Will Poland impose a total ban on abortion? (BBC)

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**Co'tor Shas**

The touchstone issue of abortion has reared its head once again at the centre of Polish politics.
There were opposing demonstrations outside Poland's parliament on Friday as it debated a motion to ban abortion outright. If passed, Poland would join just two other European states that ban the procedure - Malta and the Vatican City.
In this staunchly Catholic nation, the issue inflames huge passions on both sides.
What is the current situation?
Abortion is already mostly banned. The only exceptions are a severe and irreversible damage to the foetus, a serious threat to the mother's health, or the pregnancy is the result of rape or incest.
As a result, even by conservative estimates there are far more illegal abortions than legal ones in Poland - between 10,000 and 150,000, compared to about 1,000 or 2,000 legal terminations.
Access to contraception has also been tightened. The only over-the-counter contraception now available is the condom.
Who are the anti-abortion activists and what do they want?
The main group is called Stop Abortion. They demand a total ban with no exceptions even if the life or well-being of the mother is endangered. Their petition calling for a ban attracted 450,000 signatures, triggering Friday's debate in parliament, where their motion was sent to a committee for further consideration.
Stop Abortion argues that human life starts at conception and should be protected from that moment. The government does not officially back its view, but figures such as Prime Minister Beata Szydlo and the deputy justice minister Patryk Jaki have indicated it has their personal support.
Under the proposed new legislation, abortion would be punishable with an five-year prison term. Doctors already risk punishment if they are found to have carried out an illegal termination, but under the new legislation all doctors performing abortions would be criminalised.
Conservative Catholic weekly Gosc Niedzielny quoted Joanna Banasiuk, a university lawyer and activist, telling parliament that abortion is the "butchering of innocent children, hell for women and moral bankruptcy for men".
What is the Catholic Church's role in all this?
The influence of the church is indirect but significant. No parliamentary party has the word "Catholic" or "Christian" in its name, but 87% of the nation declare to be Roman Catholic. If you want to find the roots of the Polish conscience you need to look in the Vatican, say some. And although the ruling Law and Justice part (PIS) does not follow Church teachings blindly, a significant section of its supporters are religious.
Others argue that the Church's influence on the nation is waning. Attendance at Sunday mass has dropped below 40%. More Poles are willing, these days, to challenge the moral leadership of the Church.
Who are the pro-choice activists and what do they want?
The main group, Save the Women, argue that the current law is already extremely restrictive. They are supported by Poland's main opposition party, Nowoczesna (Modern), which argues that current regulations are "medieval", drive abortion underground and deny pregnant women choice - except for more affluent women, who are able to afford to go abroad for terminations.
Coat-hangers representing back-street abortions were a regular feature of protests earlier in the year; recent web-based protests have seen women posting pictures of themselves wearing black mourning clothes, symbolising the death of choice and their own futures.
Save the Women's Barbara Nowacka said that to reduce the number of illegal abortions the state needs to introduce "sex education, state-funded contraception... and [better] access to doctors as well as the right to abortion".
The pro-choice movement also garnered enough signatures (about 250,000) to see their proposals debated by parliament - but it immediately struck the motion out.
Left-wing TOK-FM radio claims the abortion issue is cynically used for political profit.
What about public opinion?
Most polls suggest that between two-thirds and three-quarters of people would prefer to leave the things as they are.
Watch: Moves to ban abortion in Poland are dividing opinion
So what happens next?
Although there are vocal supporters of the total abortion ban in the PIS party, the government itself is facing a dilemma over the bill. It doesn't want to antagonise its Catholic supporters by opposing Stop Abortion's motion. But it could trigger a public outcry if it goes ahead with it.
One prediction is that the government is likely to park the issue for as long as possible with the parliamentary committee which is currently considering it.
But some are taking matters into their own hands - with or without legislative backing. In the south-eastern region of Podkarpackie - where PIS and the Church enjoy unusually high support - hospitals and doctors have signed a "declaration of conscience" and are refusing to carry out any abortions, in effect removing legal abortion as an option in the region.
What's the picture on abortion elsewhere in Europe?
European countries are among the world's most pro-choice when it comes to abortion.
There are exceptions: Malta and Vatican City are among six countries worldwide where abortion is banned outright under law. There are severe restrictions in Ireland, Northern Ireland (where the law differs from the rest of the UK), San Marino, Liechtenstein and Andorra.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37449903

Looks like there's going to be a big protest soon too.

