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Now firstly, I don't think my orcish opponent is cheating, but he may be not using everything right. I'll ballpark his list as best I can (~1100 pts)

Ironjaw warboss
5 Ironjaw 3 wound guys (nobs?)
15 General Orcs
Orc warboss on boar
Banner bearer
5 boar boys
Black orc warboss
15 black orcs (though he says he plays them as their old name, i assume as the old statline must be better)

He's cleaned house in every game, with every different opponent, and as for my games; I'm a Daemon player I figured I could atleast get mixed in with him as a choppy army myself (but I can't, so I moved from khorne to a nurgle list, and tried then a slaanesh/nurgle list) but when it comes down to it, his hero phase is two bonuses to movement, (ere we go, and something else) leading to turn 1 charges, he gets +1 attack from his general, rerolling 1's on most wound rolls and he is rerolling most saves as he has shields.

So some direction for answers see below, but please don't limit yourselves to just those if you have other feedback.

i) are shields affected by rend?
ii) Is waagh, ere we go and what ever third hero ability he is using, usable every movement turn meaning his super fast movement fully legit?
iii) Do battlion rules such as ere we go (think it was his battalion formation rule) ever expire, such as if you kill a unit or are they game long.
iv) Do you have tips for killing Orcs in AoS.
v) What reroll wounds ability is he using (rolls of 1's he rerolls)?
vi) His warbosses are relatively cheap pointswise, and still very strong, is he allowed 3 of them?

Now naturally my choices are move to shooty by investing in new models (Tzeentch), and/or focus on his warboss to knock down that additional attack. However, I'm at the point I was frustrated enough to mentally put this army in the Will Not Replay list as it feels so 'off' or 'unfair' when playing it, but I slept on it so I am looking for help figuring this out so I don't feel as taken advantage of when playing this guy.

Thanks for any help to a relatively new AoS player, who's worried he's being taken for a ride.

P.S.
My last list was a nurgle one while trying out my soulgrinder in AoS.
GUO
2x 10 Plaguebearers
3 Nurglings
3 plague drones
Herald of nurgle
Soul grinder

Hmmm. Interested to hear how this turns out... I'm a new AoS player (mostly do KoW) and I have a ton of Orcs, but this doesn't sound like the orcs I've played with!

*subscribed*

5 Ironjaw 3 wound guys (nobs?)

Brutes

i) are shields affected by rend?

If you are talking about the +1 to armor shields, yes as they are a flat bonus to armor, a 3+ armor that gets a shield is 2+, -1 rend would make it back to 3+

ii) Is waagh, ere we go and what ever third hero ability he is using, usable every movement turn meaning his super fast movement fully legit?

That's not waagh! That's Rampaging Destroyers (Waagh is another ability entirely), it lets you move D6 for units within 6" of a hero, 'Ere we go is available to use each turn so long as the 'Big Boss' is alive (Has to be a Brute or Gore-Grunta boss), and.. Not sure of the third ability actually.

iii) Do battlion rules such as ere we go (think it was his battalion formation rule) ever expire, such as if you kill a unit or are they game long.

Typically they state within the formation if they can be rid of, such as 'Ere we go is removed by killing the Big Boss.

v) What reroll wounds ability is he using (rolls of 1's he rerolls)?

Megaboss on foot within 5" of Brutes allows them to reroll one's for hits, if his Warboss on Boar has the Great Waaagh! Banner it allows for rerolls of 1 to wound for units within 16"

vi) His warbosses are relatively cheap pointswise, and still very strong, is he allowed 3 of them?

1-4 leaders for up to 1000, 1-6 up to 2000

Though some information seems.. Off, it's hard to tell what might be from the old Compodium, and new Ironjawz.

Thanks a lot for replying.

another question.

With shields he rerolls a failed save with 5+? Sounds like this may not be the case from what you are saying. I was curious as any wound in combat even with 1 or 2 rend meaning a save of 6 or nothing in many cases would be followed up with a 5+ shield save. Not the most overpowered ability, but made his guys alot more survivable when they do functionally what my Plaguebearer's do with their 5+ wound negation while I have half the attacks for a similar price cost.

I think I got waaagh and Rampaging Destroyers mixed up. So it seems the movement stuff is clean. For 'Ere we go, for clarification, you need brute or boarrider as your boss? As in if he picked his mega boss as the general, he has to forgo 'ere we go?

