Size of a Planetary Defence Force

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**Machs**

Hi vereyone, I am writing a background story for my armies (Space Marines and IG), both about a single sub-sector. I was wondering about the actual numbers/percentage of armed people there may be under Imperial Commander's direct orders; this number/percentage should be composed of not only the Planetary Defence Force (in my setting an efficient army) but also of local police/gendarmerie/paramilitary.
What about a population of around 10 bilions? And what may be the amount of elite troops (i.e. already fit for the recruitment into the Imperial Guard)?

**Baldeagle91**

Machs wrote:
Hi vereyone, I am writing a background story for my armies (Space Marines and IG), both about a single sub-sector. I was wondering about the actual numbers/percentage of armed people there may be under Imperial Commander's direct orders; this number/percentage should be composed of not only the Planetary Defence Force (in my setting an efficient army) but also of local police/gendarmerie/paramilitary.
What about a population of around 10 bilions? And what may be the amount of elite troops (i.e. already fit for the recruitment into the Imperial Guard)?

It depends on the planet and it's defence needs. For example the entire cadian population is pretty much in the PDF force. Also while in theory the Imperial Guard are suppose to be of a certain quality, the very fact some planets send untrained gangers, convicts and conscripts suggests otherwise. Many planets will also keep their best forces for themselves, it's even noted in the various Guard/AM codexes that the idea that the Imperial Guard are more 'elite' than PDF forces is a half truth.

**Machs**

Well, I have to point that my planet would be the average-industrialized-planet of Nikkeldepain (cit.) where the 4th Nikkeldepainian is recruited from. I.e. I would estimate an average percentage for an average planet exposed to average threats... it is a strange calculation, I know. I previously estimated a 0.1% of IG-ready troops, another 2% of PDF and 3-5% of paramilitary/police and similar.

**Polonius**

1-5% is certainly reasonable. Doing some back of the napkin calcuations, France had about 2.7 million men activated in World War II, from top line divisions down to garrison and reserve divisions, out of a population of about 42 million. This was an industrialized nation that was ready for a war, which would be roughly in line with a planet that could reasonably expect mass invasion.

The fluff is quiet about if PDFs have reserves, but it seems unlikely that they would not. Standing armies would be of higher quality, as they would train full time. Even with pretty stringent entrance requirements and the cost of equipment, an industrial planet could easily field a few percent of it's population as PDF, either standing or quick reserves.

**jhe90**

Polonius wrote:
1-5% is certainly reasonable. Doing some back of the napkin calcuations, France had about 2.7 million men activated in World War II, from top line divisions down to garrison and reserve divisions, out of a population of about 42 million. This was an industrialized nation that was ready for a war, which would be roughly in line with a planet that could reasonably expect mass invasion.

The fluff is quiet about if PDFs have reserves, but it seems unlikely that they would not. Standing armies would be of higher quality, as they would train full time. Even with pretty stringent entrance requirements and the cost of equipment, an industrial planet could easily field a few percent of it's population as PDF, either standing or quick reserves.

You also could have space Israel as such.
Everyone does x years service, some will join and enlist after in more senior and skilled roles. And or elite units.
Officers will be long time sign ups and the regular troops are citizens doing there planetary service.

**Skinflint Games**

Polonius wrote:

The fluff is quiet about if PDFs have reserves, but it seems unlikely that they would not. Standing armies would be of higher quality, as they would train full time. Even with pretty stringent entrance requirements and the cost of equipment, an industrial planet could easily field a few percent of it's population as PDF, either standing or quick reserves.

The novel Titanicus mentions a tertiary PDF reserve, so you have to figure there's a primary and secondary as well, at least for most developed worlds (the novel is set in the Forge World of Orestes)

**Gobbla**

Direct comparisons with modern Terra bring up interesting considerations. You could count up the number of military personnel in each of the World's armies for a planet of around 7 billion. But, unlike a homogeneous Imperial planet, ALL of those modern militaries are there to defend against other Terran militaries. Then again, large portions of this World's militaries are not siphoned off planet to go fight Xenos threats.

The upper limits of peacetime have to be close to North Korea, which has an insane 25% of its 25 million population in regular or reserve service in its military. Your planet has a population 400 times larger.

**Machs**

Gobbla wrote:
Direct comparisons with modern Terra bring up interesting considerations. You could count up the number of military personnel in each of the World's armies for a planet of around 7 billion. But, unlike a homogeneous Imperial planet, ALL of those modern militaries are there to defend against other Terran militaries. Then again, large portions of this World's militaries are not siphoned off planet to go fight Xenos threats.

