ultramarines did this for centuries to keep Chardon destabilized) but whilst it stops, say, one warboss being able to mobilize the entirety of the Empire of Charadon, it doesn't stop smaller, world-threatening mobs still turning up. Equally, when dealing with larger Waaaggh!, it's not that reliable a plan. "Just Assassinate Ghazgkhulll Mag Uruk Thraka" is easy to say but bloody hard to do, given his track record.

I would agree that the Tau are not a threat. They, more than anyone, are a minor race and only survive fundamentally because the Imperium has umpty-ump more pressing concerns, so their generally better-than-common-imperial-issue tech gives them the edge over what they actually have to face.

Chaos - anyone can 'infiltrate the Eye of Terror' - no special tech or abilities are required (an Ork Waaagh! already did it, for example) - the problem is: and do what? Within the Eye, reality is what the chaos gods and their servants say it is, so what you achieve is corruption and insanity.
There are probably not that many fewer traitor humans and astartes within the eye (see, for example, Talon of Horus) as there are Loyalists outside it. There have been multiple cases of Imperial forces entering the Eye and the result has yet to go well.

The Tyranids......we've no idea. But again, given that Humanity has been on a fighting retreat from Hive Fleet Kraken, plus has lost numerous not-in-any-way minor systems (such as a titan legion-hosting forge world) to Hibe Fleet Leviathan, I question again the 'obliterate them' option.

Eldar - I concur with the Dark Eldar view; if the Imperium could attack Commoragh en masse they could destroy it, given the damage a single chapter fleet did to the old Commorite hierarchy. But managing that is not going to be easy. The craftworlders - the problem is that anything that can catch them, can't beat them in a fight, and vice-versa.

Necrons - the Eldar Empire (pre-fall) have spent many tens of thousands of years trying to hunt down and destroy the necron tomb worlds and never managed it. The Imperium has less numbers and weaker technology.

Ultimately, yes, humanity could probably cope with any one other race. It's the fact that it's trying to hold its ground against all of them that's the problem; there's no formal 'alliance', but simply the fact that all of them are ultimately inimical to mankind, so it has to fight the lot of them.

Inaphyt wrote:
To me this seems like a ginormous problem in general with 40k in that from the position of the imperium there's actually no threat at all. Allow me to elaborate.

The imperium control the majority of the galaxy or to be fair their region of the galaxy in a sphere around the astronomicon, who are the greatest threats to mankind? The orks? said to be more numerous
than any of the other races possibly combined? it's well known that they unless united pose no threat at all and i'd like to postulate further that even during a waaagh humanity can easily compete even
at the height of their power for numerous reasons more organised armies, planets dedicated to certain functions e.g producing titans or producing battleships or agriculture, unlike the orks who are disorganised and therefore easy to manage, the orks are controlled by simply removing the chieftain with an assassin which is an easy control mechanism therefore the orks are nothing more than a nuisance. This is the race that poses the greatest threat to humanity just bare that in mind. If humanity wanted they could obliterate them out of existence.

Next we have the Tau although more than capable at fighting on an even footing with humanity the numbers are much too heavily one sided they are literally not a threat at all in my opinion they barely qualify as a "major" race one glance at the galaxy map and you have to squint in order to make out their location. If humanity wanted they could obliterate them out of existence.

Chaos could be considered the greatest threat to humanity as it's omnipresent and dependent on emotions and i'm unsure as to if it's possible to wipe them out of existence however i think across all the millions of systems humanity controls one bright spark can develop a means to infiltrate the eye of terror and from that point - If humanity wanted they could obliterate them out of existence.

The tyranids? Although they potentially could outnumber every sentient being in the galaxy based on the evidence they have a handful of fleets and although a threat to a few worlds especially if left unchecked - If humanity wanted they could obliterate them out of existence.

The eldar? Same story as the tau they could not hope to stand against humanity, and as for the dark eldar if humanity ever found a way to enter the webgates they would be annihilated.

The necrons call me a newb at lore but they don't appear to care about conquering the galaxy or approaching terra even if they are superior to the armies of humanity and even so my inclination is that if humanity wanted they could find all their tomb worlds in vast organised numbers and obliterate them out of existence.

In my opinion the only threat to humanity is if the tau use their mind control devices on the orks and some sort of psuedo alliance is formed so you have the organised leadership of highly sophisticated strategists controlling the vast numbers of the orks at that moment imperium finds it's first threat, beyond that nothing short of an alliance out of necessity between all races in the galaxy (including the necrons and tyranids) could hope to stand against humanity and even then humanity could come out on top.

