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A lot of us probably think police body cameras are a good idea for a variety of reasons, from exonerating officers against unwarranted complaints to catching those officers abusing their power (and their friends who do nothing to prevent it)

So here's a large scale study from a variety of jurisdictions showing just how useful they can be it was reported on the BBC today http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37502136 (but for the full study look here http://cjb.sagepub.com/content/early/2016/09/21/0093854816668218.full)

bottom lines were complaints against officers fell 93% due to both improvements in behaviour of the officers and the public they were interacting with, and members of the public not being as likely to make phony complaints when the camera would catch them out

they can also help community relations, the Cambridge UK force is using 'peoples panels' to review random samplings of stop and search body cam footage both to show why and how the police are doing them, and that they're not picking on any part of the community too often (of course this does depend on a degree of trust that the 'random sample' is random and not preselected so isn't going to be a solution for some of the US cases where trust has failed totally





and now from my personal point of view :since the complaints depts. are going to have far more time they can investigate the complaints they get in more detail weeding out so called 'bad apple' police, build cases against members of the public making false accusations, and, most importantly, drilling down into if there are any changes in police operations and training that might be beneficial....

If certain police behaviour is generating a lot of complaints perhaps slight tweeks will reduce it?
Are there bits of the training that aren't being acted on in real life, maybe the training needs modification ?
Do some officers get a better/less aggressive response from the guilty(and innocent), what are they doing differently, build it into the general training etc

At least in the US, I believe we are well past the point of 'slight tweaks' being adequate in repairing the damage caused by decades of bad behavior on both sides that have turned policing into basically a war mindset. This is not a matter of 'bits of training' that is at issue, it is that the culture on both sides of the blue line have had essentially generations of animosity and mistrust bred into them. You aren't going to fix that overnight, and any thought that a simple, small change is somehow going to undo that is folly.

Body cameras are an excellent start, though. I wholly agree that body cameras need to be standard issue, and that they be available for public review.

Aye, as public employees whos primary job is to interact with the public, body cameras are both appropriate and necessary in this day and age. That said, they wont be a cure all panacea, especially if video can be withheld or the cameras turned off or otherwise "malfunction" the way they often appear to, but theyre a good start.

 curran12 wrote:
At least in the US, I believe we are well past the point of 'slight tweaks' being adequate in repairing the damage caused by decades of bad behavior on both sides that have turned policing into basically a war mindset. This is not a matter of 'bits of training' that is at issue, it is that the culture on both sides of the blue line have had essentially generations of animosity and mistrust bred into them. You aren't going to fix that overnight, and any thought that a simple, small change is somehow going to undo that is folly.

Body cameras are an excellent start, though. I wholly agree that body cameras need to be standard issue, and that they be available for public review.

Im all for body camera's. I also think the "war" mentality has been a problem. I was talking with a former police officer who also plays at our local FLGS. We took a break and went to lunch together and we started talking about whichever shooting had happened at the time, at this point I can't remember which one. Mind you I have 3 tours in foreign countries, so when I say what I'm about to say next, it will surprise you. He said based on what he has had to endure, and see, and deal with, that there was a point that his whole mind set changed. From watching fathers get off after burning kids, abusing them physically, to child predators and the aftermath endured. He understood how a police officer gets jaded against a populace when the majority of the people you deal with on a day to day basis are truly scum. Some of the stories he told were straight out of episodes of SVU only they were not fiction. He spoke about anyone he questions, or has to pull over as if they were the enemy. Now after talking with him I understand. I understand because some of the language he used was language and mindset I actually used and had when fighting a real enemy. What was surprising was how unapologetic he was. He also mentioned that law enforcement is expected to be experts on everything, because they get called on to handle everything. Suicide jumper-call the police. Burglar-call the police. I mean those 2 things are not related, and only one I think falls under law enforcement. He was also very against body cams. He was against them the same reason I was against body cams and press on patrols with us. Only difference was my mission was to destroy stuff and people, that is not a LEOs job.

