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Hey all, played 40k back in 2nd and some third then dropped it until 7th, I have alot of time and income, and got the wife playing last year. She wanted Eldar, while I played CSM. I now have KDK, CSM, Tyranids, and starting up Tau. Now, I have the tactical edge, but I cant help but get pissy at the strength of the eldar. I know i'm playing low tier codexes(except for KDK and soon Tau) at the moment and I expect to lose most games. I don't bring cheese, as I want to win by playing smarter then the enemy. Problem is, the whole damn eldar book is cheese lol.

My issue isn't winning or losing, but trying to have fun against 95 point warp spiders that take out entire units and jump away, being unable to shoot them off the table with their jump. The scatter bikes I have learned to be okay with, kind of lol. And My wife has no concept of tuning down her list, because while she likes to play, list building and what not is not her thing, and she doesn't really understand the insane power differences.

Basically, how would you guys keep a level head and keep this game fun in this situation lol, because i'm having a rough time of it.

Go read my recent thread titled "bring your chaos tears" share your salt with your brothers. Its a group support thread.

yea i've been following it lol

I play Eldar, its my first love and absolutely favorite army, and I absolutely recognize that its way overpowered compared to CSM, Tyranids, and KDK. Its actually hard to build coherent TAC lists with Eldar that are not overpowered compared to weaker armies.

Several months ago, a friend of mine asked to play a casual game against a nicely painted army. Not knowing what he would bring, I put together a Battehost list with my best painted stuff, with some Guardians in Wave Serpents and an Aspect Host with some Fire dragons and Dire Avengers. No Warp Spiders, no D weapons, no Jetbikes, no Wraithknight. He shows up to the game with a beautiful Blood Angels army. It was super fluffy; Land Raider with Assault Terminators, Assault Marines with Chaplain, Furioso Dread in a drop pod, Tactical marines in Rhinos. The game started going south for him pretty quickly by turn 2. I can see he's getting frustrated, so I start to get a little wacky, like charge marines with Dire avengers, and the Chaplain with a War Walker, just to make it interesting and to get some assaults in because that is what he was hoping to do with his army. I won, and in the end it was a fun game, but I shudder to think how angry he would be against a player who just did not care about him having a good time.

I learned that I absolutely will not run Eldar unless its an ITC event or I know roughly what I'm facing and I have had the conversation with my opponent. I own Harlequins for this very reason, to play fun casual games with. At tournaments, there are plenty of things that can compete with Eldar. For casual games, its really hard to strike that balance.

My advice: simply ask your Eldar opponent, in this case your wife, not to bring the big 3 (warp spiders, scatter bikes, wraithknights). Recognize that GW gave Eldar way too much stuff. Try and understand that many Eldar players know this already, but all we can do it match what you have; we can't keep apologizing for our army. And for god's sake, don't tell her about the Warp Hunter!

I play both CSM and Eldar as my two main armies.

I tend to fill out the CSM heavy slots with 4x AC havocs as you get a lot of high strength shots off a turn with them which can get MSU's running away. Similarly with the troops and fast attack choices I tend to fill up with as much melta as possible for instakilling enough models each turn to force morale checks. Raptors with x2 meltas are good for intercepting skimmers or hurty squads somewhere away from your squishy/important units.

Sticking MoN on as much as you can also helps prevent you picking up too many models from the table each turn.

Thankfully the club I play at has a good range of skills and most people are after a fun game, but CSM is a really hard army to play when you are facing forces with soooo many more tricks up their sleves than you.

When I know that I have no chance, I tend to create objectives for myself such as wiping out a specific unit, or getting to a certain point/objective.

I have to say that it is really hard sometimes playing with my Eldar to tone things down even when just bringing along random lists; I've only brought a semi-competetive list once against someone who was prepping for a tournament and pretty much tabled him by the end of turn 3... which I have certainly never gotten anywhere close to doing with my CSM

I didn't understand the warp spiders until I learned to play them correctly.. I get your point, I'll shelve them for a bit.. as for the knight he's been house ruled since first game.. I'll shelve the bikes too as long as you're not rolling KDK or a bunch of tau riptides...this is why I make you eggs and bacon every morning, I feel bad )))

This is what needs to happen more often. Open communication between people, not dakka advice posts.