As for reroll to wounds, can you have the great waagh banner on a foot slogger (I assume this was some minor warboss) for it to work? Or is it a commander trait or relic?

I appreciate your help. It looks like he isn't doing anything greatly wrong. Tactics would be the next step, however he really doesn't have any ...lol or maybe I should say he doesn't need any. He lines his mob straight across the table width and charges. Once he makes contact they just proceed to kick the daylights out of everything. Even with his black orcs and the black orc warboss sidetracked for 2 turns he proceeded to wipe me out gleefully (maybe ~20% of his force missing against all mine).






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pancakeonions wrote:
Hmmm. Interested to hear how this turns out... I'm a new AoS player (mostly do KoW) and I have a ton of Orcs, but this doesn't sound like the orcs I've played with!

*subscribed*

Aye, I'm the same, I'm a 10-15 year vet of 40k and fantasy, and have both an orc (shelved as I don't like repeat armies in the same small club) and an ork army. This AoS orc is very different then I'm used to. Very fast, with a possible (lucky) 12 inch move in heroic phase (iirc 'ere we go is d6), followed by 5 inches in the movement phase and with a lucky 2d6 roll on the charge, they are like how I always pictured termagants. In combat they are attacking twice what khorne bloodletters can, and with AoS the statline for a model is independent of what they attack, therefore they can attack a plague-bearer or a greater unclean one with equal skill and chance. I have to hide my GUO and use him tactically as even putting him up against a moderate sized orc boy unit swamps him in wounds in one turn.

And all this without the two things that always offset our cheap but nice and choppy models: no animosity and no quirkiness/randomness (which honestly I have always loved about orcs/orks).

Honestly, it is a good time to be an orc player. I should just bite the bullet and hop on the pain train after suffering for years with mediocre codexes, but alas my ego won't allow it.

With shields he rerolls a failed save with 5+?

It's hard knowing which ones your talking about, 'Ardboy shields give a free 6+ to save.

I was curious as any wound in combat even with 1 or 2 rend meaning a save of 6 or nothing in many cases would be followed up with a 5+ shield save.

Ah I see where you might be confused, the 'Ardboy'z shields grant a free 6+ to save the wound before the actual save roll of the unit, So in the case it would be roll 6+, if you have -1 rend it'd be a followup of a 5+ save. If however he is rolling his NORMAL armour save as his shield save, but it goes up with rend, then that's wrong.

For 'Ere we go, for clarification, you need brute or boarrider as your boss? As in if he picked his mega boss as the general, he has to forgo 'ere we go?

To clarify, this is not the General A 'Big Boss' is a unit within the warscroll. A Brute or Gore-Grunta unit has a 'Champion' which if selected becomes a Big Boss, they gain +2 wounds and they become the 'Big Boss' of the warscroll, which means if that unit Champion now dies, they lose 'ere we go. Just to note the 'Ere we go only works for the units selected from the Warscroll, which would ONLY be from a selection of Brutes, Gore-gruntas, and 'Ardboyz, none other would recieve this benefit aside from them, not other ironjawz units like the Warboss, and definitely not the Black Orcs/Normal Orcs

As for reroll to wounds, can you have the great waagh banner on a foot slogger (I assume this was some minor warboss) for it to work? Or is it a commander trait or relic?

It's an item, it replaces the Warboss on Boar's weapon, you can infact take it on a foot slogging Orc Warboss (To clarify, this is NOT a MegaBoss, this is the Warboss from this scroll https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-orcs-and-goblins-en.pdf so it would NEVER be on an Ironjaw Megaboss)

(iirc 'ere we go is d6)

Yes, do remember however that after Destroyers Rampage and 'Ere we go they cannot run (still charge tho)

Do remember that all the Warscrolls are online (cept the formations) so you can freely check out what unit does what, you'll be missing the allegiance stuff from the Generals Handbook, and from the Iron Jawz Battletome, but I'll freely help here when I can.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-DK/Warhammer?N=102274+4294965181&Nu=product.repositoryId&qty=12&sorting=rec&view=table&categoryId=cat440002a-flat&_requestid=4082752

There is a lot going on here, and you need to go over each warscroll with your opponent because while he could be getting any of the bonuses mentioned he could not be getting all of them.

