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Ok so me and my local group have been arguing/collaborating on an idea for a Skitarii transport. What do you guys think of it and would it be fun?

Edited due to original being OP



BS 4 AV 11/10/10 HP 2 - 65pts

Can be taken in the FA slot.

Special rules:
Open Topped
Skimmer
Transport (10 models)

Equipment:
Cognis Heavy Stubber

Optional Wargear:
Cognis Heavy Stubber +5pts

Heat Shielding +20pts 6++ that if passed ignores the No Escape rule (The Sub-rule for Flamers/Template weapons).
Extra Armor +5pts (ignore crew shaken/crew stunned) [Ultimentra's Suggestion]
Smoke Launchers +5pts



BS 4 AV 11/11/10 HP 2 - 70pts

Can be taken in the FA slot.

Special rules:
Walker/Crawler
Transport (5 models)

Equipment:
Smoke Launchers
Cognis Heavy Stubber

Optional Wargear:
Cognis Heavy Stubber +5pts
Twin Icarus Autocannon +10pts
Heavy Phosphor Blaster +15pts

Heat Shielding +20pts 6++
Galvanic Traction Drive (basically a dozer blade) +10 pts [Ultimentra's Suggestion]
Extra Armor +5pts (ignore crew shaken/crew stunned) [Ultimentra's Suggestion]

Right, two things:

1, why does the Heat Shielding ignore No Escape? That's an assassin rule... That has nothing to do with invulnerable saves.

2, HOLY BEJEESZUS THIS THING IS OP! For 60 points, I get a 12/11/11 2 HP open-topped and fast transport? I would give this to EVERY SINGLE VANGUARD SQUAD I OWN! It lets them move faster, shoot just as well, and protect their squishy butts!

In my opinion, just going off the stats of the average transport vehicle rules GW puts out these days, this vehicle is severely undercosted, and it just wouldn't have 2 hull points.

2 hull points is reserved for much lighter craft like Land Speeders and our skinny chicken walkers. Any kind of dedicated transport meant for an infantry unit like Vanguard would have 3 hull points. There just isn't precedent for a 2 HP vehicle like this.

Open Topped is also questionable IMO, I don't really think it fits the Skitarii aesthetic in terms of rules. Skitarii and the Admech have a general "feel" in terms of rules and making a transport for them needs to jive with that feel.

Assault Ramps needs to go. This is just simply not something that dedicated transports have in this game. Not at 60 points certainly not. You're trying too hard to make something Sicarian units can use when they don't need it. They're fast enough as is.

It being fast is absolutely questionable as well, the only Fast Vehicle transports in existence I think is the Ork Trukk, the Dark Angel Venom, and the Blood Angel Rhino with overcharged engines. Why would the Skitarii have it, especially such low point cost? Again it's not only OP but it's out of place in a Skitarii army.

Nothing in both Admech codexes suggest any kind of synergy with Deep Striking aside from the rarely taken Holy Requisitioner formation. No dedicated transport in the entire game has Deep Strike. None. Why should the Skitarii have one with it?

Sub-Orbital Entry is of course not a factor since Deep Strike should not even exist on this unit.

I mean really I realise that this part of the forum is for wishlisting and trying to come up with cool ideas, but I feel like you didn't even try to balance your idea. It has no semblance of balance in terms of the rest of the codex and its internal synergy, and it has no balance in consideration to what other factions have in terms of Dedicated Transports, the stats of those units, or what the trend is rules-wise for GW when it comes to making rules for transports.

At 60 points, the Skitarii would have something closer to a Chimera or a Razorback. Here's an idea that takes into account actual game balance and synergy with the rest of the codex-

BS 4 AV 11/11/10 OR 12/10/10 HP 3
10 man capacity (standard across the imperium)
2 fire ports (standard across the imperium)

Doctrina Imperatives
Topographic Scan (If the infantry unit embarked upon this vehicle has the ability to make a scout move, this vehicle gains scout)

Wargear:
Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Searchlight

Can Purchase:
Extra Armor +5pts (ignore crew shaken/crew stunned)
Galvanic Traction Drive (basically a dozer blade) +10 pts
Broad-Spectrum Data Tether +5pts
Cognis Manipulator +25pts


Yes these rules aren't exciting, but for dedicated transports they aren't supposed to be. They are a shield for your infantry, nothing more nothing less. The syngery with the rest of the Skitarii codex is evident from it being able to take equipment from the Skitarii Vehicle Equipment list, and since it is armed with a Heavy Phosphor Blaster it can help the infantry that is inside by reducing cover saves and picking off the odd wound or two.