Eldar are so varied its difficult to really counter them, if your going up against ordinary aspect warriors, swarm them with respawning cultists, if your going up against a wraith army... it gets a little difficult as there isn't much of a way of dealing with an army with all models above toughness 6, especially with Str D weapons taking a daemon prince is suicide, bikes with plasma are probably your best bet against them. Then there are warpspiders and jetbikes... all are very difficult to deal with.

Personally my close friend has 2 eldar armies (wraith and aspect warriors) and I play against them on regular occasions. Surprisingly my emperors children do really well against most of his troops! High initiative makes warpspiders not as good, blastmasters make short work of both wraiths and jetbikes (goodbye cover saves!) And they are massivly outranged by the blastmasters. Not so good against wraithknights and warpspiders but I do reccomend allying in some noise marines with blastermasters and give them a try. Just don't shoot any models that have more than 1 wound with them (wraithknight)

I dunno, what are all your thoughts?

Reavas wrote:
Eldar are so varied its difficult to really counter them, if your going up against ordinary aspect warriors, swarm them with respawning cultists, if your going up against a wraith army... it gets a little difficult as there isn't much of a way of dealing with an army with all models above toughness 6, especially with Str D weapons taking a daemon prince is suicide, bikes with plasma are probably your best bet against them. Then there are warpspiders and jetbikes... all are very difficult to deal with.

Personally my close friend has 2 eldar armies (wraith and aspect warriors) and I play against them on regular occasions. Surprisingly my emperors children do really well against most of his troops! High initiative makes warpspiders not as good, blastmasters make short work of both wraiths and jetbikes (goodbye cover saves!) And they are massivly outranged by the blastmasters. Not so good against wraithknights and warpspiders but I do reccomend allying in some noise marines with blastermasters and give them a try. Just don't shoot any models that have more than 1 wound with them (wraithknight)

I dunno, what are all your thoughts?

There is no hope verses elder. You have to break your back to counter them, and they just need to maneuver slightly differently to counter you. Your only option as chaos is to shelve your army for now and pick up another army, or sell your army outright because you can't afford a brand new army. No use hanging on to the army either because chaos isn't going to be up to speed for at least three more years is my guess.

Or you can just keep buying chaos everything, and not play them. Just sit alone in your room for years, painting and detailing, and detailing some more. Then keep doing that for years until you own upwards of 10000 points of chaos. Keep shining their swords and sharpening their knives. Then some day, some wonderful day, when a new book comes out that will realize your armies' potential, come out from hiding. Everyone will have thought you had left warhammer 40k for good, but no, you had been training, preparing, and brooding for this moment. Return with such vengeance and hatred that you will not hold back, and you will destroy everything in your path. Like a true chaos crusade, wait for the right moment, then burst forth from the Eye of Terror and unleash your pain on the whole universe. And when they cry and complain that you are OP and that it's not fair. Reassure them that it's true. It isn't fair, but it's what they DESERVE. All of them, each and every one of them deserve to be obliterated into oblivion. And if they ask you to play with a fluffy army, tell them you will do so. But on game day bring the meanest nastiest, ugliest army you can. Give them no opportunity for victory, give them no opportunity for enjoyment. Your only goal is to inflict as much pain and suffering as possible. And when they cry, and they will cry, laugh at them, drink their salty tears, and bath in their sweet, sweet blood.

There is no hope verses elder. You have to break your back to counter them, and they just need to maneuver slightly differently to counter you. Your only option as chaos is to shelve your army for now and pick up another army, or sell your army outright because you can't afford a brand new army. No use hanging on to the army either because chaos isn't going to be up to speed for at least three more years is my guess.

Or you can just keep buying chaos everything, and not play them. Just sit alone in your room for years, painting and detailing, and detailing some more. Then keep doing that for years until you own upwards of 10000 points of chaos. Keep shining their swords and sharpening their knives. Then some day, some wonderful day, when a new book comes out that will realize your armies' potential, come out from hiding. Everyone will have thought you had left warhammer 40k for good, but no, you had been training, preparing, and brooding for this moment. Return with such vengeance and hatred that you will not hold back, and you will destroy everything in your path. Like a true chaos crusade, wait for the right moment, then burst forth from the Eye of Terror and unleash your pain on the whole universe. And when they cry and complain that you are OP and that it's not fair. Reassure them that it's true. It isn't fair, but it's what they DESERVE. All of them, each and every one of them deserve to be obliterated into oblivion. And if they ask you to play with a fluffy army, tell them you will do so. But on game day bring the meanest nastiest, ugliest army you can. Give them no opportunity for victory, give them no opportunity for enjoyment. Your only goal is to inflict as much pain and suffering as possible. And when they cry, and they will cry, laugh at them, drink their salty tears, and bath in their sweet, sweet blood.