The upper limits of peacetime have to be close to North Korea, which has an insane 25% of its 25 million population in regular or reserve service in its military. Your planet has a population 400 times larger.

On the other hand, a planet has to be self-sufficient in defence: it cannot be like Vatican, for example, but must dedicate a substantial quota.
I do not think that 25% of a population dedicated only to military duties is a sustainable quota.

**locarno24**

Skinflint Games wrote:
Polonius wrote:

The fluff is quiet about if PDFs have reserves, but it seems unlikely that they would not. Standing armies would be of higher quality, as they would train full time. Even with pretty stringent entrance requirements and the cost of equipment, an industrial planet could easily field a few percent of it's population as PDF, either standing or quick reserves.

The novel Titanicus mentions a tertiary PDF reserve, so you have to figure there's a primary and secondary as well, at least for most developed worlds (the novel is set in the Forge World of Orestes)

Indeed. One of the main characters is a member (and was allowed to settle on the world on a condition of joining as - unlike her husband - she lacked any specific needed industrial skill). Given the description of the level of training they've had, it's essentially "weekend warrior" national guard/territorials or even less.

There is no specific mandated size for a PDF, SDF (system defence fleet) or Magistratum (police) beyond an administratum/arbites dictat to 'keep order' and protect the planet. A governor is permitted to maintain whatever he can afford to and thinks is appropriate.

Theoretically the Imperial guard Tithe is the best 10% of the PDF when called up (in reality it's probably percentiles two through eleven because most Lord Governors aren't totally stupid and like having a competent personal guard).

It will very much depend on the world and what threats it expects to face.

**HaRpEr**

If it helps, in the Gaunts Ghosts novel Necropolis, the standing army for the hive at the centre of the story is half a million strong.

**Machs**

Every bit of fluff helps.

**Flinty**

Machs wrote:
Gobbla wrote:
Direct comparisons with modern Terra bring up interesting considerations. You could count up the number of military personnel in each of the World's armies for a planet of around 7 billion. But, unlike a homogeneous Imperial planet, ALL of those modern militaries are there to defend against other Terran militaries. Then again, large portions of this World's militaries are not siphoned off planet to go fight Xenos threats.

The upper limits of peacetime have to be close to North Korea, which has an insane 25% of its 25 million population in regular or reserve service in its military. Your planet has a population 400 times larger.
On the other hand, a planet has to be self-sufficient in defence: it cannot be like Vatican, for example, but must dedicate a substantial quota.
I do not think that 25% of a population dedicated only to military duties is a sustainable quota.

"Military duties" covers a lot of ground though. Engineering corps could do all civil and construction works. Military schools for edumacation. All air transport and civil policing run by military personnel etc. I'm pretty sure that in NK the military ends up doing quite a lot of farming...

**Machs**

Flinty wrote:

"Military duties" covers a lot of ground though. Engineering corps could do all civil and construction works. Military schools for edumacation. All air transport and civil policing run by military personnel etc. I'm pretty sure that in NK the military ends up doing quite a lot of farming...

Therefore they cannot train or do exercises... i.e. they are workers with military status. Defintively not combat or combat support.

**jhe90**

Machs wrote:
Flinty wrote:

"Military duties" covers a lot of ground though. Engineering corps could do all civil and construction works. Military schools for edumacation. All air transport and civil policing run by military personnel etc. I'm pretty sure that in NK the military ends up doing quite a lot of farming...
Therefore they cannot train or do exercises... i.e. they are workers with military status. Defintively not combat or combat support.

In that regard there basically weekend warriors.
Not active duty if there not on military duties actively.

**Spetulhu**

jhe90 wrote:

In that regard there basically weekend warriors.
Not active duty if there not on military duties actively.

The level of training will vary between worlds just as much as the size of the PDF.

Cadia is basically Space Israel turned to eleven (or twelve) with everyone doing at least a four-year tour of service and over 70% of the population in service all the time. I'd wager a guess that even those Cadians that aren't on active duty would outclass most other PDF forces if called up.

Some peaceful out-of-the-way agriworld might get away with only the governor's personal guard active while the few PDF Reserve regiments train three times a year or even less. They might not even have to tithe IG regiments if the food production is important enough for supplying a nearby Hive or Forge world.

