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2016/10/12 05:19:12
Subject: Old player from 5th question about State of game/Guard
Curious as to what changes are now current for IG in 7th and any major changes besides the formation/apocalypse vehicles in current 7th edition vs 5th edition?
Also any quick summaries or links for a overview to changes for each armor or aspect of the game would be great!
Just wanna see if it's worth jumping in or waiting till 8th and hoping GW fixes this sh_$ show
2016/10/12 05:23:07
Subject: Old player from 5th question about State of game/Guard
Guard are relatively the same! Blobs pf mobs and lots of tanks!
The bad news
Vehicles suck pickles now in 7th due to hull points allowing tanks and what not the be glanced down to death.
Your AV 14 front armor will be ok, but anything 12 and under, your gonna be clutching your bum.
Basically this, except often even the AV14 stuff is hideously vulnerable because of increasingly widespread use of powerful weapons and abilities that ignore AV altogether.
7E is a gigantic mess in every conceivable sense (balance is worse than it has ever been, cost has skyrocketed, and the rules are spread across a bewildering array of sources that all have to be purchased separately through up to 4 different sales channels), and Imperial Guard (on top of getting a terrible renaming job) are near the bottom of the dungheap. I would not recommend getting into the game until really it has a full reboot and checking back in.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2016/10/12 05:58:28
Subject: Old player from 5th question about State of game/Guard
Ethernal war missions are sort of like the 5th edition.
There is a thing called "mealstorm" These missions will give you random objectives each turn, that replenish once you get them. Like grab that objective at the other side of the table, and guess what eldar jetbikes are troops now...
Inactive, user. New profile might pop up in a while
2016/10/12 06:44:55
Subject: Old player from 5th question about State of game/Guard
It's ok. Guards can still do things with their common 5-th lists but with some tweaks. Like changing the lrbt for some other variant, using formations like emp's wrath for artillery (all the same models - just not regular cad but formations), Get yourself a wivern - best infantry killer ever (can be easilly made out of any chimera chasis and some rokkit pod or mortar parts).
Power weapons have different profiles now, so if you were using power swords on your sarges, go for power axes instead. Power swords are s: user, ap3 and axes are s: +1 ap2 unwieldy.
Priests, comissars and things like this are a must and can be taken in good enough numbers - invaluable for your platoons.
Guards have 2 main problems.
1-st is that 7-th has introduced maelstorm missions oriented towards board controle a lot - 3/4 missions are about scoring one or multiple of 6 objective markers. So, you'll either need mobility and toughness to drive by the objective and claim it or you'll need to controle midboard. It's all relatively doable but your old mono gunlines are no longer viable. You'll have to mix in some new elements.
The 2-d problem is that you'll have difficulties dealing with monsters and choppy deathstars and, boy, there are a number of them. So, you'll have to play smart and try to lure them into tarpits while you score the board. Or use allies with grav or cullexus assassin to remove magic buffs from the deathstars and than wreck them with your superior artillery and volleys of lazgun fire.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/12 06:47:38
2016/10/12 12:30:02
Subject: Re:Old player from 5th question about State of game/Guard
I recently used the Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company formation (with squad of 2 Basilisks, 1 Wyvern, 1 Manticore). With the vox Twin-Linking special rule (a friendly unit with a vox caster can target an enemy unit within 18 inches, and all units from this formation firing on that unity are twin-linked), I was wrecking things. Along with the Ignores Cover rule from my Company Commander, I had 2 twin-linked, ignores cover, Strength 9, AP 3 blasts. I also took the relic that orders to units within 6 inches only fail on double-6's.
The formation was super-deadly, and not too expensive (relatively speaking).
2016/10/12 13:27:20
Subject: Re:Old player from 5th question about State of game/Guard
The short, short version: Get out there and try a game!