**Frazzled**

Their country, their call.

**General Annoyance**

Leaving it as it is sounds reasonable, as a full ban would stop rape victims from receiving any help, or those who are medically endangered.

However, I think it's best to take things on a case by case basis regarding this issue - there isn't always a clear answer when it comes to the reasons for abortion; I think it'd be better if doctors hear out each case and make a call based on what they find out.

A full ban would definitely be inconsiderate of people who did not want pregnancy or have found it too damaging to their physical health.

G.A

**whembly**

Frazzled wrote:
Their country, their call.

Yup.

Since abortion is "mostly banned"... I wonder if there's this catastrophe of single-mothers, adoptions and whatnot. I'm not coming up with anything in google...

**redleger**

Funny story: Poland is my last name, and I literally initially read that all kinds of fethed up.
Background: in my job we go by last names.

**feeder**

redleger wrote:
Funny story: Poland is my last name, and I literally initially read that all kinds of fethed up.
Background: in my job we go by last names.

Any relation to former Megadeth guitarist?

Poland gave us the ultimate underdog resistance heroes, fighting both the Nazis and the Soviets against incredible odds; they also gave us the genre's gold standard game, the Witcher series.

Now this. Poland, you were on such a hot streak...

**redleger**

feeder wrote:
redleger wrote:
Funny story: Poland is my last name, and I literally initially read that all kinds of fethed up.
Background: in my job we go by last names.

Any relation to former Megadeth guitarist?

Poland gave us the ultimate underdog resistance heroes, fighting both the Nazis and the Soviets against incredible odds; they also gave us the genre's gold standard game, the Witcher series.

Now this. Poland, you were on such a hot streak...

He is from South Texas as am I, however I have never seen him at any family reunions!

**Iron_Captain**

In my opinion, and I know I am conservative in this, abortion should only be allowed if it is neccessary to save the life of the mother. I think the proposed ban in Poland is a great idea except for the part where it is also banned if the mother's life is threatened. If the mother dies you will lose 2 lives. If you execute an abortion you will lose only 1, which is bad but still preferable to losing 2 lives.

**AllSeeingSkink**

Poland is 87% Roman Catholic? Wow, that's huge.

**timetowaste85**

I'm in the same camp as G.A. A full ban is bad for those who could die during childbirth and rape victims. It makes it even worse for those who have already endured so much hardship. But as a form of birth control...they should do whatever they feel is appropriate.

**nou**

As a Pole, I can give you some insight on what is going on right now: the subject of abortion was a "distraction subject" in polish politics since mid-'90. It is now proceeded in parliament, because of citizen initiative, not goverment action. We had a political shift last fall, so there is huuuuuge agenda by those who have lost the elections to picture Poland in the most bad light possible in the eyes of the international public opinion. We had this recurring abortion hysteria every few years, because citizen initiative requires only a 100k people signing it to be put to vote.

This abortion law has very low probability of being passed, as even most conservative individuals in ruling party (like Gowin for example) are aware, that changing the current law ("the tough compromise" as it is called here) will upset the public opinion more than it does now. We have a near 50-50 split of pro- and anti- aborion minded people here, so in the very unlikely outcome of this new ban passing, the current "compromise" will be restored as soon as the governing party changes.

As I see it (and as many, many others here see it) it is used now as a smokescreen for CETA approval and as a vent for social unrest after last years elections. So realy no need to panic, that we will be a modern Romania with 100% ban on abortion... But of course, there is a slight chance, that this law will pass, as we have indeed a very conservative society, which was forcefully "modernized" over the last decade, with a strong focus on deconstructing any and all patriotic and conservatice sentiments and create a "european society". And the shift after last years elections shows, that (as usual in Poland) this notion had an exactly oposite outcome...

And as a sidenote: this "~90% roman catholic" thing is not true - this is a number of baptised citizens in Poland, an official number used by our catholic church to justify it's influence. Not an actual number of people living by the word of god... We probably have less "faith devoted people" here than UK or US. It's just that we are mono-religious society, so it is customary to baptize children as roman catholics...

