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Hi everyone!

Two somewhat linked Genestealer Cult fluff questions:

Is there any mention in the fluff of Purestrains having colouration different to the 'baseline' blue/purple?

What happens when two cults bump into each other, or a 'outside' Purestrain Genestealer ends up on a Cult world? It's in the fluff that Tyranids from different Hive Fleets will fight, but I don't think Cults have been mentioned.


I'm wondering if I can paint the Genestealers from 'The First Curse' Formation in different colours and still be fluffy...

The colour of the purestrain will match the colour scheme of the hive fleet it comes from, or a variety of the same colour's. Two cults from two Genestealers from different hive fleets would fight. The blue/purple scheme is a classic from RT1 and as such is loved by cult army owners.

kippax wrote:
The colour of the purestrain will match the colour scheme of the hive fleet it comes from, or a variety of the same colour's. Two cults from two Genestealers from different hive fleets would fight. The blue/purple scheme is a classic from RT1 and as such is loved by cult army owners.

Not quite right.

The codex actually mentions the reasons for the blue-purple scheme. It's a quirk of their biology when the Genestealers get too far from the Hive Fleet. Their entire metabolism changes and their priorities start to shift from Kill Kill Kill to Survive Survive Survive. As a result of their metabolism changing their colours change to the blue-purple as a whole.

I'm sure there's variants but the codex actually addresses this.

Don't forget, the traditional 'Tyranid' genestealers are mass produced and may only be scant few hours old. GSC Purestrains are often hundreds of years old and as a result more canny and survivable than their counterparts (thus the reasoning for being better overall).

Also, for someone who has the codex, does it mention any interactions with non human factions? Eldar, Orks, Tau and Necrons specifically.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
The codex actually mentions the reasons for the blue-purple scheme. It's a quirk of their biology when the Genestealers get too far from the Hive Fleet. Their entire metabolism changes and their priorities start to shift from Kill Kill Kill to Survive Survive Survive. As a result of their metabolism changing their colours change to the blue-purple as a whole.

I must have skipped that bit - where is it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chalkobob wrote:
Also, for someone who has the codex, does it mention any interactions with non human factions? Eldar, Orks, Tau and Necrons specifically.

Orks & Tau are mentioned.

beast_gts wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
The codex actually mentions the reasons for the blue-purple scheme. It's a quirk of their biology when the Genestealers get too far from the Hive Fleet. Their entire metabolism changes and their priorities start to shift from Kill Kill Kill to Survive Survive Survive. As a result of their metabolism changing their colours change to the blue-purple as a whole.

I must have skipped that bit - where is it?

The section where they describe the units (not the dataslate).

The Patriarch bit explains their metabolism and priorities changing - hence how a Patriarch comes to be.

The Purestrain Genestealer section details the coloration.

That's an astute reference. It's an interesting section. "Isolated broods...are typified by a blue-indigo coloration." So, typical of GW designers, open to interpretation. Goes on to say Hive Fleet genestealers bear that Hive Fleet's colors. And "if divorced" from the greater Hive Fleet isolated genestealers can "evolve" into purestrain form. "

Bottom line, as always, do what your please. You can always gin up your own completely plausible microbackground to explain the coloration of your purestrains and cult. They are recent spin off from the Hive Fleet. Like a chameleon, they adopted a camouflage, etc... Even if you aren't that all avant-garde, changing even one color (say, dark green instead of indigo) makes them unique.

How long does it take to form a cult that threatens a society? A year or two, 25 years or like 100?

usmcmidn wrote:
How long does it take to form a cult that threatens a society? A year or two, 25 years or like 100?

Depends on the society, but typically over five generations.

beast_gts wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:
How long does it take to form a cult that threatens a society? A year or two, 25 years or like 100?

Depends on the society, but typically over five generations.

Every 4 generations they have a major uprising, but that might not be enough to topple the planet/society. If the revolt/uprising/attack fails then the survivors go back into hiding

The Inquisition War novel (terrible book not worth reading tbh)

has an encounter with GSC early on with a Cladius Assassin Modified to be able to morph into a 2/3rd generation hybrid

She makes contact with the brood, they are wary because she isn't connected to their broodmind. She explains away that she was from another world where they were discovered and stowaway on a ship and ended up here, which they believe. The patriarch is keen to breed with her for the potential of adding her brood strength to his own

This would suggest that the Broodmind is unique to that particular Cult. But in the end all are overpowered by the Hivemind

GodDamUser wrote:
The Inquisition War novel (terrible book not worth reading tbh)

has an encounter with GSC early on with a Cladius Assassin Modified to be able to morph into a 2/3rd generation hybrid

She makes contact with the brood, they are wary because she isn't connected to their broodmind. She explains away that she was from another world where they were discovered and stowaway on a ship and ended up here, which they believe. The patriarch is keen to breed with her for the potential of adding her brood strength to his own

This would suggest that the Broodmind is unique to that particular Cult. But in the end all are overpowered by the Hivemind

This is what I referred to earlier - individual cults have their own telepathic network as it were. A cult can take in strays, perhaps those who were lone survivors of purges or massacres but the stray will never truly feel as though they belong with her.