The short version: Imperial Guard are now called Astra Militarum so that GW can hold a trademark on the name. Fundamentally they are the same force; tanks supported by infantry. Just as before, the Imperial Guard are vulnerable to just about every special rule in the game, which means that they're a lot of fun for your opponents to fight, because all your opponent's bells and whistles function. The Imperial Guard can still lay down some of the greatest number of ordnance and pie plates in the game. Vehicles have hull points now, and glancing hits only reduce their hull points instead of dealing any debuffs to vehicles, so it's the most common way of beating tanks. Good news is that the current meta allows the AV14 of a Leman Russ to be more effective now than ever. Bad news, most armies have an insane amount of access to ultra-killy items, meaning that it will feel like your vehicles are more vulnerable than ever. Overall, the best use for Guard right now may be to proxy as a Genestealer Cult, since the Cult gets access to all the "basic" Guard items of men and tanks, none of the more advanced stuff (veterans, hellhounds, valkyries, orders, etc), but they're able to feel more like a swarm army of guardsmen than literal guardsmen.
Spoiler:
The long version: Welcome back!
A lot has changed since 5th edition, but the core of the game remains the same. The biggest changes system-wide are the way vehicles work, the way psychic powers work, and the "force organization chart" for putting together your army.
Vehicles are both more AND less resilient than they were in the past. If weapons in the game had stayed the same power as before, vehicles would definitely be tougher now than ever before. Vehicles now have Hull Points (HP), meaning that if you keep scoring glancing or penetrating hits on them, you'll destroy them. Remember how you could destroy a vehicle by getting enough Weapon Destroyed and Immobilized results? Same idea, but most vehicles have 3 HP, and some have 4 HP. Glancing Hits don't even roll on a table any longer, they just deal a HP of damage. Also, you need to roll a SEVEN on the penetrating hit table to destroy a vehicle - meaning only AP1 and AP2 weapons, or Open Topped Vehicles, are actually vulnerable to Penetrating Hits. Generally, since Penetrating Hits are so less effective, and glancing hits generally so much more effective, this has turned the game's environment towards high strength, low ap weapons with a hate rate of fire. Autocannons are a solid pick now, but a Multi-laser is almost as good!
Another contributing factor towards this weapon-shift has been the introduction of Snap Shots. Generally speaking, for every time you couldn't fire a weapon in 5th edition, now you can fire a "snap shot". These are always (except for special circumstances) done at BS1, and nothing with a flamer template or blast can be snap shot. Since the BS of these shots is so low, having lots of shots is even better, hence why a Multi-Laser might often be better than a Lascannon.
The next big change are psychic powers. Guard have never really been a major psychic army, so I'll just gloss over this. Now you have a Psychic Phase between moving and shooting, and psykers have Mastery Levels. You can cast up to 1 power for each Mastery Level you have, and each power costs "Warp Charge". Leadership checks will only reduce the severity of some of the Perils results. It's sort of a mini-game, but you'll find that you go from "terribly ineffective" to "broken" in a heartbeat. You will have no chance of beating the psychic-heavy armies, so this has lead to a somewhat "all or nothing" approach to the amount of psychic powers being tossed around.
The last big change is how armies are organized. Remember how you used to adhere to 1 HQ and 2 Troops as your "Force Organization Chart", and you only had double-force-org's at really high point games? Well, that's pretty much gone. Each "force org" is now called a "detachment", and generally speaking, your army can be made of any number of detachments! The classic "1 HQ and 2 Troops, plus up to 4 more Troops, 1 more HQ, and up to 3 each of Fast Attack, Elites, and Heavy Support" is called a "Combined Arms Detachment" (or CAD for short). But there's a whole SLEW of other kinds of detachments that have nothing to do with 1 HQ and 2 Troops! Some of these other detachments, like the Harlequin Masque Detachment, have a different set of requirements (this particular one was 3 Troops, 2 Fast Attack, and 1 Heavy Support minimum, then an optional 6 Elites). Others are called "formations", which have nothing to do with unit's classification of Heavy Support or whatnot; the formation just lists which units to take, which are optional, and when you have them you have a whole detachment. Some of these are tiny too! There's a formation for Space Marines that's only composed of 3 Librarians. If it was a small enough game, you could just take 3 Librarians in this formation and it'd be a totally legal list, and those Librarians are super-charged because formations almost always give the units in them extra abilities. Some things, like the Necron Decurion, function similarly to a "formation of formations", meaning that it's a big detachment that requires you to fill certain parts of it with formations, and then every unit in the detachment gets bonuses ON TOP of its formation bonuses! It'd be safe to say that most gaming groups have completed the transition to "formation-hammer" and that encountering the classic 1 HQ and 2 Troop CAD build is more of a rarity than the expected.