Yesterday I was talking with a dude in my unit who trained for gate guard operations(guys who check IDs at the gate of military installations). He had to do a modified military police training program, certify with a 9mm pistol, learn regulations etc. The thing that struck him and myself as odd was the deliberate de-escalation policy they have. Noted this is military training, and not civilian police training, but it seems to be the same on the civilian side. Its one of the problems I can see as a cause for the distrust. He was told if he pulled his weapon, he needed to use it. Not hey control the situation, but if you up yourself to that level of force, its because you are going to use that weapon. (The reasoning behind this is not to murder people, but to make someone think about it before they pull it.)

So Body cams. They create a unique challenge, and no one is ever going to be happy with the compromises necessary to fully institute them. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be any, but managing expectations is important, and something most people have a hard time with.

1. Battery life. You can not keep it on for an entire shift. We just don't have batteries for cams that will go that long.
2. Memory, see reason above. It is unlikely at this point in our technological development we are going to be able to mesh 1 and 2 together into an 8+ hour shift.
a. The work around is to turn it on when needed. This creates a situation where you have to consciously make the effort to turn it on, and in 90% of cases this may not be an issue, but in the split second oh gak situations, it is not feasible. At that point your are focused on the task at hand or you should be.
3. Second guessing training. This is why I was against press in Afghanistan and Iraq. When you second guess what you know you have been trained to do in a situation it can lead to your or someone else's death or serious injury. we have to manage expectations on this. I know the thoughts going through some of your heads, but believe me there are SJWs out there that care not for the truth, or can't comprehend certain things, no matter what they see or hear. it leads to good people getting screwed all the time.
4. Camera angles. Not even body and dash cams can always get a complete picture. Look at the Scott shooting. They released all footage, and there were angles and areas we could not see. The story is as complete as it can be, with the footage that was taken. But it was not complete.

So I am for them, but with managed expectations. They are a good tool, but no single tool has the ability to fix every issue. Changing the way both sides look at each other is the first step. Understanding on both sides. If all you deal with is scum all day, then everyone starts to look like scum. When you are treated like scum for so long, then that is how you feel no matter what someone is saying to you.

My jurisdiction uses them and in general they're great. Trouble is you can't see what they're recording, so you may not always get the best view angle. And they're expensive to maintain. Not so much the cameras themselves, but the servers that contain all the videos.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Aye, as public employees whos primary job is to interact with the public, body cameras are both appropriate and necessary in this day and age. That said, they wont be a cure all panacea, especially if video can be withheld or the cameras turned off or otherwise "malfunction" the way they often appear to, but theyre a good start.

You know... the technologies exists to make bady cameras more stable and effective.

It's just a matter of cost...

For instance, most police officers work out of their issued police cars, so turn that into a moblie hotspot for the camera device to connect while on foot. Then, any work with the municiple folks to install hotspots for the camera on government buildings for those officers working too far from their car.

That way, it can be streamed realtime back at HQ to ensure compliance that the device is on and operational.

 redleger wrote:


1. Battery life. You can not keep it on for an entire shift. We just don't have batteries for cams that will go that long.

Just ordered some high battery life cameras that should last an entire 12 hour shift using our DUI equipment fund money. We'll see if they work as advertised.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Aye, as public employees whos primary job is to interact with the public, body cameras are both appropriate and necessary in this day and age. That said, they wont be a cure all panacea, especially if video can be withheld or the cameras turned off or otherwise "malfunction" the way they often appear to, but theyre a good start.

I know a lot of people have issues with body cam footage not being immediately releases, but here is a scenario behind the reason for such a law to be in place. there should be a hold, not hiding, but delay in release for one very strong reason.

I am from Corpus Christi, Texas. Biggest thing at the time to come out of there was Selena. When she was murdered, it was all over the news. Hell the nun in class stopped to inform us of this. It was that big a deal there. Footage of the crime scenes, of the suspect everything was on the news 24/7. In the mind of the whole damn city the suspect was guilty. (She really was, but the whole purpose of the legal system is innocent until proven guilty) The trial had to be moved far away just so she could get a fair trial.