The patriarch doesn't want to breed with her. More his dreams reveal that she's not what she claims to be - he dreams of the markings on her - which she passes off as birthmarks. And that gives her away, because the Genestealer traits override any of the host organism - so no birthmarks are possible.

Ah you are right...

I just remeber the first part of the book being good... but then it went to gak towards the end

I still have the original anthology - it's a gold mine for GSC fiction. Both the title story (Deathwing) and the story in question (The Alien Beast Within) give you a lot of insight into how a cult functions plus the old art is still great too.

The Inquisitor War trilogy and Space Marine were written by Ian Watson, back in the early days of GW. Watson was/is a successful Science Fiction writer. His books don't follow the 40K fluff exactly (though, they did invent some fluff), and they contain mature themes. Especially the wonderful, but slightly disturbing Space Marine, which has a homo-erotic undertone. So, not typical of more recent action-adventure Black Library books. For instance, if I recall, the female assassin from The Alien Beast Within is part of the Inquisitor's retinue, and is also his concubine. But, still very good writing, if not a bit odd at times. Certainly not everyone's cup of tea. I would agree the last Inquisitor War book feels like Watson's contract was expiring, and not being renewed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

usmcmidn wrote:
How long does it take to form a cult that threatens a society? A year or two, 25 years or like 100?

Depends on the size of the society, it's nature, and the extent of the cult's influence. For instance, in the Genestealer codex, Ghosar Quintus has a population of 15 million (incidentally, that cult was probably started by a genestealer that arrived there 1500 years before). In the Deathwatch: Overkill game, that Cult is destroyed by 13 DW marines. There is the usual hyperbolic mention of them fighting "thousands of hybrids." It don't seem likely they take on 15 million cultists. It would seem more likely only the isolated mining complex is fully infiltrated by the Cult. That's another consideration. How big does a cult need to be to attract the attention of an approaching Hive Fleet? The cult is driven to expand, but remain viable. And, it doesn't even know it is just a dupe of the Tyranids. If I recall, the cult in the Deathwing short story takes over, and turns one of the Dark Angel's tribal wolds into an industrial nightmare in the 100 years between the arrival of Dark Angel recruiters. Of course, it might have been there earlier.

I would suggest, taking into account a genestealer may lie dormant for decades, a full cult with 5 generations would require somewhere around 100 years. That might take over a small population. To take over even one hive on Necromunda with it's teeming billions would take centuries or millennia. There were rumors of an unrealized Necromunda supplement (Hive Secundus?) with a setting in a derelict hive taken over by a genestealer cult and then destroyed in the process of an Imperial purge.

Finally, to keep the timeline in context, Ghosar is "the first confirmed Imperial engagement with a Genestealer Cult." That engagement takes place 680.M41. So, fairly recent, and before the first Hive Fleet arrives.

usmcmidn wrote:
How long does it take to form a cult that threatens a society? A year or two, 25 years or like 100?

About generations: Since the genestealers alter the genetic material of their host species and encourage breeding, "one generation" might not be the equivalent of "one human generation" as our society thinks about it, (roughly 25 years´). It can probably be as little as 10 years if the maturation and adolesence of the hybrids are accelerated. So maybe as short as 40 years from first purestrain infection to the birth of a Magus. Then it is of course a matter of numbers and strategy.

Fun story: I GMed a long campaign in Dark Heresy where, at one point, the PCs raided a genestealer cults holdout. In the center of the underground complex there was a daycare center... The players actually looked rather bothered when I rolled the pitiful saving throws for the pillow fort...

Mellon wrote:
Fun story: I GMed a long campaign in Dark Heresy where, at one point, the PCs raided a genestealer cults holdout. In the center of the underground complex there was a daycare center... The players actually looked rather bothered when I rolled the pitiful saving throws for the pillow fort...

I laughed, then I was sad.

