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I took a break from games for 3 years and came back to AoS or 7th 40k as my options. I've mostly played 40k, previously deterred by the massive unit blocks, deathstar units and herohammer of WHFB. 40k to me now looks extremely overly complex with way too many special rules for models, weapons, unit type etc and Kill Team doesnt really streamline it or make it into a good starter to get back into, it's an expansion for those who already have the models, codex, & grasp of the rules. The multkiple sources needed to gather rules for the units I'd want to use with ambiguous rules of what applies to the unit or model really killed my desire to get back into it. (Picked AoS FYI to get back into the game)

IMO it should have been 1 book in the box for all the rules and unit profiles. Pickup whatever models you want from the book and they can be used without getting a codex for their rules. Unit profiles would already be much smaller than the codex list since it'll cut out a ton of units that don't meet the KT requirements anyways of no fliers, no 2+ save, no 33+ armor, no 3+ wounds. Streamline the hit and wound like AoS with a SM as the baseline and give vehicles wounds with the decreasing power level as it takes damage like in AoS.

Examples:
Marine: Wound 1 / Move 4 / Save 3+ / Bravery 9
Bolter: Range 24" / Attack 1 / Hit 3+ / Wound 4+ / Rend -1 / Damage 1
Meltagun: Range 12" / Attack 1 / Hit 3+ / Wound 2+ / Rend -3 / Damage D6
Unit has 5 or more. 1 in 5 can pick a special/heavy weapon.

Guardsman: Wound 1 / Move 4 / Save 5+ / Bravery 7
Lasgun: Range 24" / Attack 1 / Hit 4+ / Wound 5+ / Rend - / Damage 1
Unit has 10 or more. 1 in 10 can pick a special/heavy weapon.

Dire Avenger: Wound 1 / Move 6 / Save 4+ / Bravery 8
Shuriken Catapult: Range 12" / Attack 2 / Hit 3+ / Wound 4+ / Rend -1 / Damage 1
Unit has 5 or more.

Everything would have a chance at taking something out so there isn't some "You didn't take this item so you cant kill X and you lose" scenario.
Combat would work like AoS where you alternate picking piling in and attack.
Wouldn't neuter the complexity of actual 40k games that many like
Much easier entry into the game
Wouldn't set a points limit so people can do more than the "official 200 points"
Can focus fire down the big units or vehicles with gradual effect rather than hope for that miracle shot. AKA more balance in the small scale
Squads would be purchased in man increments like AoS
Add in some specialist & wargear traits for the leaders/sarge for variety

Thoughts?

Really thinking of trying to come up with some simplified rules and giving AoS-style KT a try!

You got an interesting idea there. No one wants 40k to be a clone of AoS, but a simplified jump in point makes sense. Wasn't Assault in Black Reach or Dark Vengeance kinda like that? I remember hearing they were trying to put one of the board games out in all the big box stores, but have no clue how that went.

I've heard a lot about the potential 'Sigmarification' of 40k and I'm honestly not 100% sure what that means. Is it just smaller armies, simplified rules, and faster games? I know people have been happy with it, but I've never played it or WFB, so I don't know how exactly it changed. Would what you're proposing affect 40k proper, or just the kill team boardgame? Are you wanting 40k to do a full end times and reboot?? I'm no expert, but from what I've seen, I like most of it. The escalation can get a bit ridiculous and you do need an absurd number of books to be effective.

I wouldnt want a killing off of 40k to move into the next chapter or oversimplification straight to AoS where wargear and such is baked into the unit since it matters quite a bit more w all the shooting and diff units in 40k. Right now it is a massive mess though with formation BS and extreme unbalance on top of needing a massive amount of expensive models and multiple books.

AoS-40k KT just more doable rule wise since it cuts out stuff like fliers, titans and superheavies for a smaller condensed game with stronger focus on actual squads. I really do like the removal of the hit and wound tables in AoS so you dont need to look up their stat, then look up the table for what to roll, then look up the target's stats then to another table on what to roll. Over time it's not a big deal when you have the tables memorized, but the downside is you still need to memorize the statline of the target you're hitting and stats of each weapon

Makes for quicker games like combat patrol or 40k in 40 min way back for the vets, and for the newer players you get a better taste of an army being able to use their core units without needing to spend on multiple books. If they want to expand from there they'd get into the larger units and models instead of the offering now which is a repackage plus a sheet saying here's a few new restrictions to play at 200 pts.

Archonite wrote:
...Wouldn't neuter the complexity of actual 40k games that many like...

This is the sticking point. You can simplify 40k, and trying to do Kill-Team by stapling another book on top of an overly-complicated system wasn't the best decision, but you can't make a workable game by copy-pasting Age of Sigmar's implementation. The goals of Age of Sigmar were cool, but the changes were superficial and they didn't address any of the things that made Warhammer cluttered or difficult to play.