Also changed are what's allowed to be used in a game. We now have Flyers that soar so high above the battlefield that only special weapons with Sky Fire and other Flyers can shoot at them without it being Snap Shots, and Super Heavy vehicles and Gargantuan Creatures like Titans are common sights on the battlefield. While I wouldn't say to expect an Emperor Class titan, things like Wraithknights, Imperial Knights, Ork Gargants, Baneblades, and other things on the "lower end" of the Super Heavy spectrum are more common than you'd expect.
Generally speaking, unless you have a good chat with your opponent beforehand, "competitive Apocalypse" is considered by GW to be the default game.
However, every game group has a different set of expectations. My suggestion would be to explore a bit, see what your community is like. It could be the hyper-competitive crowd (and if you get tabled in 2 turns, that's likely the crowd you're in), but even then there'll be some corner of the community that perhaps organizes online which prefers the more traditional games that you're likely accustomed to. Good luck!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/12 13:27:58
Galef wrote: If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
2016/10/12 13:28:40
Subject: Old player from 5th question about State of game/Guard
Before I forget it get yourself a few Whyverens or use some of your old tannks as count as. These things are now your main anti infantry artillery tanks.
Inactive, user. New profile might pop up in a while
2016/10/12 19:09:07
Subject: Old player from 5th question about State of game/Guard
Good thing since I starting toying with Wyvern before they were cool then haha.
I have a decent amount of Krieg yet to build except some hades breaching drills and engineers.
As well as all my cadian/tank stuff.
Some other questions what does ITC mean for tournaments? I am a tournament player usually and like to play for 'all-comers' list instead of super cheese.
2016/10/12 19:12:33
Subject: Old player from 5th question about State of game/Guard
ITC means Independent Tournament Circuit and it's basically a separate ruleset of missions written by the guys at Frontline Gaming. It basically combines Eternal War and Maelstrom missions together and has you score points for them separately. Hypothetically, it's designed to balance out how Eternal War naturally favors gunlines and deathstars while Maelstrom favors MSU and fast armies. Has it worked? Well...
2016/10/12 19:25:45
Subject: Old player from 5th question about State of game/Guard
shank911 wrote: Curious as to what changes are now current for IG in 7th and any major changes besides the formation/apocalypse vehicles in current 7th edition vs 5th edition?
GW says you can play your old Codex. You should do so. First, it'll save you a bunch of money. Second, your army won't be downgraded with worse stuff.
The problem is that the 6E and 7E rules are a fething disaster.
Honestly, you'll probably do better going from 5E to 8E, and skipping the current gakshow.
shank911 wrote: Curious as to what changes are now current for IG in 7th and any major changes besides the formation/apocalypse vehicles in current 7th edition vs 5th edition?
Also any quick summaries or links for a overview to changes for each armor or aspect of the game would be great!
Just wanna see if it's worth jumping in or waiting till 8th and hoping GW fixes this sh_$ show
Costs are relatively the same, for example vets went down 10pts by making krak grenades optional but then chimeras went up 10 and lost 3 fire points. Most rules and models are the same, very few real tweaks as far as the army itself is concerned.
I will warn you IG in it's current state really doesn't like 7th. D weapons are widespread, as is ignore cover and grav weapons (bane of vehicles) as well as things like superheavies and GMC's making the majority of your infantry weapons useless. Basically imagine if some idiot decided to make regular 40k games have apocalypse rules and units. This is 7th ed verbatim.
I will say Kill Team is a lot of fun, as are smaller points games, as at that point IG can bring so much stuff that the power difference doesn't matter as much, but if you're a tournament player you're in for a bad time without serious ally abuse.