A Space Marine recruiting world often lacks the population or tech to raise a PDF (part of the plan to make sure marines don't get ideas above their station), relying entirely on the Chapter for local defense.

So basically anything between the extreme points could be explained when making a fluffy background for a world.

**jhe90**

Spetulhu wrote:
jhe90 wrote:

In that regard there basically weekend warriors.
Not active duty if there not on military duties actively.

The level of training will vary between worlds just as much as the size of the PDF.

Cadia is basically Space Israel turned to eleven (or twelve) with everyone doing at least a four-year tour of service and over 70% of the population in service all the time. I'd wager a guess that even those Cadians that aren't on active duty would outclass most other PDF forces if called up.

Some peaceful out-of-the-way agriworld might get away with only the governor's personal guard active while the few PDF Reserve regiments train three times a year or even less. They might not even have to tithe IG regiments if the food production is important enough for supplying a nearby Hive or Forge world.

A Space Marine recruiting world often lacks the population or tech to raise a PDF (part of the plan to make sure marines don't get ideas above their station), relying entirely on the Chapter for local defense.

So basically anything between the extreme points could be explained when making a fluffy background for a world.

[/quote

That was in north Korea context. If you work other jobs, your not full time soldier

Cadia. Yes there PDF is better trained and geared than regular guard regiments at timed, and the reserves are regularly drilled and prepared.

Space marines. Yeah, but the marine fortress and fleet severly put off casual raiders

**Flinty**

Machs wrote:
Flinty wrote:

"Military duties" covers a lot of ground though. Engineering corps could do all civil and construction works. Military schools for edumacation. All air transport and civil policing run by military personnel etc. I'm pretty sure that in NK the military ends up doing quite a lot of farming...
Therefore they cannot train or do exercises... i.e. they are workers with military status. Defintively not combat or combat support.

US Army Corps of Engineers and the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers and similar units would probably object to that definition. Also given that 25% of the posited population is under arms they can probably afford to rotate units through training and public service rotas. Its not like real world units are undergoing intensive combat training constantly.

**jhe90**

However when your labouring on a farm most of the time

That is different to working on civil projects as engineer.

**Spetulhu**

jhe90 wrote:
However when your labouring on a farm most of the time, That is different to working on civil projects as engineer.

Agreed, but constructing bridges (for example) would be right proper training for military engineering troops. IIRC the South Koreans did that sort of thing. Their dictator General Park had the army build a dam and when he wasn't pleased with it he had them blow it up.

**Gobbla**

North Korea is an extreme example, but it receives a lot of aid from China. In return, it's a buffer with South Korea. Imperial Japan was even more extreme. It was North Korea led by generals. Maybe the most militarized modern nation, ever. It was sustained by imports from it's colonized territories. Or, another model is Victorian England. It had a modest, but very professional, specialized army, and a powerful navy which allowed it to control numerous colonies around the globe. Those examples could be transposed to a planetary system, or a local region.

**Iracundus**

The 5th edition rulebook, on page 115, gives the example of the Hive World of Minea. Population: 154 billion. Imperial garrison 2 million (this is presumably Imperial Guard). Annual planetary draft 1.249 million (I am interpreting this to be drafted into the Guard so 10% of the PDF). If only 10% of the PDF are drafted into the Guard, then that means the PDF for Minea should be about 12.49 million.

12.49 million/154 billion = ~0.8% of the population under arms. 0.9% if you include the Imperial garrison of 2 million.

Using Creed's 8th Cadian as the size of an average regiment (about 8,000 men) then that PDF of 12.49 million is about 1,561 regiments.

**Machs**

Iracundus wrote:
The 5th edition rulebook, on page 115, gives the example of the Hive World of Minea. Population: 154 billion. Imperial garrison 2 million (this is presumably Imperial Guard). Annual planetary draft 1.249 million (I am interpreting this to be drafted into the Guard so 10% of the PDF). If only 10% of the PDF are drafted into the Guard, then that means the PDF for Minea should be about 12.49 million.

12.49 million/154 billion = ~0.8% of the population under arms. 0.9% if you include the Imperial garrison of 2 million.

Using Creed's 8th Cadian as the size of an average regiment (about 8,000 men) then that PDF of 12.49 million is about 1,561 regiments.

Well, at the end of both World War I and World War II, most European countries (including Italy, which was the defeated-but-not-crushed-one) maintained around the 1% of their population under arms.
I think it may be a feasible percentage.