He cannot use the Black Ork warscroll in place of 'Ardboyz because the points were assigned to the latter warscroll, which is notably weaker than the previous version.

The 'Ere we go bonus is from a battalion that must be bought using points in addition to meeting its requirements.

But most importantly, Matched Play can be min-maxed into ridiculousness. It is not a magic bullet that makes everything balanced and players should still work with each other to ensure their lists are on approximately the same power level. It may simply be a matter of getting him to tone his list back or improving your own.

He cannot use the Black Ork warscroll in place of 'Ardboyz because the points were assigned to the latter warscroll, which is notably weaker than the previous version.

Huh, and here I thought they still had points, I know I saw the Black Orc Warboss had it earlier as well

The Black Orc Warboss warscroll got dropped completely when they updated the grand alliances, while the Black Orcs warscroll was altered to become the Ardboyz warscroll. Thus the 'boss has a cost in the legacy section but basic Black Orcs do not.

Something else I just noticed is the above list doesn't have the required 2 battleline units. The regular orruks make for one, but the ardboyz, brutes, and boar boyz aren't battleline by default.

Fwiw I doubt this player is outright cheating but there's enough mistakes that I think its a case of skimming the rules & profiles and making some beneficial assumptions.

Thanks again guys.

I can find the 'ard boys warscroll online, any idea what the black orc warscroll was? Curious if it is a big enough difference that I have to argue against him using the old warscroll with the new price as 'gaming the system'.

He is not paying for his formation, but even then it is likely only 100 pts, not quite enough to explain his facerolling of the entire club. I think he is using either the boarboyz or the 'ardboys as battleline troops, but I haven't figured out allegiances completely myself. What percentage of the models have to be one army type (ie ironjaws) before you can count 'ard boys as battleline?.

I'll have to learn about the specific range of some of these abilities as he seems to be rerolling wounds rolls with everyone. I don't think he is straight cheating, however there is enough odd things popping up I do worry he is being disingenuous. Whether truly ignorant or not, may be hard to figure out. I was hoping to not have to police army lists, especially for AoS which I thought would be a more flexible and easy going ruleset. However, I am the club organizer so I guess this is my responsibility to referee this, even with my relatively recent foray into AoS. Ugh. Guess I have to learn the in and outs of his list and forgo my weekly game on warhammer night.

Also, as an aside, When charging units through gaps, how tight is too tight for him to move through. He managed to literally squeeze his warboss through a gap by turning him sideways and rotating him around another model of a different unit. Curious as bases no longer matter for AoS.

I can find the 'ard boys warscroll online, any idea what the black orc warscroll was? Curious if it is a big enough difference that I have to argue against him using the old warscroll with the new price as 'gaming the system'.

Black Orcs is in the old Orcs and Goblins Legacy Warscroll here. https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-orcs-and-goblins-en.pdf

I think he is using either the boarboyz or the 'ardboys as battleline troops, but I haven't figured out allegiances completely myself. What percentage of the models have to be one army type (ie ironjaws) before you can count 'ard boys as battleline?.

You need 2+ at 1000, 2000+ is 3+, and 2500 is 4+. 'Ardboyz come in units of 10 so you'd need at least 30 (in three separate groups), Allegiance rules require an entire group as part of an army, thus to be IronJawz allegiance it can only have Ironjawz, having a Black orc Warboss or Orc warboss is not Ironjawz allegiance.

Here's some help for you at least, here are all the warscrolls for units within his army (That aren't already within the Old Orcs and goblins warscroll)

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-orruk-ardboyz-en.pdf
https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-orruk-goregruntas-en.pdf
https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-orruk-brutes-en.pdf
https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-orruk-megaboss-en.pdf

As said, all the rules are on the GW site under each model, just find the 'rules' tab, it may be best to figure out what his army can actually do if there's some discrepancies.

Paeern wrote:not quite enough to explain his facerolling of the entire club.

Destro is a very strong faction (largely due to that fakking Destroyers rule), and extremely popular at tournaments. It can be beaten, especially once you've been one-shotted by it and seen how it works (speaking from experience), and frankly there are much worse lists than your boy here. IMO Ogres do it much better than Orcs, but I haven't faced too many greenskins in AOS yet.

