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If Long Fangs can get split fire, (and Havocs in CSM Codex? not sure) then why can't Devastators?

Be a points cost of say 50 points but can split fire.

Codex marines get the thing that lets one gun shoot at BS5 instead. Fluff wise it doesn't make much sense, given the fluff justification for Long Fangs having split fire is due to them
essentially be the Vets of a Space Wolf army, while Dev's are still the beginnners to an extent

In the 9th Company they're beginners, by time they're in a Battle Company they're pretty established as hardened Devastator Marines.


Yes they get the Signum, and yes I know you could just ramp them up to 10 men and take 2 combat squads but a perk where you could give them Split Fire for extra points cost would be nice.

BA devs aren't beginners. But whatever.

 Corennus wrote:
In the 9th Company they're beginners, by time they're in a Battle Company they're pretty established as hardened Devastator Marines.


Yes they get the Signum, and yes I know you could just ramp them up to 10 men and take 2 combat squads but a perk where you could give them Split Fire for extra points cost would be nice.

You just want to make them better than Long Fangs at that point.

I'm not sure if this is actually canonical in any way, but I know a lot of people treat the actual Devastators (ie the ones with the big guns) as trained Marines, while the "bolter brothers" or "bullet catchers" are the trainees attached to the squad. It makes a lot more sense that way.

Havocs don't get Split Fire. Havocs don't get anything.

The difference between the Devastators and long fangs is basically that long fangs have known and fought alongside each other for years and they work extremely cohesively as a unit. They understand their tasks, their weapons, and their entire pack's capabilities. This is reflected in Split Fire. I think Signum + grav cannons is plently for devastators, they don't really need a buff in my humble opinion.

~Mikey

 Corennus wrote:
If Long Fangs can get split fire, (and Havocs in CSM Codex? not sure) then why can't Devastators?

Be a points cost of say 50 points but can split fire.

At that point we're wandering into the domain of 'why doesn't [insert heavy weapon unit here] get Split Fire?' Why don't Dark Reapers? Purifiers? Guard heavy weapon teams? Retributors? Scourges? Why don't mixed-weapon units in general? Tactical Marines, Guardian Defenders...

Absent a reason to give Devastators Split Fire other than 'why can't they?' I'd leave it as Long Fangs' shtick, if I were you.

I'm not sure if this is actually canonical in any way, but I know a lot of people treat the actual Devastators (ie the ones with the big guns) as trained Marines, while the "bolter brothers" or "bullet catchers" are the trainees attached to the squad. It makes a lot more sense that way.

Havocs don't get Split Fire. Havocs don't get anything.

No, it's the opposite. Except for Space Wolves, Devastators are usually kept in the rear due to less combat experience.

Also, the old rule for space wolves is half the unit could fire at something differently to reflect their battle experience and independence. However, what Space Wolves don't have is the ability to combat squad. Typically in lore, Devastators are supposed to be run as 10 man squads so you can combat squad them and have them fire at separate targets if you want to go the lore friendly route.

Meh, Split Fire does make sense, but I don't like the construction rules for the squad's creation myself. Personally I think a base Devastator squad should be a 2-man squad (Heavy Weapon guy and a "minder" to help fend off enemy infantry), and the squad should only get one additional heavy weapon per two additional members (10 max). But that's just me.

Alternatively, you could run the squad as 5 man with 2 heavy weapons and a sergeant. That's what I usually do because I like having meat shields to soak up wounds before getting to my expensive heavies.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
If Long Fangs can get split fire, (and Havocs in CSM Codex? not sure) then why can't Devastators?

Be a points cost of say 50 points but can split fire.

At that point we're wandering into the domain of 'why doesn't [insert heavy weapon unit here] get Split Fire?' Why don't Dark Reapers? Purifiers? Guard heavy weapon teams? Retributors? Scourges? Why don't mixed-weapon units in general? Tactical Marines, Guardian Defenders...

Absent a reason to give Devastators Split Fire other than 'why can't they?' I'd leave it as Long Fangs' shtick, if I were you.

Why doesn't every single Tyranid unit have split fire?

Not only is every single organism a veteran of every single engagement the hive mind has been in since it first took control and began breeding organisms just to go out kill die and be reabsorbed as gruel, but the weapons themselves are their own organisms and sometimes (often) the bullets are as well.

By the veteran argument every shot from a HT tldwblw should be able to shoot at a different target if so desired. ::rolls eyes::

Well, if you play Dark Heresy or any of the 40k RPGs, everyone gets to split fire.

Or Kill Teams.

 Corennus wrote:
In the 9th Company they're beginners, by time they're in a Battle Company they're pretty established as hardened Devastator Marines.

That's 9th Company. Every Battle Company carries two Devastator Squads who have been through the 9th, 8th, and Reserve Tactical Companies.

But why can't Devastator Squads get Split Fire? Of what use would it be? It would be better placed on Tactical Squads. You're talking about an ability that allows one model to fire at a different target. If you take four Heavy Weapons in the squad, why would you want just one Heavy Weapon to being fired at a different target? What would be the use of having one Bolter fired at a different target?