Based on all that is said in the new lore i hear is being proposed what i suggest is that this needs to completely change without affecting all of the current races new races that actually are a threat need to exist in the unexplored regions of the galaxy races with comparable empires in size races that actually pose a threat because at the moment the only threat in the galaxy is humanity and there is nobody to oppose them.

Interested in your thoughts thanks.

Ok, let's address this bit by bit...

Orks: They outnumber the Imperium 2:1 and are currently not united. However, during a Waaagh! they do unite at a certain level. Now, the things with Orks is that they are exponential. Their personal power grows exponentially with every battle they win, a Waaagh! grows with every victory as more Orks join the cause, their numbers swell as they fight to their reproduction cycle. Ie, the more they win, the more they will continue to win. They are like a weed that needs to be nipped in the bud before it can sprout. A small ork force is easily crushed and won't do much damage, but after crushing 1 system it will double in size, after 4 systems it'll be 20 times its original size and with wierder and more destructive weaponry and much harder to defeat. The more it wins, the harder it is to defeat. Therefore the Imperium has to respond to each threat as early as possible and wipe it out. Mostly this happens as a glorious campaign but sometimes you get stuff like The Beast and Armageddon.


Tau: Occupy a small area of space NOW, and aren't really a threat, but they offer a "nicer" future than the Imperium which prioritises the needs of the whole over the individual. That means the Imperium will gladly sacrifice a couple billion to work themselves into their graves to their forces can keep fighting and keep the Imperium alive. The Tau offer an "escape" for those but also mixing with Xenos is dangerous. When you start having other species weighing in on decisions it means humanity are not longer top dog and their needs are not guarenteed. Its like having the family dog weighing in on dinner plans, you'll not have many veggies at dinner. Their momentum and technology also makes them a threat.


CWE: Have weapons of Exterminatus level power, can go anywhere in the galaxy with ease, can see the future.
Deldar: Their city is the size of a moon, undying due to cloning (so can hold a grudge), much superior tech and physical ability, actually enjoying hurting humans


Necrons: currently divided over goals but their technology outstrips the other races combined, their fleet-based combat ability is unmatched. If they united with a single objective they'd steam roll everyone.

Chaos: The Great Enemy, AKA the enemy within. Why are they the greatest threat? Because the only way to ensure stupid, selfish humans don't feth it up for everyone by turning to Chaos is to ensure they don't have enough autonomy to do so, which ends up pushing people towards that Chaos as they resist. It can't be permanently beaten as the Chaos Gods are immortal so long as sentient creatures inhabit the galaxy. They have Space Marines of their own and can turn those space marines into 12ft tall immortal daemons at a whim.


Tyranids: Outnumber the rest of the galaxy 12:1, and that's only the opening vanguard of their fleet. Behemoth, the smallest and weakest fleet with bumrush tactics, nearly wiped out the Ultramarines on their home turf and would have done but for blind luck. They cut out communications, have virtually unlimited resources, disrupt Daemonic ties, adapt faster than Tau, can adapt to expressly kill Orks, outnumber Eldar 50:1. Each time they have been beaten only after they completely decimate dozens upon dozens of worlds and usually only beaten due to a singular hero prevailing against all odds, or by sheer luck and timing (Behemoth due to other fleet showing up at precisely right moment. Kraken because it was split between the Imperium and Eldar and Yriel showed up at the right momet, Gorgon because the Imperial Guard showed up at the exact right time, Leviathan hasn't been yet at all). They don't even conquer planets, they annihilate them beyond use, they adapt faster than you can kill them and they replenish their troops from bodies of the dead, yours and theirs. The key words here are AGAINST ALL ODDS. As in, Tyranids are designed to be the ultimate enemy, unbeatable in the long term. Like a swarm of locusts versus crops where the IMperium are the crops. You can chase them off twice, use spray repellent, pesticides, but eventually they'll come back, bigger, unafraid of humans, too tough for repellent and immune to pesticides and feast on the crops until its bare.



Alone, the Imperium could face any one of these threats head on and maybe win, maybe even against Chaos and the Tyranids, but trying to tackle all these. Its trying to juggle a time bomb, a grenade, a bucket of lava and a battle axe while also trying to beat a swarm of locusts off your crops and stop your children running with scissors and also your shoes are on fire and one of your brothers is trying to pour liquid nitrogen down your underwear.