Any attempt at a simplified Kill-Team system is going to have to reexamine more of the basic assumptions of the game, not just make superficial changes to where the numbers are stored. If you go to Proposed Rules you'll find Lanrak working on a simplified version of 40k as a whole, if you look at the blog linked to in my signature you'll find notes on my attempt to construct a game based on Mordheim. We differ on a lot of things but the first and biggest change both of us set out to make was stripping out or standardizing rules that apply extra modes of resolution. The question of what a save roll is (armour, invulnerable, cover, FNP, Reanimation Protocols...) and how many dice you should really need to roll to make an attack adds a lot more complexity to 40k than the Strength/Toughness table does.

(Footnote: The bit people tout about Age of Sigmar that makes no sense to me is the claim that there are fewer numbers to memorize; in 40k I need nine numbers and four numbers per weapon on each model, under your example I need four numbers and six per weapon on each model, and every close combat weapon needs a complete profile. For a Space Marine with a bolter, bolt pistol, and combat knife I need seventeen numbers, under your proposal I'd need twenty-two)

You'd be looking for the recently released Battle of Vedros set then.
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Vedros

You'd be looking for the recently released Battle of Vedros set then.
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Vedros

That is exactly what I was trying think of! Thank you.

Archonite wrote:
Everything would have a chance at taking something out so there isn't some "You didn't take this item so you cant kill X and you lose" scenario.

Brr sorry but lasgun should not be able to hurt landraider nevermind bigger stuff like baneblades, warhound titans or god forbid emperor titan.

Remove bloat fine, make it totally illogical no.

I disagree.
Rules for focused fire on a weak point of any supermonstermachine should have a chance of having an effect.
Even if it means rolling 7's or causing multiple wounds within a single volley.

tneva82 wrote:

Archonite wrote:
Everything would have a chance at taking something out so there isn't some "You didn't take this item so you cant kill X and you lose" scenario.

Brr sorry but lasgun should not be able to hurt landraider nevermind bigger stuff like baneblades, warhound titans or god forbid emperor titan.

Remove bloat fine, make it totally illogical no.

By the fluff Lasguns shouldn't even be able to hurt Terminator armor, I mean a Titan stepped on one and it survived the impact yet nobody is calling for 2+ to be more durable.

I think a grossly simplified version of Kill Team might be fine as a starter set, but if that was all GW did, it would be a huge missed opportunity.

Kill Team should be a stand-alone ruleset purpose built for small unit skirmishes. It should be more detailed than 40k, but in the right places (and slimmed down everywhere else). A good sci fi skirmish game should include things like proper overwatch, suppressive fire, and tracking of wounds and experience. 40k has tons of bloat to remove, but AoS is barely adequate as a game and would be a very disappointing skirmish game.

I always thought they should have did what they did with 4th edition introductory rules in the Battle for Macragge.

Use the introductory rules like they did, add a bit more each time like they did and then have to Kill Team rules where the rules are "basic" for small point games.

Then go to advanced rules like the main 40K rules to have a lot more options and bigger point games. Then have even more advanced options to play Apocalypse games. They seem to have 2 out of 3, but should really have made Kill Teams the "introductory" way of playing 40K games.

Just like how Age of Sigmar should have been the "introductory" way of playing Fantasy and then have Fantasy to become bigger point games with more options.

There are elements from AoS that I would love to see brought over to 40k, such as all rules for a unit being on its Dataslate or Characters being unable to join other unit but having increased survivability, or formations coming with a points cost. I do not want 40k to become AoS In Space. Vehicle rules need to be changed, but they still need to be different from non-vehicle units. I still want the two games to feel different when I play them.

tneva82 wrote:

Archonite wrote:
Everything would have a chance at taking something out so there isn't some "You didn't take this item so you cant kill X and you lose" scenario.

Brr sorry but lasgun should not be able to hurt landraider nevermind bigger stuff like baneblades, warhound titans or god forbid emperor titan.

Remove bloat fine, make it totally illogical no.

Did you just pick and choose what you wanted to read? How would you be taking landraider levels of armor into killteam restrictied games? Nevermind your titans

Davor wrote:
I always thought they should have did what they did with 4th edition introductory rules in the Battle for Macragge.

Use the introductory rules like they did, add a bit more each time like they did and then have to Kill Team rules where the rules are "basic" for small point games.

Then go to advanced rules like the main 40K rules to have a lot more options and bigger point games. Then have even more advanced options to play Apocalypse games. They seem to have 2 out of 3, but should really have made Kill Teams the "introductory" way of playing 40K games.

Just like how Age of Sigmar should have been the "introductory" way of playing Fantasy and then have Fantasy to become bigger point games with more options.