Realistically, the concept that all models in a unit have to fire at the same target is really pretty stupid in the first place.

Space Wolves have enough schticks. Just sayin'. They already single handedly wallpaper at least three other armies in the game.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
In the 9th Company they're beginners, by time they're in a Battle Company they're pretty established as hardened Devastator Marines.

That's 9th Company. Every Battle Company carries two Devastator Squads who have been through the 9th, 8th, and Reserve Tactical Companies.

But why can't Devastator Squads get Split Fire? Of what use would it be? It would be better placed on Tactical Squads. You're talking about an ability that allows one model to fire at a different target. If you take four Heavy Weapons in the squad, why would you want just one Heavy Weapon to being fired at a different target? What would be the use of having one Bolter fired at a different target?

Realistically, the concept that all models in a unit have to fire at the same target is really pretty stupid in the first place.

Because with split fire on one model/the whole squad the skyhammer annihilation force would be able to negate overwatch/force go to ground on 6/8 units per turn. It's good enough as it is with up to four squads affected if you combat squad your devs. They could of course just have removed split fire from this formation or w-ever...

Codex Marines can combat squad, have access to chapter tactics that benefit their shooting (sorry Black Templar ), and BS5 on one of their shooters. These lads follow the codex astartes to the letter and it brings a tear to the spiritual liege Rowboat Guilliman's eye.

Space Wolves have one old coot in the lot too drunk to be bothered with following directions and just shooting whatever the feth he wolfin feels like

Keibo wrote:
Because with split fire on one model/the whole squad the skyhammer annihilation force would be able to negate overwatch/force go to ground on 6/8 units per turn. It's good enough as it is with up to four squads affected if you combat squad your devs. They could of course just have removed split fire from this formation or w-ever...

Giving a keyword to a unit and then writing 'this unit loses this keyword' in a formation is pretty terrible design.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Keibo wrote:
Because with split fire on one model/the whole squad the skyhammer annihilation force would be able to negate overwatch/force go to ground on 6/8 units per turn. It's good enough as it is with up to four squads affected if you combat squad your devs. They could of course just have removed split fire from this formation or w-ever...

Giving a keyword to a unit and then writing 'this unit loses this keyword' in a formation is pretty terrible design.

I think the general theme of the thread is that giving them splitfire at all is pretty terrible design.

Keibo wrote:Because with split fire on one model/the whole squad the skyhammer annihilation force would be able to negate overwatch/force go to ground on 6/8 units per turn. It's good enough as it is with up to four squads affected if you combat squad your devs. They could of course just have removed split fire from this formation or w-ever...

No, it wouldn't. Split Fire allows a model to chose another target and fire, not the unit. The unit still has its own target to fire at. The Skyhammer Annihilation Force only affects Devastator Squads, not Marines in Devastator Squads.

 Charistoph wrote:

Keibo wrote:Because with split fire on one model/the whole squad the skyhammer annihilation force would be able to negate overwatch/force go to ground on 6/8 units per turn. It's good enough as it is with up to four squads affected if you combat squad your devs. They could of course just have removed split fire from this formation or w-ever...

No, it wouldn't. Split Fire allows a model to chose another target and fire, not the unit. The unit still has its own target to fire at. The Skyhammer Annihilation Force only affects Devastator Squads, not Marines in Devastator Squads.

The split-fire rule and who it targets is a question that have been debated several times. Here the local tournaments states that split-fire units declares two targets and can charge both. If they declare both of the units shot at as targets this rule would allow for both units to be affected. But you are right, it depends on how you interprit split-fire.

Edit: Adepticon 2015 also used this interpretation for split-fire.

Adepticon 2015: wrote:If a unit has a special rule that allows it to fire at multiple targets in the Shooting phase (such as the Split Fire
special rule, for example), the unit may declare a charge against any of those targets in the Assault phase.

But that's going off topic. =) I do believe what Vankraken said though. Combat squads and Chepter Tactics is enough and keeps them more fluff-Guilliman-correct. =)

Keibo wrote:
The split-fire rule and who it targets is a question that have been debated several times. Here the local tournaments states that split-fire units declares two targets and can charge both. If they declare both of the units shot at as targets this rule would allow for both units to be affected. But you are right, it depends on how you interprit split-fire.

Edit: Adepticon 2015 also used this interpretation for split-fire.

Adepticon 2015: wrote:If a unit has a special rule that allows it to fire at multiple targets in the Shooting phase (such as the Split Fire
special rule, for example), the unit may declare a charge against any of those targets in the Assault phase.

But that's going off topic. =) I do believe what Vankraken said though. Combat squads and Chepter Tactics is enough and keeps them more fluff-Guilliman-correct. =)

And that's great for you and your group. Unfortunately, that doesn't work for other groups that do not follow the same program. Rules changes shouldn't always be written with House Rules, at least not without prefacing those other changes to give context.

But yeah, Split Fire for Devastators is stupid. Devastators are what makes Combat Squads REALLY useful. Split Fire for Tacticals would be better (and more in keeping with their "more expert" role).