Now with distrust so high, lets say there is a bad shoot. That footage airs 24/7. charges are brought, and its time to select a Jury. Is anyone on that jury going to be able to say they can actually be objective?

As far as Camera malfunction, I ride a dirt bike and use 2 types of cameras. At any point anyone of them has stopped working due to the jarring and other possible issues like being smacked with tree branches etc. A police officer moving for cover, running, etc can easily accidently hit that button which sits open on top of the case. On my side mount camera, the switch was a slide, made it easy to use with gloves. Ate gak one time in a sandy portion, the impact shut it off, so I didn't even have footage of the cool rolling and recovery I did. So it is not beyond the realm of possibility.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Monkey Tamer wrote:

 redleger wrote:


1. Battery life. You can not keep it on for an entire shift. We just don't have batteries for cams that will go that long.

Just ordered some high battery life cameras that should last an entire 12 hour shift using our DUI equipment fund money. We'll see if they work as advertised.

for a go-pro type camera. If so I need that info. I ran out of battery/memory on my last race.

 whembly wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Aye, as public employees whos primary job is to interact with the public, body cameras are both appropriate and necessary in this day and age. That said, they wont be a cure all panacea, especially if video can be withheld or the cameras turned off or otherwise "malfunction" the way they often appear to, but theyre a good start.

You know... the technologies exists to make bady cameras more stable and effective.

It's just a matter of cost...

For instance, most police officers work out of their issued police cars, so turn that into a moblie hotspot for the camera device to connect while on foot. Then, any work with the municiple folks to install hotspots for the camera on government buildings for those officers working too far from their car.

That way, it can be streamed realtime back at HQ to ensure compliance that the device is on and operational.

Now you are incurring spectrum management issues as well as the costs associated with live streaming and monitoring dozens to hundreds of feeds continuously. Not many municipalities are resourced to handle that, and the spectrum issue goes Federal really quickly.

And then you have rural counties to consider... The infrastructure to allow love streaming to HQ would bust their budgets big time.

 redleger wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Aye, as public employees whos primary job is to interact with the public, body cameras are both appropriate and necessary in this day and age. That said, they wont be a cure all panacea, especially if video can be withheld or the cameras turned off or otherwise "malfunction" the way they often appear to, but theyre a good start.

I know a lot of people have issues with body cam footage not being immediately releases, but here is a scenario behind the reason for such a law to be in place. there should be a hold, not hiding, but delay in release for one very strong reason.

I am from Corpus Christi, Texas. Biggest thing at the time to come out of there was Selena. When she was murdered, it was all over the news. Hell the nun in class stopped to inform us of this. It was that big a deal there. Footage of the crime scenes, of the suspect everything was on the news 24/7. In the mind of the whole damn city the suspect was guilty. (She really was, but the whole purpose of the legal system is innocent until proven guilty) The trial had to be moved far away just so she could get a fair trial.

Now with distrust so high, lets say there is a bad shoot. That footage airs 24/7. charges are brought, and its time to select a Jury. Is anyone on that jury going to be able to say they can actually be objective?

I get that footage cant be released immediately in all cases and that jury concerns arise an all that. However there are instances where departments (like chicago) will simply refuse to release the video until a judge orders them to and it is only after the release that the wheels of justice start to turn. Or states like NC where publicly recorded video of public employees in public places is now protected from public view until someone gets a judge to force an agency to release it, which acts as a great shield against accountability for police and dramatically undercuts the purpose they serve.

As far as Camera malfunction, I ride a dirt bike and use 2 types of cameras. At any point anyone of them has stopped working due to the jarring and other possible issues like being smacked with tree branches etc. A police officer moving for cover, running, etc can easily accidently hit that button which sits open on top of the case. On my side mount camera, the switch was a slide, made it easy to use with gloves. Ate gak one time in a sandy portion, the impact shut it off, so I didn't even have footage of the cool rolling and recovery I did. So it is not beyond the realm of possibility.

Sure, but the problem is that it seems to be an almost go-to response in some instances, with apparently far higher failure rates than could be reasonably expected, particularly when there's no indication of officers being involved in rough physical activity beyind drawing and firing (which should have 0 effect on the camera).