The Imperium once almost conquered the Galaxy. It was all powerful, and unified in purpose. Then, the Heresy. Since then, the Imperium has eternal internal problems that have eroded its strength, technology, and unification. External threats have multiplied to the point they cannot be addressed one at a time. Like fighting a hydra. Hence, "there is only war." To consider one foe at a time is not to consider all foes at once. Yes, each enemy is vulnerable, they could maybe be defeated singularly, some at more cost than the others. But, they can't be fought that way. If not held in check, each could do great damage. Although, what we know about the Tyranids would seem to be that they are unstoppable.

At the end of the day, the greatest threat to the 40K universe is the people writing the current lore. This End Times stuff has me worried. I fear the 40K Universe will be blown up by some Deus ex Machina, and we will be left with Realm Gates.

Another factor to take into account is that the Imperium is facing all these enemies simultaneously. Yes, perhaps the Imperium could wipe out any of their enemies if they could bring their full might to bear, but they cannot. The Tau are a great example of this. They are very small and a large enough force could easily overwhelm them, but the Imperium has been unable to muster the proper forces because they are needed to fight the encroaching Tyranid swarms nearby.

The Imperium is vast but slow, being taken apart by a thousand cuts on a billion different battlefields.

The orks although very devastating during a waaagh still lost to humanity and look at humanity today did it make the remotest impact? This further raises the point that even during the orks most destructive and powerful stage of waaagh they lost against humanity so their present state could be considered a trivial threat like the tau, another point to raise about the orks is that their technology never develops as it's all encoded and to my understanding although IOM isn't at the level of it's golden age it still does develop it's tech which makes the next waaagh easier to overcome. Further at any point during a waaagh there is the ever present risk that the waaagh will simply break down due to internal power struggles as it attracts orks some of them comparably strong to the current leader every passing second of a waaagh it's possible for it to breakdown into civil wars.

I disagree with people overhyping the tau to my knowledge the tau are actually less technologically advanced than the IOM it's the fact that their technological level is advancing much quicker than humanity rather than them having a tech advantage it wouldn't make sense thematically them being the younger race however their growth is the scary thing whereas humanity is stagnating that was my understanding anyway.

When it comes to chaos in warhammer history gods have been killed before and is some cases used to fuel war machines i wouldn't be so sure that chaos can't be defeated and the race with the most resources? numbers? scientists? humanity, let's rephrase the question rather than can humanity obliterate chaos? of all the races in warhammer 40k who stands the best chance of developing a means to kill a chaos god? The eldar perhaps? they even have a vested interest in doing so but they haven't done so thus far, The orks likely aren't interested in such a venture. My money is on > humanity

As for the tyranids at great loss to the empire sure but nevertheless defeated by human hands if i'm not mistaken several times a great loss the empire what ? a pitiful army 0.1% the size of total war machine? maybe even less.

The eldar was an interesting point humanity simply can't catch them i don't have a realistic answer to that if they play their cards right and simply flee forever and take fights where the IOM is not they could be a nuisance sure but what about their static worlds? If the empire showed up there there would be no defence but obliteration and i imagine at some point the eldar have to dock? maybe i'm wrong.

The last point is that it is true that the empire is engaged with multiple zenos on multiple fronts but that's also true of every other race for example the tau lost multiple worlds to the tyranids and fought the orks in defence of the kroot to any other race in the galaxy it's the same story for them as for humanity except they aren't a gargantuan predator with sick amounts of numbers and resources. I think we can all agree with that?

The mere fact that the Imperium would completely collapse if it lost the Sol system means that the Necrons can literally destroy it whenever they like with the equivalent of pressing a button as long as the Celestial Orrery exists, so... might want to revise that threat rating just a tad.

Inaphyt wrote:
The orks although very devastating during a waaagh still lost to humanity and look at humanity today did it make the remotest impact? This further raises the point that even during the orks most destructive and powerful stage of waaagh they lost against humanity so their present state could be considered a trivial threat like the tau, another point to raise about the orks is that their technology never develops as it's all encoded and to my understanding although IOM isn't at the level of it's golden age it still does develop it's tech which makes the next waaagh easier to overcome. Further at any point during a waaagh there is the ever present risk that the waaagh will simply break down due to internal power struggles as it attracts orks some of them comparably strong to the current leader every passing second of a waaagh it's possible for it to breakdown into civil wars.