The really sad part is that, while Eldar have 3 super-powerful units, it's an easy to fix by not bringing them. Then you look at some other codices that just have entire overpowered formations (War Convocation, Decurion, Gladius) and that's a whole different level of cheese. Glad you guys are working things out

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
The really sad part is that, while Eldar have 3 super-powerful units, it's an easy to fix by not bringing them. Then you look at some other codices that just have entire overpowered formations (War Convocation, Decurion, Gladius) and that's a whole different level of cheese. Glad you guys are working things out

WraithKnights
Scat Bikes
Warp Spiders
Fire Dragons
D-Wraiths

So what your saying is that if you remove all those units Eldar aren't that bad. True they arent but they are still head and shoulders over most other codexs.

SemperMortis wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
The really sad part is that, while Eldar have 3 super-powerful units, it's an easy to fix by not bringing them. Then you look at some other codices that just have entire overpowered formations (War Convocation, Decurion, Gladius) and that's a whole different level of cheese. Glad you guys are working things out

WraithKnights
Scat Bikes
Warp Spiders
Fire Dragons
D-Wraiths

So what your saying is that if you remove all those units Eldar aren't that bad. True they arent but they are still head and shoulders over most other codexs.

I would not put the dragons at the level of the other four. They are designed in a childish, annoying way ("+ to the damage table? from an entire units of meltas? is not enough, let's add another +1") but, say, charge them, charge an unit of D-wraiths and then come back to me to tell the difference.

Tangentially: this is the cutest thread ever.

Nothing like running Open topped vehicles that don't get an invul or a jink save against Fire dragons in an eldar list (or D weapons for that matter) +4 on the dmg chart means that on a 3+ my Trukks and Battlewagonz explode. Which means that they WILL explode which means I lose 50% of the models inside.

SemperMortis wrote:
Nothing like running Open topped vehicles that don't get an invul or a jink save against Fire dragons in an eldar list (or D weapons for that matter) +4 on the dmg chart means that on a 3+ my Trukks and Battlewagonz explode. Which means that they WILL explode which means I lose 50% of the models inside.

I see the point but they would on a 4+ nonetheless, right? Is more of a problem of how the open topped vehicles rules were written (in short: "I hate Orks and Dark Eldar: game design principles") and removal of stuff like ramshackle.

Still, I see the point, and as stated, the additional +1 of the dragons is overkill.

i'm okay with the dragons, they basically get free bonuses because Eldar, but I know before the game starts that one of my vehicles or walkers is dead, then I usually kill them, no big deal and part of the game =).

Actually against OT vehicles melta is only +3, firedragons get the +4 because reasons.

I remember one game where a unit of Killa kanz got knocked out of the game (5 kanz) by a single unit of Firedragons because +3 meant a lot of immobilized/explodes results

The Eldar are like Wolverine: they are the best at what they do. Unfortunately, that's everything.

You really can't make a toned down list with eldar. The only not great units in the army are rangers/howling banshees/and vibro cannons. I routinely house competitive armies with "toned down" eldar lists. The problem is eldar weapons are just flat out better than everyone elses.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You really can't make a toned down list with eldar. The only not great units in the army are rangers/howling banshees/and vibro cannons. I routinely house competitive armies with "toned down" eldar lists. The problem is eldar weapons are just flat out better than everyone elses.

The problem is that people believe that and don't have a modicum of gray matter.
Wanna make it friendly? Don't spam the specialists, don't bring scatbikes, nor spiders and wraithknights. Done.

-Shinning spears are so-so
-Prisms suffer from one shot syndrome and low strength on the big pieplate.
-Many vehicles are tissue paper.
-Guardians are flimsy at the very best.
-Warlocks aren't exactly point efficient.
-Etc.

So this is all about what is a reasonable amount of Eldar stuff to leave at home until the army is at the same level as the next best army?
But not be like Art Jimmerson (UFC, the guy with the one boxing glove) in a fight?