 Vaktathi wrote:

 redleger wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Aye, as public employees whos primary job is to interact with the public, body cameras are both appropriate and necessary in this day and age. That said, they wont be a cure all panacea, especially if video can be withheld or the cameras turned off or otherwise "malfunction" the way they often appear to, but theyre a good start.

I know a lot of people have issues with body cam footage not being immediately releases, but here is a scenario behind the reason for such a law to be in place. there should be a hold, not hiding, but delay in release for one very strong reason.

I am from Corpus Christi, Texas. Biggest thing at the time to come out of there was Selena. When she was murdered, it was all over the news. Hell the nun in class stopped to inform us of this. It was that big a deal there. Footage of the crime scenes, of the suspect everything was on the news 24/7. In the mind of the whole damn city the suspect was guilty. (She really was, but the whole purpose of the legal system is innocent until proven guilty) The trial had to be moved far away just so she could get a fair trial.

Now with distrust so high, lets say there is a bad shoot. That footage airs 24/7. charges are brought, and its time to select a Jury. Is anyone on that jury going to be able to say they can actually be objective?

I get that footage cant be released immediately in all cases and that jury concerns arise an all that. However there are instances where departments (like chicago) will simply refuse to release the video until a judge orders them to and it is only after the release that the wheels of justice start to turn. Or states like NC where publicly recorded video of public employees in public places is now protected from public view until someone gets a judge to force an agency to release it, which acts as a great shield against accountability for police and dramatically undercuts the purpose they serve.

As far as Camera malfunction, I ride a dirt bike and use 2 types of cameras. At any point anyone of them has stopped working due to the jarring and other possible issues like being smacked with tree branches etc. A police officer moving for cover, running, etc can easily accidently hit that button which sits open on top of the case. On my side mount camera, the switch was a slide, made it easy to use with gloves. Ate gak one time in a sandy portion, the impact shut it off, so I didn't even have footage of the cool rolling and recovery I did. So it is not beyond the realm of possibility.

Sure, but the problem is that it seems to be an almost go-to response in some instances, with apparently far higher failure rates than could be reasonably expected, particularly when there's no indication of officers being involved in rough physical activity beyind drawing and firing (which should have 0 effect on the camera).

Well, I would say common sense should reign, but we all know that lacks greatly when these situations come into play. Procedural issues, whatever they happen to be as established when body cams are implemented should be dealt with. How do you prove failure to follow procedure is something to think about, but if they failure or malfunction rate is abnormally high, then you start to suspect a systemic problem.

as far as a delay to the prosecution(wheels of justice) then that's when lawyers get involved, get that footage released. Nothing happens fast in our judicial system unfortunately, that whole speedy trial thing is almost impossible at this point due to number of cases. However I would take a delay to nothing happening at all.

 CptJake wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Aye, as public employees whos primary job is to interact with the public, body cameras are both appropriate and necessary in this day and age. That said, they wont be a cure all panacea, especially if video can be withheld or the cameras turned off or otherwise "malfunction" the way they often appear to, but theyre a good start.

You know... the technologies exists to make bady cameras more stable and effective.

It's just a matter of cost...

For instance, most police officers work out of their issued police cars, so turn that into a moblie hotspot for the camera device to connect while on foot. Then, any work with the municiple folks to install hotspots for the camera on government buildings for those officers working too far from their car.

That way, it can be streamed realtime back at HQ to ensure compliance that the device is on and operational.

Now you are incurring spectrum management issues as well as the costs associated with live streaming and monitoring dozens to hundreds of feeds continuously. Not many municipalities are resourced to handle that, and the spectrum issue goes Federal really quickly.

And then you have rural counties to consider... The infrastructure to allow love streaming to HQ would bust their budgets big time.

Yeah... I realize it's a budget buster right now, but the technologies are there and there numerous ways to drive down the cost.

 whembly wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Aye, as public employees whos primary job is to interact with the public, body cameras are both appropriate and necessary in this day and age. That said, they wont be a cure all panacea, especially if video can be withheld or the cameras turned off or otherwise "malfunction" the way they often appear to, but theyre a good start.