I disagree with people overhyping the tau to my knowledge the tau are actually less technologically advanced than the IOM it's the fact that their technological level is advancing much quicker than humanity rather than them having a tech advantage it wouldn't make sense thematically them being the younger race however their growth is the scary thing whereas humanity is stagnating that was my understanding anyway.

When it comes to chaos in warhammer history gods have been killed before and is some cases used to fuel war machines i wouldn't be so sure that chaos can't be defeated and the race with the most resources? numbers? scientists? humanity, let's rephrase the question rather than can humanity obliterate chaos? of all the races in warhammer 40k who stands the best chance of developing a means to kill a chaos god? The eldar perhaps? they even have a vested interest in doing so but they haven't done so thus far, The orks likely aren't interested in such a venture. My money is on > humanity

As for the tyranids at great loss to the empire sure but nevertheless defeated by human hands if i'm not mistaken several times a great loss the empire what ? a pitiful army 0.1% the size of total war machine? maybe even less.

The eldar was an interesting point humanity simply can't catch them i don't have a realistic answer to that if they play their cards right and simply flee forever and take fights where the IOM is not they could be a nuisance sure but what about their static worlds? If the empire showed up there there would be no defence but obliteration and i imagine at some point the eldar have to dock? maybe i'm wrong.

The last point is that it is true that the empire is engaged with multiple zenos on multiple fronts but that's also true of every other race for example the tau lost multiple worlds to the tyranids and fought the orks in defence of the kroot to any other race in the galaxy it's the same story for them as for humanity except they aren't a gargantuan predator with sick amounts of numbers and resources. I think we can all agree with that?

Ok your just trolling at this point.
Whats their impact of humanity? Oh not much just ravaging hive world after hive world, killing BILLIONS of humans and never faltering in numbers, looting and destorying valuable production facilities.

This is not meant as an insult, so dont take it as such, but im guessing you dont know much 40k lore do you? You could argue the orks actually have the most advanced tech in the universe. All of the orks weaponry is powered by group think, their weapons in the hand of a human wont work, the only reason their guns fire and their tanks work is because they think it works. They are a phyker powered army. Another example is commisar yarrick who wields a power claw, no human could use it, but the orks think he can use it there for he does. They can loot any IoM weapon and as long as they honestly think they can use it, it works.

NO Tau are FAR more advanced then the IoM by a long shot, they just dont have the over reaching architecture the IoM does.

again no, the strongest god in 40k is actually the ork gods gork and mork, they can dance circles around Khorne with out any problems. Another thing is you dont seem to understand how the Chaos gods came to being, they are not some force you can kill they are the manifestation of emotions in the warp. Khorne is hate violance, murder, and anger. Nurgal is rot, sickness, vile thoughts. Tzench is knowlege, power, secrets and lies. Slenesh is pain pleasure and lust. As long as these things exist, so do the gods of chaos, so chaos cant be killed. How ever, Gork and Mork can punch Khorne in the face an dethrone him as the god of it.

Again this is not an insult, but i really think you need to look up your 40k lore a bit more.

The whole thing about the Hive Fleets we've seen so far just being the Vanguard is not actually confirmed as fact, yes? It's just what some Inquisitors believe.

I'll also point out that the idea of Orks not being a threat is laughable when you consider the utter curb-stomping The Beast gave the Imperium.

 Robin5t wrote:
I'll also point out that the idea of Orks not being a threat is laughable when you consider the utter curb-stomping The Beast gave the Imperium.

And considering the only way to get rid of them is to exterminatus the whole planet they land on to keep them from growing.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
I'll also point out that the idea of Orks not being a threat is laughable when you consider the utter curb-stomping The Beast gave the Imperium.

And considering the only way to get rid of them is to exterminatus the whole planet they land on to keep them from growing.

Not true. If the infestation is minor you can get rid of them with flamers.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
I'll also point out that the idea of Orks not being a threat is laughable when you consider the utter curb-stomping The Beast gave the Imperium.

And considering the only way to get rid of them is to exterminatus the whole planet they land on to keep them from growing.

Not true. If the infestation is minor you can get rid of them with flamers.

Ture ture, but you know those pesky orks

You really need to sit down and spend more time reading the fluff. Its very clear youre equating modern humanity with 40k humanity and that just isnt how it works.