**General Annoyance**

Iron_Captain wrote:
In my opinion, and I know I am conservative in this, abortion should only be allowed if it is neccessary to save the life of the mother. I think the proposed ban in Poland is a great idea except for the part where it is also banned if the mother's life is threatened. If the mother dies you will lose 2 lives. If you execute an abortion you will lose only 1, which is bad but still preferable to losing 2 lives.

Sounds fairly reasonable; what about rape victims though?

I will rephrase from my original post that power should be given to doctors and GP's to make the decision to carry out an abortion. If a couple were careless enough to not use contraception, then they should be denied. A couple that did use contraception that still ended up in pregnancy should be considered.

I'm paedophobic, and I'd probably have a heart attack if I ended up impregnating a girl unintentionally. A law like this would force me to take on a responsibility that I fear immensely.

**A Town Called Malus**

This law would also only really affect the poorer people of Poland. Those with the income could just travel over the border to Germany or the Czech Repuplic to get an abortion.

**Herzlos**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
This law would also only really affect the poorer people of Poland. Those with the income could just travel over the border to Germany or the Czech Repuplic to get an abortion.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Not only is it an oppressive (potential) law, it's largely pointless as it'll just encourage operation tourism or drive it underground.

**whispered_war**

I've had to study abortion for my ethics portion of religious studies at college, so can see pros and cons of banning it, especially from the religious aspect.

However, one person's opinions and beliefs shouldn't stop someone else making their own choice. I personally doubt I'd ever want an abortion, regardless of the matter - does that mean I'd tell someone else they weren't allowed one? Of course not! While I understand and respect the catholic belief of ensoulment, brain activity in a foetus doesn't technically begin until 12 weeks - giving you enough time to take a pill, as they can only be taken up to 9 weeks. This would still be a fairly strict rule, but may be the closest Poland could get to a compromise, I guess?

If you take a look at some catholic beliefs, the occasional one will allow an abortion for rape victims, but they do usually head for the sanctity of life VS the quality of life. But taking a look at that: as previously discussed, the poorer people of the country would really only be the people effected if a ban were to come into place... aka the people who would give a child a poor quality of life due to unstable living conditions one a new member of the family arrives.

So, perhaps a narrow time limit on abortion would work, unless there are special conditions involved eg rape victim who was unaware of a pregnancy, or, like in the UK, a child has a disability which will affect the quality of the child's life?

Either way, a strict regime or a ban altogether will result in either a poorer economy as the children can't be cared for, or medical issues as people have attempted a backstreet abortion. Neither option is a great one to have.

**nou**

whispered_war wrote:

So, perhaps a narrow time limit on abortion would work, unless there are special conditions involved eg rape victim who was unaware of a pregnancy, or, like in the UK, a child has a disability which will affect the quality of the child's life?

This is (approximately) the current state of the abortion law in Poland - it is permitted if there are medical reasons - mother's life in danger or severe fetus deformation/disability/genetic flaws; or if it is a result of rape (to be precise: "if it is a result of an illegal action", so incest pregnancies count too). The whole problem with abortion debate in Poland is, as I have said earlier, the result of highly polarised society, but approximately equal in strenght pro- and anti- abortion movements. From political standpoint this is somehow similiar to "mexican standoff"... Last week we had two opposite legislations voted (for further proceeding) - one banning and one liberating abortion...

**AlmightyWalrus**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
This law would also only really affect the poorer people of Poland. Those with the income could just travel over the border to Germany or the Czech Repuplic to get an abortion.

IIRC the suggested change would make that illegal too.

**A Town Called Malus**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
This law would also only really affect the poorer people of Poland. Those with the income could just travel over the border to Germany or the Czech Repuplic to get an abortion.

IIRC the suggested change would make that illegal too.

I don't see how it could be enforced. Someone takes a pregnancy test which comes back positive then hops in a train, rides it across to Dresden or Berlin and gets the procedure carried out and pays for it themselves. Government had no idea they were pregnant and no idea they had an abortion.

Bad law is bad.

**Future War Cultist**

We're having the same debate here in Northern Ireland. The liberal in me says that abortion should always be on offer, and I was baptised as a catholic. It should be left to the individual to decide if it's right for them. Besides, it's useless to ban it anyway because there's too many ways around it. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather it was never needed but exceptions have to be made.

**AlmightyWalrus**

I've got a similar view of abortion as I've got of alcohol: I wish it'd feth off, but realise it won't, so let's make it as safe as possible.