You know... the technologies exists to make bady cameras more stable and effective.

It's just a matter of cost...

For instance, most police officers work out of their issued police cars, so turn that into a moblie hotspot for the camera device to connect while on foot. Then, any work with the municiple folks to install hotspots for the camera on government buildings for those officers working too far from their car.

That way, it can be streamed realtime back at HQ to ensure compliance that the device is on and operational.

Now you are incurring spectrum management issues as well as the costs associated with live streaming and monitoring dozens to hundreds of feeds continuously. Not many municipalities are resourced to handle that, and the spectrum issue goes Federal really quickly.

And then you have rural counties to consider... The infrastructure to allow love streaming to HQ would bust their budgets big time.

Yeah... I realize it's a budget buster right now, but the technologies are there and there numerous ways to drive down the cost.

The tech may be there, for limited numbers of sensors. Even DoD with no real restrictions on spectrum use overseas in a war zone can't manage near that number of live streams. And in many cases civilian spectrum use over there could be chucked out of consideration. The tech is not there, not even close, to enable live streaming for every cop in a big city. Even efficiently used spectrum is a finite resource. In CONUS there are massive chunks of available spectrum blocked off for commercial and private use. There is a lot more to it than tech.

 redleger wrote:

2. Memory, see reason above. It is unlikely at this point in our technological development we are going to be able to mesh 1 and 2 together into an 8+ hour shift.
a. The work around is to turn it on when needed. This creates a situation where you have to consciously make the effort to turn it on, and in 90% of cases this may not be an issue, but in the split second oh gak situations, it is not feasible. At that point your are focused on the task at hand or you should be.

With as large of SD cards we have available, I don't think this will, or should be as much an issue as you'd think, especially considering that a movie such as Rambo, when I had downloaded films, took up around 800MB of disk space. That's 2 hours of footage and less than a Gig of space used. From some of the recent events, we have stories of a responding officer "forgetting" to turn his camera on and thus no recording of an incident... I would suggest some means, as we did in Iraq of checking in... Don't most patrol units call in when they go on break, lunch, etc? It could be something as simple as dispatch adding a line to their check-in procedures to remind units to turn on their cameras again.

In previous threads on this issue, some users have brought up the privacy issues of lunch breaks, bathroom breaks, etc. where an officer should rightly be considered "off-duty" but I don't think that being forgetful should be a usable excuse should a camera be off during an incident response.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CptJake wrote:

The tech may be there, for limited numbers of sensors. Even DoD with no real restrictions on spectrum use overseas in a war zone can't manage near that number of live streams. And in many cases civilian spectrum use over there could be chucked out of consideration. The tech is not there, not even close, to enable live streaming for every cop in a big city. Even efficiently used spectrum is a finite resource. In CONUS there are massive chunks of available spectrum blocked off for commercial and private use. There is a lot more to it than tech.

Thinking about this for a second, I agree that there's no way to live-stream in such a way you could conceivably have a "monitor" watching a large number of screens (or even a single screen with the various feeds acting like channels), however there is one way I can think of where it may be feasible. Wi-Fi. If some means were available for compression of data, the packets could be sent similar to how our phones locations, or how we stream video over the air. IP management could make the idea more feasible. But... this is literally just a random thought off the top of my head, and could be completely pants on head crazy as far as reality is concerned.

Location data (to include the source IP) is small, for example Blue Fore Tracker SA is around 230 bytes. Live, continuous video streaming (even compressed or sent as 'still' chips) is measured in kilobytes per second for really poor quality video. VOIP calls are generally 16KB per second on most modern systems once you take into account call set up and take down.

It works via WiFi in small areas with somewhat limited users. If everybody on your block* came to your house and logged onto your WiFi and all tried to watch NetFlix or YouTube, you would quickly find it just won't work. Your hot spot only has so much bandwidth and streaming apps eat it up quickly.