You have this backwards though. Nothing about a smaller model count means the game has to be "basic" versus "advanced". A proper low model count skirmish game can and should have more granular rules than a mass battle game because it has a smaller model count. Things like throwing grenades - a stupid, fiddly rule in 40k that is perfectly at home in a stand-alone Kill Team.

What you should really be asking for is a more streamlined and sensible 40k with rules designed for mass battles, and a completely separate stand alone skirmish game for low model counts.

A starter box that eases people into the 40k rules is a completely separate topic. Wanting a starter set is no reason to fail at making a real skirmish game that can stand alongside the likes of Infinity.

Weapons that use the same roll to wound a Grot and to wound a Plague Marine are horrible and immersion killing.

If GW goes that way, for me is over.

Better lists, choices, rules adjustment? Yes thanks.

AoS horrible rules? No thanks.

They already have battle of nowhere to be found, calth, spacehulk, flyers in a box and knights in a box and scouts in a box for that. Simplified kill team in a box would not really add that much if you ask me.
What they really need is a way to lure in all the RPG players. A more complex rule set that has some DND like complex but simple to pick up for RPG players combat mechanics might actually lure them in.

Weapons that use the same roll to wound a Grot and to wound a Plague Marine are horrible and immersion killing.

If GW goes that way, for me is over.

Better lists, choices, rules adjustment? Yes thanks.

Why? You already use the same roll to hit a grot and a stormsurge.

What matters is that the difference in durability is modelled into the rules somewhere - not necessarily in roll to wound, maybe in armour save, number of wounds, or in unit-specific rules (save rerolls, forced rerolls to wound, feel no pain or equivalent).

locarno24 wrote:

Weapons that use the same roll to wound a Grot and to wound a Plague Marine are horrible and immersion killing.

If GW goes that way, for me is over.

Better lists, choices, rules adjustment? Yes thanks.

Why? You already use the same roll to hit a grot and a stormsurge.

What matters is that the difference in durability is modelled into the rules somewhere - not necessarily in roll to wound, maybe in armour save, number of wounds, or in unit-specific rules (save rerolls, forced rerolls to wound, feel no pain or equivalent).

In WHFB, bigger models gave +1 to hit. I prefer to go closer to that kind of design, not further away, frankly.
The less rerolls we have, the better. Is time consuming. Rerolls should be rare but is the only thing our creative designer team can come up with these days.
Of the whole WS, BS, S/T system, the only thing I would change is a 2+ hit when the attacker's WS is more than twice the defender's.

The rest works just fine. The clunkiness in the system is elsewhere.

And wounds are durability. Toughness is hardness. You can have hard individuals that are not very durable, or the other way around.

Think about Wraithguard and Ogryns. They are both tough, but in a different way. The mechanics simulate that very well.

Have the stats being able to simulate that adds depth and immersion to me. The problem of the game is the overall incoherent design, not the stats. WS, AB and S/T work on the simplest formulas and I picked up them in 10 minutes as a 12 y.o.

Kaiyanwang wrote:Weapons that use the same roll to wound a Grot and to wound a Plague Marine are horrible and immersion killing.

If GW goes that way, for me is over.

Better lists, choices, rules adjustment? Yes thanks.

AoS horrible rules? No thanks.

If you think Age of Sigmar rules are horrible, I really hate to see what you think of 40K.

locarno24 wrote:
...What matters is that the difference in durability is modelled into the rules somewhere - not necessarily in roll to wound, maybe in armour save, number of wounds, or in unit-specific rules (save rerolls, forced rerolls to wound, feel no pain or equivalent).

Is the to-wound table really so complex that you'd rather make the ruleset more complicated by adding more unit-specific rules in more places?

Davor wrote:

Kaiyanwang wrote:Weapons that use the same roll to wound a Grot and to wound a Plague Marine are horrible and immersion killing.

If GW goes that way, for me is over.

Better lists, choices, rules adjustment? Yes thanks.

AoS horrible rules? No thanks.

If you think Age of Sigmar rules are horrible, I really hate to see what you think of 40K.

Horrible in different ways.

AoS is just unsalvageable. Half of the game is silly, unfinished concepts. The other half is not just there, and GW sold this as a feature. People believed it, too. Wow.

40k needs merciless cleanup and streamlining. The basics can be good, but you need to remove silly ovepowered stuff (who thought that the riptide needed FnP in addition to the rest?) formations should be re-disegned with a different framework in mind (more like warmachine perhaps) and randumb must be toned down for game quality and to save time. Or to do not make players life impossible, see the new Orks. In addition, redundancy: with precision shots in the picture, it would be enough to go back to the old ways to assign wounds. Having the new system AND precision shots is dumb beyond comprehension.

Radically different situations.

I think in a broad concept sort of way, I agree. AoS is more skirmishy and so is Kill Team but AoS actually has more rules to support that. Kill team simply doesn't go far enough with its rule set.