**Iron_Captain**

General Annoyance wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
In my opinion, and I know I am conservative in this, abortion should only be allowed if it is neccessary to save the life of the mother. I think the proposed ban in Poland is a great idea except for the part where it is also banned if the mother's life is threatened. If the mother dies you will lose 2 lives. If you execute an abortion you will lose only 1, which is bad but still preferable to losing 2 lives.

Sounds fairly reasonable; what about rape victims though?

I don't think it should be allowed in my opinion. While getting raped is horrible, and I while can't even begin to comprehend the horror women must feel if they get impregnated by a rapist, I feel that it would be very wrong to turn the unborn child into an additional victim of this. The child is blameless, and in my opinion the life of this innocent child is worth the additional suffering of pregnancy that the woman will have to endure for 9 months. Afterwards the child can be taken away to a foster or adoptive family and the mother will never need to see it again if she so wishes.
Again, it is a question of whether you want 1 or 2 victims. The woman already is a victim. Let's not turn the child into another one.

**Wyrmalla**

Iron_Captain wrote:
General Annoyance wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
In my opinion, and I know I am conservative in this, abortion should only be allowed if it is neccessary to save the life of the mother. I think the proposed ban in Poland is a great idea except for the part where it is also banned if the mother's life is threatened. If the mother dies you will lose 2 lives. If you execute an abortion you will lose only 1, which is bad but still preferable to losing 2 lives.

Sounds fairly reasonable; what about rape victims though?

I don't think it should be allowed in my opinion. While getting raped is horrible, and I while can't even begin to comprehend the horror women must feel if they get impregnated by a rapist, I feel that it would be very wrong to turn the unborn child into an additional victim of this. The child is blameless, and in my opinion the life of this innocent child is worth the additional suffering of pregnancy that the woman will have to endure for 9 months. Afterwards the child can be taken away to a foster or adoptive family and the mother will never need to see it again if she so wishes.
Again, it is a question of whether you want 1 or 2 victims. The woman already is a victim. Let's not turn the child into another one.

Sorry, but you try carrying someone who raped you's child for nine months...

**kronk**

General Annoyance wrote:

If a couple were careless enough to not use contraception, then they should be denied. A couple that did use contraception that still ended up in pregnancy should be considered.

Whether I used a condom or not, or my GF was on the pill or not, I just have to say "The condom broke", in this scenario.

That's really not a barrier as you've put it.

**Iron_Captain**

Wyrmalla wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
General Annoyance wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
In my opinion, and I know I am conservative in this, abortion should only be allowed if it is neccessary to save the life of the mother. I think the proposed ban in Poland is a great idea except for the part where it is also banned if the mother's life is threatened. If the mother dies you will lose 2 lives. If you execute an abortion you will lose only 1, which is bad but still preferable to losing 2 lives.

Sounds fairly reasonable; what about rape victims though?

I don't think it should be allowed in my opinion. While getting raped is horrible, and I while can't even begin to comprehend the horror women must feel if they get impregnated by a rapist, I feel that it would be very wrong to turn the unborn child into an additional victim of this. The child is blameless, and in my opinion the life of this innocent child is worth the additional suffering of pregnancy that the woman will have to endure for 9 months. Afterwards the child can be taken away to a foster or adoptive family and the mother will never need to see it again if she so wishes.
Again, it is a question of whether you want 1 or 2 victims. The woman already is a victim. Let's not turn the child into another one.

Sorry, but you try carrying someone who raped you's child for nine months...

It is a question of how much you value a human life. We do not consider it acceptable to kill a rapist, so why would you think it is okay to kill a rapist's child? Do you really value a human life so little?
In my opinion, someone's life is worth suffering a few months of mental agony no matter what.

**sirlynchmob**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Wyrmalla wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
General Annoyance wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
In my opinion, and I know I am conservative in this, abortion should only be allowed if it is neccessary to save the life of the mother. I think the proposed ban in Poland is a great idea except for the part where it is also banned if the mother's life is threatened. If the mother dies you will lose 2 lives. If you execute an abortion you will lose only 1, which is bad but still preferable to losing 2 lives.

Sounds fairly reasonable; what about rape victims though?