You don't have a grasp of the beauracratic machine the imperium is, the stagnation of science, that technology is now dark magic. Youre also far too convinced of the imperiums superiority. If the empire was as monolithic as you believe then there would be no 40k.

Defeating the chaos gods with science, bah, you have much to learn. Perhaps you should look up the Dark Mechanicum and see how the chaos gods treat science.

You are correct, there is no real threat to the Imperium. That is the point.

Just like East Asia, Oceania or Eurasia could never actually defeat one another (1984).

'War without end' and 'annihilation around every corner' justifies the Totalitarian, stagnant, bloated, dogmatic reign of the bureaucracy of the Imperium.

Fear rules this universe, and fear is hard currency.

Inaphyt wrote:
The orks although very devastating during a waaagh still lost to humanity and look at humanity today did it make the remotest impact?

You should probably ask a Crimson Fist, preferably one of the survivors of the Rynn's world attacks.

The problem is that newbies read a few books and they think theh know everything. What they dont know is the long history of erratas or re writes and erase of lore such as how necrons were mindless robots with 10101010 but were rewritten to have complex human personalities. Such as the Squats, such as how Dark Angels were Native American with all the feathers. How the Salamanders where actually black as in african not burnt charcoal. So much junk gets rewritten it gets more confusing than the Marvel/DC universe.

The OP demonstrates a poor knowledge of 40k lore.

Chaos is a massive threat, that coming from within, can strike anywhere and anytime. All it takes is a few moments of laxness and whole sectors of Imperial space are lost forever. Invading the Eye of Terror would be pointless. Firstly because you would surely be driven mad by the warping insanity of Chaos. Secondly because even if you conquer all of the Daemon worlds located in the Eye, it would not really affect the power of Chaos. The only way to ever defeat Chaos would be to invade the Warp and kill the Chaos Gods, which is impossible because they are well... gods.

The Tyranids are a massive threat already. Significant portions of the Imperium's border territories have already been overrun, and so far stopping Tyranid Hive Fleets has proven virtually impossible. And the currently invading Hive Fleets are only a scouting force for the actual invasion fleet that is still lurking beyond the galactic borders...

About the Necrons you are completely wrong. They are very much interested in reclaiming their former territories (that is, the entire galaxy) and once they wake up, with their huge numbers and incredible technology far outmatching humanity, they'd be able to destroy the Imperium in a heartbeat.

The Eldar may not appear much of a threat at first glance because of their low numbers, but they are Eldar. They are ancient and have great arcane powers. You can bet they are hatching some kind of sly, devious plot using ancient secrets or arcane powers. Probably one that will threaten the entire human race just for some dubious Eldar benefit.

The Tau are not a threat in any way, no, but that is not their point. The point of the Tau is that they are the naive, reasonable guys in an unreasonable universe that is filled with all kinds of huge and insane threats and things they can barely comprehend.

And while usually just a local threat, the Orks definitely can develop into an existential threat to the Imperium. Just read the War of the Beast series.

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
The problem is that newbies read a few books and they think theh know everything. What they dont know is the long history of erratas or re writes and erase of lore such as how necrons were mindless robots with 10101010 but were rewritten to have complex human personalities. Such as the Squats, such as how Dark Angels were Native American with all the feathers. How the Salamanders where actually black as in african not burnt charcoal. So much junk gets rewritten it gets more confusing than the Marvel/DC universe.

To be fair, I don't see how having a knowledge of something that's been rewritten in the canon matters to this. It's about current lore, not going back to Illiyian Nastase or Squats.

Either way, I disagree with OP for all the above reasons by other posters.

Understanding why something is rewritten tells us more about the true problem with the lore.

Reading only the current lore is like only accepting American History of the past 240 years and ignoring the Native American History.

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
Understanding why something is rewritten tells us more about the true problem with the lore.

Reading only the current lore is like only accepting American History of the past 240 years and ignoring the Native American History.

I don't follow that analogy?
With RL, history actually does have an impact, as history is set and permanent. Native history still exists and is relevant.

With a fictional setting, history and canon can be rewritten. If Squats existed before, and now never exist in the lore, how can Squats mean anything? They've been deleted, removed, and cannot have any impact on the actual setting as it is.

With RL, the past remains. With fiction, the past can be made irrelevant and removed.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


With RL, the past remains. With fiction, the past can be made irrelevant and removed.

If only this were true... :(

Seems quite relevant when discussing 40K lore.