Really, even with the base rules, this transport ought to actually be 70 points IMO.

Sorry to clarify. I meant the No Escape rule for Templates, ie Flamers/Fragcannons on page 173 in the Big Rule Book.

As far as the rules yeah we thought that if we just made it another rhino it'd do what rhinos do, get shot off the map before being able to move. Again we're thinking with how Skitarii are Flexible and mildly tough, but Str 6+ ruins their day.

Spiritfox22 wrote:
Sorry to clarify. I meant the No Escape rule for Templates, ie Flamers/Fragcannons on page 173 in the Big Rule Book.

As far as the rules yeah we thought that if we just made it another rhino it'd do what rhinos do, get shot off the map before being able to move. Again we're thinking with how Skitarii are Flexible and mildly tough, but Str 6+ ruins their day.

Oh, that rule!

...

Seriously? That's a 10 Point upgrade that gives you a 33% chance of ignoring the ONE THING that scares that thing!

Let me put it this way-I'd take this thing for 120 points. That's how good it is.

Ultimentra I'll apologize if I come off as a dick while you read this I am a bit annoyed while I typed this. Don't take the first, second, etc to heart it's to help me organize my thoughts.

 ultimentra wrote:
In my opinion, just going off the stats of the average transport vehicle rules GW puts out these days, this vehicle is severely undercosted, and it just wouldn't have 2 hull points.

2 hull points is reserved for much lighter craft like Land Speeders and our skinny chicken walkers. Any kind of dedicated transport meant for an infantry unit like Vanguard would have 3 hull points. There just isn't precedent for a 2 HP vehicle like this.

Open Topped is also questionable IMO, I don't really think it fits the Skitarii aesthetic in terms of rules. Skitarii and the Admech have a general "feel" in terms of rules and making a transport for them needs to jive with that feel.

Assault Ramps needs to go. This is just simply not something that dedicated transports have in this game. Not at 60 points certainly not. You're trying too hard to make something Sicarian units can use when they don't need it. They're fast enough as is.

It being fast is absolutely questionable as well, the only Fast Vehicle transport in existence I think is the Ork Trukk and the Blood Angel Rhino with overcharged engines. Why would the Skitarii have it, especially such low point cost? Again it's not only OP but it's out of place in a Skitarii army.

Nothing in both Admech codexes suggest any kind of synergy with Deep Striking aside from the rarely taken Holy Requisitioner formation. No dedicated transport in the entire game has Deep Strike. None. Why should the Skitarii have one with it?

Sub-Orbital Entry is of course not a factor since Deep Strike should not even exist on this unit.

At 60 points, the Skitarii would have something closer to a Chimera or a Razorback. Here's an idea that takes into account actual game balance and synergy with the rest of the codex

First, me and the group I play with agreed two hull points generally fit the aesthetic for Skitarii being general glass cannons. As for it being open topped, well lets be honest Skitarii are all linked and sharing information the vehicle being open topped would allow the unit riding in the vehicle to constantly scan the surrounding area looking for movement as they pass areas, more to increase reaction time against ambushes. The fact that some of them get shot in the face while riding would be deemed acceptable since it would reduce overall losses.

Second, with the Assault Ramps, I'll give you that since the only thing the Imperium has with them (Land Raider) costs far to damned much IMO.

Third, the Fast rule. Sure its uncommon, but this isn't made to have massive hard hitting weapons that can scoot around the battlefield and snipe those pesky eldar jetbikes that run out of range.

Lastly, there's no vehicles with Deepstrike? Maybe not specifically stated however there's plenty of vehicles, most notably Skimmers (Landspeeders, Venoms, Raiders, etc) and Droppods that CAN deepstrike. Sure there's nothing really in the codex that makes it viable, however it makes their units a little bit more flexible.

Plus to my knowledge Skitarii are one of very few without the ability to do so in some variance.

Spiritfox22 wrote:
Third, the Fast rule. Sure its uncommon, but this isn't made to have massive hard hitting weapons that can scoot around the battlefield and snipe those pesky eldar jetbikes that run out of range.

Um... 21 Rad Carbine shots and 9 Plasma shots say that yes, this has hard-hitting weapons.

Ok fair, enough I don't tend to run Plasma weaponry in general due to the fact that it costs too much, but I do see your point. To amend it I'll bring this variant up to the rest of the group tomorrow and see what they think.


BS 4 AV 12/11/10 HP 2 - 60pts

Can be taken in the FA slot.