I don't think it should be allowed in my opinion. While getting raped is horrible, and I while can't even begin to comprehend the horror women must feel if they get impregnated by a rapist, I feel that it would be very wrong to turn the unborn child into an additional victim of this. The child is blameless, and in my opinion the life of this innocent child is worth the additional suffering of pregnancy that the woman will have to endure for 9 months. Afterwards the child can be taken away to a foster or adoptive family and the mother will never need to see it again if she so wishes.
Again, it is a question of whether you want 1 or 2 victims. The woman already is a victim. Let's not turn the child into another one.

Sorry, but you try carrying someone who raped you's child for nine months...

It is a question of how much you value a human life. We do not consider it acceptable to kill a rapist, so why would you think it is okay to kill a rapist's child? Do you really value a human life so little?
In my opinion, someone's life is worth suffering a few months of mental agony no matter what.

it's not a few months though, it's a lifetime of punishment on the women. here in the states rapists can get visitation rights and maybe even custody of the children. some will even offer to drop their parental rights if the woman doesn't press charges so the rapist gets to walk free.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
and it's not a human life, it's just a bundle of cells that might not come to term anyways

**whembly**

sirlynchmob wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
Wyrmalla wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
General Annoyance wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
In my opinion, and I know I am conservative in this, abortion should only be allowed if it is neccessary to save the life of the mother. I think the proposed ban in Poland is a great idea except for the part where it is also banned if the mother's life is threatened. If the mother dies you will lose 2 lives. If you execute an abortion you will lose only 1, which is bad but still preferable to losing 2 lives.

Sounds fairly reasonable; what about rape victims though?

I don't think it should be allowed in my opinion. While getting raped is horrible, and I while can't even begin to comprehend the horror women must feel if they get impregnated by a rapist, I feel that it would be very wrong to turn the unborn child into an additional victim of this. The child is blameless, and in my opinion the life of this innocent child is worth the additional suffering of pregnancy that the woman will have to endure for 9 months. Afterwards the child can be taken away to a foster or adoptive family and the mother will never need to see it again if she so wishes.
Again, it is a question of whether you want 1 or 2 victims. The woman already is a victim. Let's not turn the child into another one.

Sorry, but you try carrying someone who raped you's child for nine months...

It is a question of how much you value a human life. We do not consider it acceptable to kill a rapist, so why would you think it is okay to kill a rapist's child? Do you really value a human life so little?
In my opinion, someone's life is worth suffering a few months of mental agony no matter what.

it's not a few months though, it's a lifetime of punishment on the women. here in the states rapists can get visitation rights and maybe even custody of the children. some will even offer to drop their parental rights if the woman doesn't press charges so the rapist gets to walk free.

Really? Which state?

In Missouri, a convicted rapist gets jack gak and prison.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
and it's not a human life, it's just a bundle of cells that might not come to term anyways

Ummmm... you might wanna reword that a bit... at conception, it's by definition a human life.

**sirlynchmob**

whembly wrote:

Really? Which state?

In Missouri, a convicted rapist gets jack gak and prison.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
and it's not a human life, it's just a bundle of cells that might not come to term anyways

Ummmm... you might wanna reword that a bit... at conception, it's by definition a human life.

this article says 31 states have it:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/01/us/rapist-child-custody/

and no the wording is fine, a zygote is not a human life

**Peregrine**

Iron_Captain wrote:
so why would you think it is okay to kill a rapist's child?

Because it is not a child. It is a blob of cells with less capacity for thought/feeling pain/etc than the cockroach that you would squish without hesitation. Or the blob of cancer cells that you would have removed from yourself without hesitation, despite the fact that they are clearly "human life".

**Jacksmiles**

Seems a little fethed up to me to say "Hey you had this traumatizing rape experience and the guy who violated you and physically assaulted you got you pregnant? Guess you're just gonna have to live with the constant, daily, minute-to-minute reminder of that horrible emotional and mental trauma! Sorry, but get over it! Congratulations on your baby!"

**whembly**

sirlynchmob wrote:
whembly wrote:

Really? Which state?

In Missouri, a convicted rapist gets jack gak and prison.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
and it's not a human life, it's just a bundle of cells that might not come to term anyways

Ummmm... you might wanna reword that a bit... at conception, it's by definition a human life.

this article says 31 states have it:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/01/us/rapist-child-custody/

Huh... didn't know that. Quite disgusting if you ask me....

Imma going to bow out now, as I know how this thread will end.