Just have escalation games.
1500 point game and then the opponent keeps getting 100 points (for a tabling, 200) more for free for each loss OR the Eldar player less 100 pts per win, a handicap just like golf.
I think no-one should play with less than they should, but fielding more makes it fun!
See what it takes.
Taking on Imperial Guard that is pretty "realistic": they deploy/reinforce IG/AM in direct proportion to the threat level.

I do not mind playing an obviously unmatched game once, sometimes the most amazing upsets can happen.
Or you die like a dog and see if you can say you learned anything from it (other than not playing that again).

To think I had a "spare" army I gave to a cousin and it happened to be Eldar... the kicking I give myself each time I play them... it is somewhere in the realm of "no good deed goes unpunished"!

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You really can't make a toned down list with eldar. The only not great units in the army are rangers/howling banshees/and vibro cannons. I routinely house competitive armies with "toned down" eldar lists. The problem is eldar weapons are just flat out better than everyone elses.

The problem is that people believe that and don't have a modicum of gray matter.
Wanna make it friendly? Don't spam the specialists, don't bring scatbikes, nor spiders and wraithknights. Done.

-Shinning spears are so-so
-Prisms suffer from one shot syndrome and low strength on the big pieplate.
-Many vehicles are tissue paper.
-Guardians are flimsy at the very best.
-Warlocks aren't exactly point efficient.
-Etc.

Shining spears are fine, they just aren't scat bike stupid OP. 25pts for a 3+ Jetbike that comes stock with an AP3 close combat weapon and a S6 Lance.......Yeah terrible.

Prisms are great at what they do and offer tactical flexibility. In almost any other codex this would be a good unit. S5 AP3 large blast is bad? really? Did you forget you can have a S7 AP2 (Plasma Cannon basically) small blast THAT DOESN'T OVER HEAT! Or how about the S9Ap1 shot, not bad...Ohh yeah its a LANCE so its always going to pen on 4s. At AP1 thats +2 on the chart so if it wasn't for the plethora of other really really good anti-tank units you have this thing would be money, and it can be taken in squadrons for extra giggles.

almost every Eldar Vehicle is a skimmer and gets jink, you are either being purposefully dense or flat out lying.

Guardians are point for point as good as Space Marines and markedly better in some ways. 125pts gets you 10 of the little buggers with guess what? Another ML1 Psyker.

Warlocks are good. Sorry they aren't super under costed but your still getting. 35pts for a ML1 Psyker with access to great powers ohh and did I mention he comes STOCK with a 4++ save?


So those units you just said aren't that good would be considered auto-takes in almost every other codex. Sorry to burst your bubble, but except against Tau, Eldar, SM cheese you guys are OP as hell in almost every way.

Take stuff that has long range (autocannons, havoc launchers, etc) and that can charge from deep strike. Stick a Spineshiver blade on the Raptor Talon Chaos Lord.

Well... if you want to start a new army that isn't suck fest central.

Renegades and Heretics.

Its a FW renegade guard army and it is a cog wrench in the meta. It has more bodies then orks and more guns than tau. Plus its battle bros with CSM and Daemons. Everything is dirt cheap and has long range. You wont mind losing bodies because a platoon of 30 is about 150pt (with upgrades) You can get al the goodies AM have, and then some, for cheaper on the most part. Bikes? Wyverns, Anything else, EARTHSHAKER CANNONS, zombies, spawn.

Also they have better zombies than Typhus.

As for your original question. I dislike fighting eldar because as an opponent I find it hard to keep up with all their special rules. I also find that the few eldar players in my area have the need to horribly table their opponents and that is no fun, so I just stopped playing against them. The last standard game I had against eldar was with my R&H, there wasn't much the eldar player could do, they couldn't hide, and they didn't have enough lasers to kill all my dudes. The opponent raged and I swore off on that opponent. Salt always comes from my opponents attitude, instead of the army they play. It sounds like in this case, you might just not want to field your CSM against eldar. I know it stinks butt, but it is the situation. I don't field my R&H against my CSM friend because we found out the hard way that it will be a rough battle unless I play them as AM. So I play my Space wolves and its a good time! He just doesn't own the models needed to make it a fair fight.


Short of that, look into Forge World stuff to balance the playing field. There is some sweet artillery chaos can get, I think there is also the sicarian, which disallows jink saves.