The orks although very devastating during a waaagh still lost to humanity and look at humanity today did it make the remotest impact?

In terms of named worlds permenantly lost to or overrun by orks? (such as Golgotha, Armageddon, Tigrus, Kastorel-Novem)
Chapters functionally wiped out and forced to reconstitute from scratch - with a cost to the Imperium equivalent to founding a new chapter? (Crimson Fists, Imperial Fists)

This further raises the point that even during the orks most destructive and powerful stage of waaagh they lost against humanity so their present state could be considered a trivial threat like the tau,

Except humanity isn't anywhere near the potential it had at that point either. Yes, the Great Crusade broke the Orks at Ullanor, but the 'modern day' Imperium wouldn't have a chance of repeating the feat.

another point to raise about the orks is that their technology never develops as it's all encoded and to my understanding although IOM isn't at the level of it's golden age it still does develop it's tech which makes the next waaagh easier to overcome.

Untrue. Orks do innovate - if anything more often than humans. Their technical aptitude is hard-coded, not the design of every last possible device. Recent examples of innovation - Orkimedes developing the 'tellyporta' on Piscina and subsequently Armageddon (to the point of teleporting Gargants!) and the Psi-amplifiers invented by wierdboyz in Deathwatch and Baneblade, both of which were completely new to the Imperium (and the orks)

Further at any point during a waaagh there is the ever present risk that the waaagh will simply break down due to internal power struggles as it attracts orks some of them comparably strong to the current leader every passing second of a waaagh it's possible for it to breakdown into civil wars.

Now that is true. But generally once a Waaaggh! gets going the leadership is more or less fixed as Da Boss will increase in size and strength to match the scale of his forces....

I disagree with people overhyping the tau to my knowledge the tau are actually less technologically advanced than the IOM it's the fact that their technological level is advancing much quicker than humanity rather than them having a tech advantage it wouldn't make sense thematically them being the younger race however their growth is the scary thing whereas humanity is stagnating that was my understanding anyway.

That much is true. Tau technology is not 'better than Imperial'. It's better than common imperial - the stuff the guard get - but still behind the better imperial stuff - the sort of things the mechanicus, inquisition and astartes use. Man-sized armour providing a 2+ save, teleporters, pistols which can take out battle tanks, etc, etc.

When it comes to chaos in warhammer history gods have been killed before and is some cases used to fuel war machines i wouldn't be so sure that chaos can't be defeated and the race with the most resources? numbers? scientists? humanity, let's rephrase the question rather than can humanity obliterate chaos? of all the races in warhammer 40k who stands the best chance of developing a means to kill a chaos god? The eldar perhaps? they even have a vested interest in doing so but they haven't done so thus far, The orks likely aren't interested in such a venture. My money is on > humanity

If anyone could? Yes. But they can't. Because kiilling a chaos god isn't like killing a C'tan - the C'tan are, ultimately, beings of our universe. Incredibly powerful, but ultimately subject to laws of physics that you can hope to understand. The Chaos gods aren't, and the only warp gods to be killed have been killed by other warp gods.

As for the tyranids at great loss to the empire sure but nevertheless defeated by human hands if i'm not mistaken several times a great loss the empire what ? a pitiful army 0.1% the size of total war machine? maybe even less.

Of the entire Imperia Military? probably. But the problem is that was first contact, and they keep coming - and the numbers encountered, and their tactical sophistication is going up, not down.

The eldar was an interesting point humanity simply can't catch them i don't have a realistic answer to that if they play their cards right and simply flee forever and take fights where the IOM is not they could be a nuisance sure but what about their static worlds? If the empire showed up there there would be no defence but obliteration and i imagine at some point the eldar have to dock? maybe i'm wrong.

A Craftword? No. It's self-sustaining, and if they need access to a world they needn't go to one physically near the craftword due to the webway.

The last point is that it is true that the empire is engaged with multiple zenos on multiple fronts but that's also true of every other race for example the tau lost multiple worlds to the tyranids and fought the orks in defence of the kroot to any other race in the galaxy it's the same story for them as for humanity except they aren't a gargantuan predator with sick amounts of numbers and resources. I think we can all agree with that?

Agreed. But the problem with being the single biggest empire is that you're the one everyone ends up fighting. The Tau have fought a hive fleet and orks, but neither have they encountered a hive fleet on the scale of behemoth or an ork invasion on the scale of Waaaggh! Ghazkhull. Because, unfortunately, the fact that the Imperium occupies so many worlds means that such threats invariably end up meeting an imperial world before hitting each other (except in rare occasions, usually when they're specifically directed at one another, as in the Kryptmann Gambit).