As you're gathering, however, there are certainly things he needs to address in his list ...

Ironjaw warboss
5 Ironjaw 3 wound guys (nobs?)
15 General Orcs
Orc warboss on boar
Banner bearer
5 boar boys
Black orc warboss
15 black orcs

... including:

a) Cut back to 1000 points, if that's the points y'all are playing (or expand to a larger agreed value; 1100 seems pretty strange and just keeps him from making choices)
b) Take a second Battleline unit, to become a legal army (most likely involves taking 2x 10 Orcs)
c) Use the updated 'Ard Boyz warscroll, as the old one is not included in Matched Play (i.e. it has no points)
d) Take units in multiples of their warscroll unit sizes, unless y'all have house ruled a way to take fractions (i.e. Orcs are purchased in groups of 10, not 5)

All of these changes will result in an army that's a) legal; and b) less min/maxed, as it requires making concessions, which is like the opposite of listbuilding for raw efficiency. It will still be a good army with impressive synergy, but he will find his resources stretched thin. He will of course get his stuff back with more points ... but he'll need more battleline units, his opponents will get more points, etc, etc.

Also, as an aside, When charging units through gaps, how tight is too tight for him to move through. He managed to literally squeeze his warboss through a gap by turning him sideways and rotating him around another model of a different unit. Curious as bases no longer matter for AoS.

It must be a rare group that doesn't play with bases ... Technically I guess the answer is 'his model can't touch your models' once he's actually making the charge move. Movement itself restricts his model from moving within 3" of yours, but I don't believe charging cares. Particularly as charging isn't done in a straight line and has nothing to do with seeing your target - which as a vet must feel as insane to you as it does to me.

EDIT
For total sh!ts, this is probably where I'd take his list:

Orruk Megaboss
Orruk Warboss w/ Banner
Black Orc Big Boss
Moonclan Grot Shaman

05 Orruk Brutes
10 Orruk Ardboyz
10 Orruks
10 Orruks
----------
1000

Dropped everything on a pig because points, picked up magic because tactical variety and/or 60 points left

- Salvage

He isn't meeting the battalion's minimum requirements, nor will it affect models outside the battalion (read: most of his army). Suffice it to say there's at least a half-size things wrong here and you will unfortunately need to break it down by warscroll because he is basically cheating even if he doesn't realize it.

Sidenote, Destruction isnt powerful so much as Beastclaws are.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Sidenote, Destruction isnt powerful so much as Beastclaws are.

When I had my gribbly blue butt handed to me Turn 1, the only Beastclaw was the thundertusk insta-gibbing my burning chariots

#butdon'tgetmewrong #thundertusks #nerforban

- Salvage

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The Black Orc Warboss warscroll got dropped completely when they updated the grand alliances, while the Black Orcs warscroll was altered to become the Ardboyz warscroll. Thus the 'boss has a cost in the legacy section but basic Black Orcs do not.

Something else I just noticed is the above list doesn't have the required 2 battleline units. The regular orruks make for one, but the ardboyz, brutes, and boar boyz aren't battleline by default.

Fwiw I doubt this player is outright cheating but there's enough mistakes that I think its a case of skimming the rules & profiles and making some beneficial assumptions.

you can use Black Orcs warscroll and point for ardboyz.

based on this FAQ
https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Errata/warhammer_aos_rules_en.pdf
.
It said If you have two different warscrolls for the same unit,You can choose which warscroll to use.

and I asked about Black Orcs problem.

GW answer like this.


Hello,

Thank you for your email. The Black Orcs are now listed in the General's Handbook as Orruk Ard Boyz under the destruction Grand Alliance.

I hope this helps and if you have any further queries, please let us know.

Kind regards

Owen Douglas

OLDGUN wrote:

you can use Black Orcs warscroll and point for ardboyz.

based on this FAQ
https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Errata/warhammer_aos_rules_en.pdf
.

That FAQ predates the General's Handbook and is intended for open play. There are several questions and answers in that fact that are very clearly NOT how the rules function in matched play. For example, that FAQ also says that rolls can be made automatically successful (which is not the case in matched play) and that you can take multiples of named special characters (also not the case in matched play. I don't think we can assume that any answers in that FAQ that relate to army selection and composition can be applied to matched play.

It's also a very TFG move, obviously exploiting a technicality for advantage.