Special rules:
Doctrine Imperatives
Open Topped
Transport (10 models)
Deepstrike
Sub-Orbital Entry*

Sub-Orbital Entry - When a model deep-strikes onto the field roll a D6 on the result of a "1" the unit inside the vehicle takes 1d6 Str 4 AP - hits and the vehicle is immobilized.

Optional Wargear:
Weapons:
Cognis Heavy Stubber +5pts
Twin Icarus Autocannon +10pts and counts as 5 models.
Heavy Phosphor Blaster +15pts and counts as 5 models

Wargear
Heat Shielding +15pts 6++ that if passed ignores the No Escape rule (The rule for Flamers/Template weapons).
Galvanic Traction Drive (basically a dozer blade) +10 pts [Ultimentra's Suggestion]
Extra Armor +5pts (ignore crew shaken/crew stunned) [Ultimentra's Suggestion]
Smoke Launchers +5pts

It's still 60 Points for an Open-Topped transport. That's crazy good with Skitarii shooting.

True, but it's squishy enough with how much multi shot Str6+ there is.

If dedicated transport, would it count as a unit upgrade for War Convocation?

Seriously you can't make a fast well armoured opentopped transport for 60 points. Opentopped is the problem here (fast is a bit of a problem as well) as it lets the whole squad use their weapons - Skitarii have great weapons - plus opentopped makes it an assault vehicle! This just does too much for the points and fixes too many of the weaknesses of the faction. Perhaps look to the admech transports that forgeworld makes for inspiration for something to fit the armies theme.

The closest existing similiar transport I can think of is Harlequin's Starweaver.

BS 4 10/10/10 HP 2, fast, skimmer, open topped
Capacity: 6 models,
5++, upgradeable to 4++ once per game
Comes with 2x shuriken cannon.

And that is it, for 70pt. And Harlequins themselves are very poor shooters (except for Death Jesters, which are single model Elite choice), so it is realy +6" move that can shoot on it's own for a turn or two... Again, for 70 pts.

Of course you and your group can do everything you want and it may very well suit your meta, but I think that this concept is not really portable to any other group. Your approach is not universal enough.

So going back to the first question of 'why' on this one before getting into the OPness the only precedent I've got to work with for Mechanicum non-Walker vehicles are the Macroarid Explorator (Land Raider with weirder guns), Krios (Sicarian chassis with a big hull-mounted gun), and the Triaros (4-HP armoured battering ram) out of the Taghmata list. Nothing in there suggests a Fast, Open-Topped transport with Deep Strike makes any sense at all for the Skitarii.

The rules you've got down are worth at least 100pts as well as making no sense for the army, I'd suggest backing off and trying again.

Spiritfox22 wrote:
Ultimentra I'll apologize if I come off as a dick while you read this I am a bit annoyed while I typed this. Don't take the first, second, etc to heart it's to help me organize my thoughts.

First, me and the group I play with agreed two hull points generally fit the aesthetic for Skitarii being general glass cannons. As for it being open topped, well lets be honest Skitarii are all linked and sharing information the vehicle being open topped would allow the unit riding in the vehicle to constantly scan the surrounding area looking for movement as they pass areas, more to increase reaction time against ambushes. The fact that some of them get shot in the face while riding would be deemed acceptable since it would reduce overall losses.

The only open-topped 2 hull point transport in the entirety of the Imperium is the Land Speeder Storm, and it can only carry Space Marine Scouts, has AV 10 all the way around, and can only carry 5 models. That is at 40 points. Your proposed vehicle is 20 points more. So you're telling me, that 20 points buys +2 AV on the front, +1 on the back and sides, +5 capacity, and the ability to deep strike?Your proposed vehicle is not a skimmer, so it having that ability is unusual. And it has Doctrina Imperatives, and it carry the very dangerous Skitarii Vanguard and Ranger squads which carry much better weaponry than Scouts. 20 more points for all of that. Think about it.

Third, the Fast rule. Sure its uncommon, but this isn't made to have massive hard hitting weapons that can scoot around the battlefield and snipe those pesky eldar jetbikes that run out of range.

It's uncommon because it fits the theme of the factions that get it. Dark Eldar, Orks (barely), Blood Angels, Harlequins, yes they get it because their armies are almost designed around that being one of their few viable options for victory in the field, utilizing their speed. Skitarii can already get up the field fairly quickly due to scout, they don't need a fast dedicated transport too. Tables are only 6x4.

Lastly, there's no vehicles with Deepstrike? Maybe not specifically stated however there's plenty of vehicles, most notably Skimmers (Landspeeders, Venoms, Raiders, etc) and Droppods that CAN deepstrike. Sure there's nothing really in the codex that makes it viable, however it makes their units a little bit more flexible.