Upon further review, as I continue to read the new Genestealer Cult Codex, halfway through I stumble upon a few pages titled, "The Hidden Dynasties." A couple of pages outlining the course of a few different Cults. I guess because the FIRST engagement with a GSC (Ghosar Quintus) occurred only about 350 years before current time (And, that is probably because the first Tyranid invasion was even more recent), the timelines are starkly different than the typical hyperbolic number of years given various 40K events (the most egregious is the Necrons going into hibernation 65 million years ago!). I guess everything else related to the GSC is chronologically compressed. A recently infested planet can't take centuries to become a full blown GSC dominated world.

In one case given in the codex, a GSC infested world is purged. But, one 4th Gen. hybrid escapes and then later returns. In the time it takes for the Inquisitor who purged the world to die in service (so much less than one lifetime), the world is overrun again. A industrial world hive is overrun in one decade. On the other hand, it takes a century for a lone Genestealer survivor of a crashed freighter on a "frontier planet" to to sire a Cult that overruns the planet. I think the lesson is GSC's build moderately slowly (decades to century), but spread quickly.

 Gobbla wrote:
Upon further review, as I continue to read the new Genestealer Cult Codex, halfway through I stumble upon a few pages titled, "The Hidden Dynasties." A couple of pages outlining the course of a few different Cults. I guess because the FIRST engagement with a GSC (Ghosar Quintus) occurred only about 350 years before current time (And, that is probably because the first Tyranid invasion was even more recent), the timelines are starkly different than the typical hyperbolic number of years given various 40K events (the most egregious is the Necrons going into hibernation 65 million years ago!). I guess everything else related to the GSC is chronologically compressed. A recently infested planet can't take centuries to become a full blown GSC dominated world.

In one case given in the codex, a GSC infested world is purged. But, one 4th Gen. hybrid escapes and then later returns. In the time it takes for the Inquisitor who purged the world to die in service (so much less than one lifetime), the world is overrun again. A industrial world hive is overrun in one decade. On the other hand, it takes a century for a lone Genestealer survivor of a crashed freighter on a "frontier planet" to to sire a Cult that overruns the planet. I think the lesson is GSC's build moderately slowly (decades to century), but spread quickly.

Inquisitors typically have acecss to rejuvenation treatments. So lifespans of several hundred years is highly likely, and most of them are indeed killed in service. I still agree with your assessment, they grow slowly but spread quickly. If we assume hybrids can accellerate the host species maturation into puberty a bit, a generation per decade is possible. And as you say that's nothing in the scheme of the imperium.

I'm curisous as to how many imperial worlds are actually controlled by the Cult. Successful takeovers that happened long ago, maybe even before Ghosar Quintus. A clever Magus will install herself as planetary governor, and as long as the tithes are payed and a handful of (non hybrid)psykers are handed over to the black ships, the Imperium might never notice... I believe the backstory in Shield of Baal might be about a noble family of genestealer lineage.

Yeah, forgot about Inquisitor's possibility of artificial longevity. Still, by designating Ghosar as the Imperium's first encounter with a GSC, occurring about 350 years prior to the current time, it does compress a GSC growth cycle. I'm not sure why that choice was made. Tied to the Tyranids arrival, I suppose.

As for the duration of various hybrid generations, I have a noyion. Although I consider Alien the to be greatest Science Fiction movie of all time, with Aliens tied for second alongside Predator and Terminator (seriously, it makes Sophie's Choice look easy), the most serious plot hole has always been the literal overnight maturation from "Chest Burster" to full grown Alien. Increasing body mass 50 times overnight is inconsistent with the ret of the franchise's obsession with realism. Because our beloved Genestealers (and Tyranids, too) are such an *ahem* homage to the Alien genre, perhaps they mimic the manic maturing of the Aliens in the movies. Perhaps the more genestealer-ish the hybrid, the faster it matures, and the longer it lives.. It ain't like First Generation hybrids are gonna get into to the finest preschools, anyway.

usmcmidn wrote:How long does it take to form a cult that threatens a society? A year or two, 25 years or like 100?

Lets do some math!
Assume the following:
-1st and 2nd generation hybrids mature in 10 years, 3rd mature in 15 and 4th in 18 (due to increasing human influence)
-Purestrains and 1st and 2nd hybrids are functionally immortal. 3rd and 4th live until 100.
-1st and 2nd generation hybrids have ovipositors and infect people like purestrains. 3rd and 4th take human partners and hypnotise them, as if they were infected by a purestrain.
-1st and 2nd generation hybrids infect ONE person each.
-Purestrain-infected pairs have five children each- reasonable given that the females would likely be dedicated to having as many children as possible while the men try to infiltrate society.
-Only a single purestrain is born from the 4th generation, the other 4 are brood brothers.