*Assuming, unlike me, you actually live of a 'block' typical of most suburban areas...

 whembly wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Aye, as public employees whos primary job is to interact with the public, body cameras are both appropriate and necessary in this day and age. That said, they wont be a cure all panacea, especially if video can be withheld or the cameras turned off or otherwise "malfunction" the way they often appear to, but theyre a good start.

You know... the technologies exists to make bady cameras more stable and effective.

It's just a matter of cost...

For instance, most police officers work out of their issued police cars, so turn that into a moblie hotspot for the camera device to connect while on foot. Then, any work with the municiple folks to install hotspots for the camera on government buildings for those officers working too far from their car.

That way, it can be streamed realtime back at HQ to ensure compliance that the device is on and operational.

Now you are incurring spectrum management issues as well as the costs associated with live streaming and monitoring dozens to hundreds of feeds continuously. Not many municipalities are resourced to handle that, and the spectrum issue goes Federal really quickly.

And then you have rural counties to consider... The infrastructure to allow love streaming to HQ would bust their budgets big time.

Yeah... I realize it's a budget buster right now, but the technologies are there and there numerous ways to drive down the cost.

It is just a matter of convincing the bean counters of that. And the procurement people having the knowledge to get more bang for their buck.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 redleger wrote:

2. Memory, see reason above. It is unlikely at this point in our technological development we are going to be able to mesh 1 and 2 together into an 8+ hour shift.
a. The work around is to turn it on when needed. This creates a situation where you have to consciously make the effort to turn it on, and in 90% of cases this may not be an issue, but in the split second oh gak situations, it is not feasible. At that point your are focused on the task at hand or you should be.

With as large of SD cards we have available, I don't think this will, or should be as much an issue as you'd think, especially considering that a movie such as Rambo, when I had downloaded films, took up around 800MB of disk space. That's 2 hours of footage and less than a Gig of space used. From some of the recent events, we have stories of a responding officer "forgetting" to turn his camera on and thus no recording of an incident... I would suggest some means, as we did in Iraq of checking in... Don't most patrol units call in when they go on break, lunch, etc? It could be something as simple as dispatch adding a line to their check-in procedures to remind units to turn on their cameras again.

In previous threads on this issue, some users have brought up the privacy issues of lunch breaks, bathroom breaks, etc. where an officer should rightly be considered "off-duty" but I don't think that being forgetful should be a usable excuse should a camera be off during an incident response.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CptJake wrote:

The tech may be there, for limited numbers of sensors. Even DoD with no real restrictions on spectrum use overseas in a war zone can't manage near that number of live streams. And in many cases civilian spectrum use over there could be chucked out of consideration. The tech is not there, not even close, to enable live streaming for every cop in a big city. Even efficiently used spectrum is a finite resource. In CONUS there are massive chunks of available spectrum blocked off for commercial and private use. There is a lot more to it than tech.

Thinking about this for a second, I agree that there's no way to live-stream in such a way you could conceivably have a "monitor" watching a large number of screens (or even a single screen with the various feeds acting like channels), however there is one way I can think of where it may be feasible. Wi-Fi. If some means were available for compression of data, the packets could be sent similar to how our phones locations, or how we stream video over the air. IP management could make the idea more feasible. But... this is literally just a random thought off the top of my head, and could be completely pants on head crazy as far as reality is concerned.

So on your first point, now we are talking about video quality. Video encoding for Rambo for example is probably in a compressed format such as XVID(AVI) or an MP4 format. I used to host a warez server and I know how very quickly video memory adds up. Now lets look at the amount of memory a few hours of gopro footage takes up. My old 32 gigabite card would fill up at around 2 hours on the highest quality setting. My battery would die at around 3-4. Sometimes I would be riding, and have no idea my battery went out, and thinking Im picking all this up, but when its mounted there is no way to tell. So lets say we turn the video quality down to get all that video on the card, and fix the body cam battery issue. Now there will be complaints once again that you can't see clearly thanks to poor video quality, which in the Scott case was real. That video quality was bad, but I know it was so memory management could be a thing.

I am not saying it can't bedone, I am sayign there are compromises needed based on current capabilities and expectation management. Reality has a vote unfortunately.