For friendly games, there is another shockingly simple answer: different point values. If, like most people your aim is to have a competitive, close-run game where either player can win...find a simple points ratio between your armies which let you comfortably do this. If you need to run 2250 Chaos vs. 1850 Eldar...do it. If you're not playing in a tournament, who cares. It's easier than list tailoring - the Eldar player gets to bring his/her favourite toys (as imbalanced as the game is I can imagine it's frustrating when an Eldar player spends a lot of time painting up Warp Spiders or a Wraithknight etc. and then never gets to field it because it's too powerful).

So, run unequal point values for three or four games until you find a suitable "match" and then play games at that level. It doesn't take anything away from the player with the weaker force. It's a silly fix, but worth considering.

@Elbows: Think I proposed the "handicap" method earlier.

SemperMortis wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You really can't make a toned down list with eldar. The only not great units in the army are rangers/howling banshees/and vibro cannons. I routinely house competitive armies with "toned down" eldar lists. The problem is eldar weapons are just flat out better than everyone elses.

The problem is that people believe that and don't have a modicum of gray matter.
Wanna make it friendly? Don't spam the specialists, don't bring scatbikes, nor spiders and wraithknights. Done.

-Shinning spears are so-so
-Prisms suffer from one shot syndrome and low strength on the big pieplate.
-Many vehicles are tissue paper.
-Guardians are flimsy at the very best.
-Warlocks aren't exactly point efficient.
-Etc.

Shining spears are fine, they just aren't scat bike stupid OP. 25pts for a 3+ Jetbike that comes stock with an AP3 close combat weapon and a S6 Lance.......Yeah terrible.

Prisms are great at what they do and offer tactical flexibility. In almost any other codex this would be a good unit. S5 AP3 large blast is bad? really? Did you forget you can have a S7 AP2 (Plasma Cannon basically) small blast THAT DOESN'T OVER HEAT! Or how about the S9Ap1 shot, not bad...Ohh yeah its a LANCE so its always going to pen on 4s. At AP1 thats +2 on the chart so if it wasn't for the plethora of other really really good anti-tank units you have this thing would be money, and it can be taken in squadrons for extra giggles.

almost every Eldar Vehicle is a skimmer and gets jink, you are either being purposefully dense or flat out lying.

Guardians are point for point as good as Space Marines and markedly better in some ways. 125pts gets you 10 of the little buggers with guess what? Another ML1 Psyker.

Warlocks are good. Sorry they aren't super under costed but your still getting. 35pts for a ML1 Psyker with access to great powers ohh and did I mention he comes STOCK with a 4++ save?


So those units you just said aren't that good would be considered auto-takes in almost every other codex. Sorry to burst your bubble, but except against Tau, Eldar, SM cheese you guys are OP as hell in almost every way.

I love guardians. Seriously overlooked because for the cost of 3 of them you can get a scatter bike. I take them in the battle-host which basically turns them into jump infantry because they have an auto 6 inch run and can shoot after they run.
That's a lot rending shots. Every army needs chaf - eldar chaf can bring down storm surges and wraithknights though...see - not really "toned down".

Practically every game I've played a single fire prism - it has done quality work. Falcons aren't bad ether.

Warwalkers are awesome - nuff said. Overshadowed by another super OP unit (hornets) would be auto include in any other army.

SemperMortis wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You really can't make a toned down list with eldar. The only not great units in the army are rangers/howling banshees/and vibro cannons. I routinely house competitive armies with "toned down" eldar lists. The problem is eldar weapons are just flat out better than everyone elses.

The problem is that people believe that and don't have a modicum of gray matter.
Wanna make it friendly? Don't spam the specialists, don't bring scatbikes, nor spiders and wraithknights. Done.

-Shinning spears are so-so
-Prisms suffer from one shot syndrome and low strength on the big pieplate.
-Many vehicles are tissue paper.
-Guardians are flimsy at the very best.
-Warlocks aren't exactly point efficient.
-Etc.

Shining spears are fine, they just aren't scat bike stupid OP. 25pts for a 3+ Jetbike that comes stock with an AP3 close combat weapon and a S6 Lance.......Yeah terrible.