First Cycle:
Yr 0: 1 Purestrain- infects 1 human.
Yr 10: Human finds 1 partner, they have 5 1st generation children. The 1sts infect 5 people. The infected take 5 partners and have 25 kids.
Yr 20: the 2nd generation hybrids infect 25 people. The infected take 25 partners and have 125 children.
Yr 35: The 3rds take 125 partners and have 625 4th generation hybrid children
Yr 53: The 4ths take 625 partners and have 625 Purestrains and 2500 brood-brothers.

So after the first cycle, we have:
1 Patriarch
5 1sts
25 2nds
125 3rds
625 4ths
625 Purestrains
3310 Brood-Brothers

About 5000 cult members isn't really enough to take over more than a small city unfortunately, but what about the next cycle?

Second Cycle:
Yr 63: 625 Purestrains infect 625 people who take 625 partners. They have 3125 1sts
Yr 73: The 1sts infect 3125 people, who take 3125 partners. They have 15'625 2nd generation hybrids.
Yr 83: The 2nds infect 15'625 people, who take 15'625 partners. They have 78'125 3rds.
Yr 98: The 3rds take 78'125 partners, and have 390'625 4ths
Yr 116: The 4ths take 390'625 partners, and they have 390'625 Purestrains and 1'562'500 Brood Brothers

Now, we have:
1 Purestrain
3130 1sts
15'650 2nds
78'250 3rds
391'250 4ths
391'250 Purestrains
2'054'000 Brood-Brothers

Much better, 2 and a half million cultists is enough to cause quite a bit of chaos and disruption, depending on how well they have managed to infiltrate.
Weirdly though this doesn't correspond with the GW claim that 1st and 2nd generation hybrids are the bulk of the cult's forces, but the way that the cult exponentially increases further down the chain belies this. UNLESS, the Cult times its uprisings to happen just after the 2nd generation of hybrids in a cycle matures.

Third Cycle:
Yr 126: The Purestrains infect 391'250 people, who take 391'250 partners. They have 1'956'250 1sts
Yr 136: The 1sts infect 1'956'250 people, who take 1'956'250 partners and have 9'781'250 2nd generation hybrids
Yr 146: The 2nds mature, and the Cult revolts

If this happens, then the Cult has:
1 Patriarch
1'959'250 1sts
9'796'900 2nds
78'250 3rds
391'250 4ths
391'250 Purestrains
4'749'000 Brood-Brothers

So now the Cult has a good 15 million members, the bulk of whom are powerful hybrids, with millions of Brood-Brother who have infiltrated society and the military at every level.

So perhaps, after 150 years and two and a half cycles, the Cult is ready for a powerful and devastating uprising, although of course it depends on how many people are on the planet and how strong its military is.

Gobbla wrote:Yeah, forgot about Inquisitor's possibility of artificial longevity. Still, by designating Ghosar as the Imperium's first encounter with a GSC, occurring about 350 years prior to the current time, it does compress a GSC growth cycle. I'm not sure why that choice was made. Tied to the Tyranids arrival, I suppose.

As for the duration of various hybrid generations, I have a noyion. Although I consider Alien the to be greatest Science Fiction movie of all time, with Aliens tied for second alongside Predator and Terminator (seriously, it makes Sophie's Choice look easy), the most serious plot hole has always been the literal overnight maturation from "Chest Burster" to full grown Alien. Increasing body mass 50 times overnight is inconsistent with the ret of the franchise's obsession with realism. Because our beloved Genestealers (and Tyranids, too) are such an *ahem* homage to the Alien genre, perhaps they mimic the manic maturing of the Aliens in the movies. Perhaps the more genestealer-ish the hybrid, the faster it matures, and the longer it lives.. It ain't like First Generation hybrids are gonna get into to the finest preschools, anyway.

The maturation of the Alien is absurdly quick, but it isn't literally overnight- an indeterminate amount of time could have passed on the Nostromo between the time the 'burster escapes and they find the creature.

The problem with that calc is that a Purestrain isn't going to infect only one human, but far more people (the same applies to hybrids with ovipositor), so the first cycle should be far larger. Also the larger the cult, the easier it will be to infect new members.

Also the Cult doesn't needs to military take the planet, simply infecting the ruling class would give them control over the planet.