Skimmers rules are made from the ground up to be able to utilize Deep Strike on the odd occasion, but it is still very dangerous and those Skimmer transports pay for their rules in points. They are either expensive and have decent durability, or they can be torn apart by bolter fire. Your proposed vehicle is not only open topped, but it is also safe from small arms fire on all sides. There is not a vehicle in 40k that does this because it would be OP. You have to do some give and take. Even the Wave Serpent isn't open topped and is expensive as hell.

Drop pods are different beast entirely, not only are they a one shot wonder but they are immobile when they come onto the field. They are not a typical transport that you can compare your proposed vehicle to in an attempt to justify giving it deep strike.

Plus to my knowledge Skitarii are one of very few without the ability to do so in some variance.

This is purposeful game design. You do not cover a rock in blades so it is protected from paper. (Rock, Paper, Scissors)

Setting aside balance issues for a moment, my main issue is that I'm having trouble picturing this thing. The initial version gave it better armor than a chimera yet fewer hull points. It's able to deepstrike and move fast but doesn't seem to have the skimmer rule. It has retrothrusters that prevent it from being immobilized by difficult terrain, yet its landings are rough enough to harm the passengers inside. It's open-topped, yet has assault ramps.

So my first thought is that you might not quite have a clear idea of what exactly this thing is supposed to be. My followup thought is that you might want it to do too many different things and that it should, therefore, perhaps be several different vehicles. Case and point, you have the option for it to take a weapons array that eats up transport capacity. IN the same way that a rhino and razorback are two different things, the 5 capacity and 10 capacity variants could probably stand to be different things.

Now in defense of some of the "OPness" of what you have so far, this is the mechanicus we're talking about. Machines are their thing. I don't think it's unreasonable for them to be able to design some pretty impressive vehicles that they retain for their own use.

Now onto specifics. People have already torn this thing apart enough, so I won't take the time to point out flaws. Instead, let's try to put together something reasonable form what you have. The main focus of this thing seems to be a fast-moving transport for skitarii that can be flexible in how it goes about doing that. So something similar to a land speeder, basically. How about something like this?

Rust Speeder
BS 4 AV 10/10/10 HP3
Transport Capacity: 10
Vehicle, Fast, Skimmer, Open-Topped
Gear: Twin-lInked heavy stubber
Special Rules: Scout

So that gives us a slightly less flexible/powerful human version of a dark eldar raider. Give it weapon options to taste, and maybe give it a piece of wargear that gives it deepstrike for 5 points. I'd drop the sub-orbital entry angle. It's an extra rule that takes time to resolve that is also self-contradictory (smoother landing where terrain is concerned, but potential to hurt passengers?) Plus it's mildly redundant if you take the dozer blade equivalent. And even if you did hurt guys inside, it's unlikely to significantly lower your firepower, and no one would feel very good about it even if you did lose a few guys.

It's fast, can outflank, can be upgraded to deepstrike, and can carry a nasty load of firepower in the form of the skitarii inside. Being open-topped makes it more vulnerable than the average bear, but it also lets your passengers assault out of it thus taking advantage of their relentless rule. I'd price it similarly to a raider as their stats are similar, scout makes up for the lack of innate deepstrike, and its starting weapon isn't as good as the raider's disintegrator. *Maybe* give it an option to increase its front armor by 1 or 2 AV.

So that's a simple, straight-forward transport that's very similar to an existing one in the form of a raider. But you also seem to want something a little more offensively-inclined.

So let's do something like this:

Rust Striker
BS 4, AV11/10/10 HP3
Vehicle, Fast, Skimmer, Closed-top
Transport Capacity: 5
Special Rules: Scout
Gear: two twin-linked heavy stubbers
Options: Give it gun upgrade options to taste.

So this would give you an option with more firepower and armor, but less room to put dudes. You won't benefit from your passengers as much because it isn't open-topped and allows fewer dudes inside (and thus fewer special weapons), but it brings its own firepower to help out. I'd probably price it similarly to a dark eldar venom minus a couple points for not having an invul save innately, for not being open-topped, and for having weapons that are slightly less good than splinter cannons. Although the AV 11 on the front armor probably earns it a couple points back.

Between these two, you have the "I want a way to get my squad of dudes into the fight fast and let them unleash a squad's worth of firepower!" option, and then you also have the, "I want to run MSU with transports that can bring their own firepower and offer slightly more protection" option.