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
Understanding why something is rewritten tells us more about the true problem with the lore.

Reading only the current lore is like only accepting American History of the past 240 years and ignoring the Native American History.

Uhh... No. This is wrong on so many levels. The old lore that has been retconned is no longer valid. Native American history is still valid. I don't quite understand why you made this analogy.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Tau are not a threat in any way, no, but that is not their point. The point of the Tau is that they are the naive, reasonable guys in an unreasonable universe that is filled with all kinds of huge and insane threats and things they can barely comprehend.

That's not the point of the Tau at all. The Tau have two jobs in the fluff of 40k:

1) To be symbolic of the countless young civilizations that are constantly rising up all over the galaxy. They don't share the Imperium's idiocy about technology, so while they might not be a civilization-ending threat to the Imperium yet in the long run Tau technology will continue to advance beyond the point where the Imperium has any chance at all. Small numbers won't matter so much when a single gun drone is capable of annihilating entire sectors worth of Imperial planets (such a trivial task would be delegated to a barely-sentient gun drone, the Tau themselves have better things to do). And if the Tau fail someone else will rise up to replace them. That's what the "kill off the Tau" people don't seem to get, if you get rid of them you just create a new faction of Tau-in-all-but-name.

2) To highlight the sheer grimdark of the setting. The Tau are not "good buys" by any reasonable definition of the concept. They're an aggressive expansionist empire that embodies the worst of real-world imperialism, manifest destiny, etc, and would be clearly evil in any other setting. They're only "good" in that they're pragmatic enough to use science and technology to build a better gun to kill you with, and to offer you a chance to surrender and accept slavery under their rule instead of mindlessly slaughtering everything in sight. And yet the Tau are the bright shining hope of the setting. As much as they suck life under anyone else is suffering on such an unimaginable scale that every citizen of the Imperium should pray for the opportunity to become Tau slaves.


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Inaphyt wrote:
i think across all the millions of systems humanity controls one bright spark can develop a means to infiltrate the eye of terror and from that point - If humanity wanted they could obliterate them out of existence.

Hahahahahahahahahahah NO. You seem to be missing a rather important fact about the Imperium: innovation is heresy. That "one bright spark" would have very little hope of avoiding being possessed by a demon and slaughtering everything and everyone they loved (as they watch helplessly while the demon uses their body) before opening the literal gate to hell through which Things Mortals Cannot Know pour through into reality and turn whole planets into horrors so bad you will pray that death takes you first. And if they somehow managed to avoid this fate they would be executed for unspeakable heresy, then their families and everyone they ever met would be given honorable executions of their own to ensure that all memory of the "bright spark" and their blasphemous works is purged from the universe.

Inaphyt wrote:
Chaos could be considered the greatest threat to humanity as it's omnipresent and dependent on emotions and i'm unsure as to if it's possible to wipe them out of existence however i think across all the millions of systems humanity controls one bright spark can develop a means to infiltrate the eye of terror and from that point - If humanity wanted they could obliterate them out of existence.

To get rid of chaos one would need to get rid of emotions. See humans(and other sentient life forms for that matter...) getting rid of emotions any time soon? Especially negative ones...

Anyway greatest threat could also be said Imperium itself. Or maybe rather inevitability. What goes up must come down. Either way IOM is going out of business eventually.

Orks and Tyranids are the biggest threat, lore wise. They're nigh unstopabble forces of nature that are too big to contain, unless by taking a drastic solution (Kryptmann).

I don't believe that in the 41st millenium Chaos should be considered a viable threat. The Gods had their chance and screwed it. They've played their hand openly 10K years earlier and now the Imperium knows about them, while their chosen warriors are fewer in number than ever before, languishing in the Eye, with inferior gear, tech and numbers. As soon as the IoM closes the Eye for good (which is possible, I think) the only realt problem with Chaos will be an occasional mad prophet and maybe a daemonic incursion or two, from time to time.

Of course GW tries to up the street cred of Chaos at every possible occasion, but telling people that "this is not our 13th (another one, damn it!) Crusade, but the last battle blah blah blah" dosen't make the threat any bigger. Just like making Abaddon competent all of a sudden. Looking at you ADB.