True, but the problem is that it is a theoretically limitless number of infections from the pure strains and hybrids. Do they infect someone new each night, or once a year? Whenever they can? Its impossible to calculate.

Regardless, I'd posit that however many people get infected (which would largely depend on the world itself I think) we wint see truly grand numbers until the third cycle.

And yes, they only need to infect the rulers, but the issue of that that is difficult to do. How do you get a prominent noble alone with a hybrid? Hoe do you keep their mutant offspring a secret? Its hard. So the cult needs to be careful- infecting influential people while not aiming too high to be discovered quickly.
Plus, most human cultists would be aiming to rise in the ranks, and joining the military. The ultimate goal before the uprising is to get the military (or large chunks at least) on-side.

Blackhoof, that's a fascinating breakdown. Actually working out the numbers gives an interesting perspective. NOT quibbling over numbers ('cause, your's look solid with reasonable assumptions), it's fun to wonder about the efficacy of the proposal in general.

After 50 years, 5000 members seems, like a lot. For a cult that must remain absolutely covert in it's early, weaker stages. Also, imagine housing and feeding and hiding 650 members that cannot be seen in public (1st, 2nd, and Purestrains) . That's one out of seven. I speculate that at it's most vulnerable stages, with limited influence, the cult would not want or need so many Purestrains. Unless it was in a rather small, isolated society (a mining colony?). Even though the numbers support the possibility, the cult may not expand with such reckless abandon early on.

At 100 years (your second cycle), it would seem 2 1/2 million members would be impossible to conceal. If the cult grew slower on purpose during the first Cycle, this number would be lower. And, yes, in that case, with 3rd and 4th Gens. making up more of the bulk of the cult. With less burden of finding gainful employment of 400,000 Purestrains. Much less keeping them out of sight. "Can I take your order? Yes, two Combo meals, two Happy Meals, and 650,000 pounds of raw meat." I think the Purestrain numbers in your model work out numerically if the cult just procreates. I don't know that they work out practically. Seems like half a million Purestrains boiling up from the Underhive, or Hinterlands would most likely topple any unsuspecting society. Also seems like there would be a tipping point where the cult HAS to up-rise and overcome, because it is too big to conceal, and too powerful to fail.

At 150 years, and 15 million covert members, we've reached the "Brexit" stage. If the power-that-be are not aware of the changes in "attitude" of the people beneath them, they are spectacularly uninformed. .

Thanks Gobbla.
Very good points there.

It entirely depends on the sort of world they are infiltrating.

I can imagine that on Hive Worlds, with many, many billions of inhabitants, and large areas of hives and underhives that are completely out of reach of the authorities, it would be quite easy to hide large numbers of cult members. The cult could easily take over large sections of the underhive posing as gangers without the authorities really noticing or caring. Once an area is secure, the purestrains and 1sts and 2nds can hide there.

On other worlds, of course, that is more difficult. Impossible on a world anything like modern earth.

Alternatively, I can imagine the cult using old warehouses and such, and splitting up the "unseeables" into various hideouts across the city and planet. Easy if you infect the right nobles, merchants, guilders or military commanders. You could hide them in small groups, protected by brood brothers or 3rds or 4ths, in abandoned, low-traffic or poverty-stricken areas. An apartment building filled with weird, shifty-eyed people that consumes too much food and tends to disappear anyone who gets too curious would go unnoticed by the authorities on many worlds.

It seems to me that the most logical thing for a cult to do- if it can't hide too many purestrains and 1sts and 2nds- is to max out on 3rds and 4ths, that can move around society and infiltrate the military and government. This is the cult's greatest asset- an army can easily be crippled if key commanders are on the cult's side and mess up orders and commands, or just refuse to act. Or claim that the loyalists are the cult members and start a friendly-fire situation.


"At 150 years, and 15 million covert members, we've reached the "Brexit" stage. If the power-that-be are not aware of the changes in "attitude" of the people beneath them, they are spectacularly uninformed. ."

well, everything we have seen about the Imperium shows us that the powers-that-be couldn't be more uninformed about the worlds beneath them XD

The cult could also choose to rise up (if it wants the bulk of its members to be 1sts and 2nds) halfway through the 2nd cycle, instead of halfway through the 3rd.

So:
Now, we have:
1 Purestrain
3130 1sts
15'650 2nds
125 3rds
625 4ths
625 Purestrains
3310 Brood-Brothers

not a bad force, but not enough to take over any planets.

and as you said, the specific numbers aren't too important- the cult will adjust its growth based on its circumstances.