Prisms are great at what they do and offer tactical flexibility. In almost any other codex this would be a good unit. S5 AP3 large blast is bad? really? Did you forget you can have a S7 AP2 (Plasma Cannon basically) small blast THAT DOESN'T OVER HEAT! Or how about the S9Ap1 shot, not bad...Ohh yeah its a LANCE so its always going to pen on 4s. At AP1 thats +2 on the chart so if it wasn't for the plethora of other really really good anti-tank units you have this thing would be money, and it can be taken in squadrons for extra giggles.

almost every Eldar Vehicle is a skimmer and gets jink, you are either being purposefully dense or flat out lying.

Guardians are point for point as good as Space Marines and markedly better in some ways. 125pts gets you 10 of the little buggers with guess what? Another ML1 Psyker.

Warlocks are good. Sorry they aren't super under costed but your still getting. 35pts for a ML1 Psyker with access to great powers ohh and did I mention he comes STOCK with a 4++ save?


So those units you just said aren't that good would be considered auto-takes in almost every other codex. Sorry to burst your bubble, but except against Tau, Eldar, SM cheese you guys are OP as hell in almost every way.

-You mean a unit that has to fight at point-blank range (6'') to be effective all while being squishy as feth? A unit that is A1 S3 regularly and at best A2 S6 IF they charge? They also don't have fleet nor hit and run (ravenwing says hi) so their main utility is pray you killed them, which won't happen as they have too few attacks and body count. Oh did I mention that they can't use both profiles in a single turn so if they shot they are going to be gangraped if they (read: WILL) get charged?

-You think that for ALMOST the cost of a leman russ executioner you'd get more than one blast. Sure it doesnt overheat but you're paying 130pts for a plasma cannon that doesn't overheat, that's really point efficient, isn't it?.Sure the lance is penning on 4s. IF it hits. It takes 3 bloody rounds to achieve that thing you're saying it's so good about them. S5 is bad because it isn't enough to ID T3 models and has issues wounding T4 and above.

-It's not me being dense or lying it's you conflating things: they ARE tissue paper. If you think that AV12 AT BEST (and generally 10 in most vehicles) is strong go back to warhammer 101. Sacrificing all its offensive power to "maybe" survive those 6 immobilize results doesn't make them tougher, that just stalls their demise as they've been neutered. Where's that non-heating blasting going to sh- oh wait, yeah snapfiring, cannot shoot!

-you're paying 35 points for a T3 W1 model that has 1 shot at 12''. It has one shot at getting a power that does well for the circumstances. Shrouded is good... if you're already in cover which means the squad isn't firing at all so those 90pts ain't making their worth back too much.

And next time you speak about bursting someone's bubble go yourself with a jackhammer you arrogant

 Elbows wrote:
For friendly games, there is another shockingly simple answer: different point values. If, like most people your aim is to have a competitive, close-run game where either player can win...find a simple points ratio between your armies which let you comfortably do this. If you need to run 2250 Chaos vs. 1850 Eldar...do it. If you're not playing in a tournament, who cares. It's easier than list tailoring - the Eldar player gets to bring his/her favourite toys (as imbalanced as the game is I can imagine it's frustrating when an Eldar player spends a lot of time painting up Warp Spiders or a Wraithknight etc. and then never gets to field it because it's too powerful).

So, run unequal point values for three or four games until you find a suitable "match" and then play games at that level. It doesn't take anything away from the player with the weaker force. It's a silly fix, but worth considering.

I'll run this by her again, I tried it when we first started playing and it was a no go. But we did play 1000 point maelstrom game last night that I won, but her tactics were bad and she completely forgot about one of her units in cover lol, Only reason I won was because it was the six obj cards on turn one, which I was able to score 6 points turn one, due to a lucky D3 roll. Gonna be hard to convince her to let me have more points after that one, no matter how many times i've lost before that lol.

 Verviedi wrote:
This is what needs to happen more often. Open communication between people, not dakka advice posts.

If its friendly games, keep it friendly. Play scenarios. Not missions etc. but actual scenarios from stories / flights of fancy/old war scnearios. These missions do not have to be balanced in any way. One of my most enjoyable games was a game with wolves vs. Kroot. No weapons firing, and had to "leave the bodies" on the board. It looked like the remains from the first battle of Braveheart. In EPIC we did missions scenerios from WWII, titan wars (all superheavies all the time), everyone pile on the necron etc.

Alternatively just not-hey I am getting my but kicked consistently. Lets make it interesting and give me 300 extra points or such.