Trying to do a full codex summary is pointless, many weapons and units didn't change at all price wise, with only a couple key exceptions like the vendetta losing transport slots and getting more expensive, priests getting cheaper and being much better, and the orders system being given a lot of new orders that weren't around before. None of which really have a huge impact on how "competitive" the army is.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
2016/10/12 20:27:06
Subject: Old player from 5th question about State of game/Guard
shank911 wrote: Good thing since I starting toying with Wyvern before they were cool then haha.
I have a decent amount of Krieg yet to build except some hades breaching drills and engineers.
As well as all my cadian/tank stuff.
Some other questions what does ITC mean for tournaments? I am a tournament player usually and like to play for 'all-comers' list instead of super cheese.
ITC is, as stated above, is a tournament circuit that's separate from Games Workshop.
If you're a tourney player at heart, the Guard will not perform to satisfaction. Competitive 40k has pretty much completely moved away from the game you knew. It's dominated by the most broken of broken things, and the Guard just can't break the game enough to really get in there.
Galef wrote: If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
2016/10/12 20:48:27
Subject: Old player from 5th question about State of game/Guard
Yeah, stuff that was literally purely the realm of 4chan internet hyperbole in 5th, like 2++ rerollable invul saves and infantry armed with D weapons, is now commonly and widely seen.
The current IG codex came out at the end of 6th, just like 7 or 8 weeks before 7th was released. It basically just cut out most of the characters as well as the vehicles and infantry that didnt have plastic kits, made some Russ tanks cheaper, added a largrly pointless new transport, upped the pricing on the other exisitng transports and command squads (making platoons extremely expensive), unnecessarily nerfed the everloving gak out of the Hydra, and added the Wyvern along with renaming Stormtroopers to Tempestus Scions and making them available in Platoons in Elites slots.
Coupled with HP's dramatically cutting vehicle survivability and the ever increasing capabilities of other armies, IG are a bottom tier (though not quite bottom of the bottom) army that are difficult to have fun with.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2016/10/12 20:57:38
Subject: Old player from 5th question about State of game/Guard
Jetbikes were troops in the 5th and 6th edition books as well. This is not a new thing. They've just been given additional heavy weapon options and the ability to equip them on ALL of the bikes in the squad instead of every third bike.
Coupled with HP's dramatically cutting vehicle survivability and the ever increasing capabilities of other armies, IG are a bottom tier (though not quite bottom of the bottom) army that are difficult to have fun with.
Other Russes got more expensive. The one key change for the Russes from 5E is Lumbering Behemoth. Or lack thereof.
Vaktathi wrote: Yeah, stuff that was literally purely the realm of 4chan internet hyperbole in 5th, like 2++ rerollable invul saves and infantry armed with D weapons, is now commonly and widely seen.
The current IG codex came out at the end of 6th, just like 7 or 8 weeks before 7th was released. It basically just cut out most of the characters as well as the vehicles and infantry that didnt have plastic kits, made some Russ tanks cheaper, added a largrly pointless new transport, upped the pricing on the other exisitng transports and command squads (making platoons extremely expensive), unnecessarily nerfed the everloving gak out of the Hydra, and added the Wyvern along with renaming Stormtroopers to Tempestus Scions and making them available in Platoons in Elites slots.
Coupled with HP's dramatically cutting vehicle survivability and the ever increasing capabilities of other armies, IG are a bottom tier (though not quite bottom of the bottom) army that are difficult to have fun with.
^This. I'd sum up the current IG codex like this:
Removed half the special characters from the army.
Removed infantry options for the army.
Increased the point costs or nerfed units that absolutely did not need it (Chimera/Hydra/Ogryn).
Ignored 90% of the codex that desperately needed points reduction.
Did not improve orders which desperately need an overhaul/buff/rework.
Did not address the units in the codex that desperately need buff (Rough riders/Ogryn/Heavy weapons teams).
Did not reintroduce regimental unique benefits despite every guard player asking for it since they removed it.
Unlike most armies, no LoW option exists in codex. Have to purchase escalation book.
Troop choices largely continue to serve as a tax on the army or tarpit for the enemy. Lasgun volleys even in mass mean almost nothing vs units with 2+ saves +FNP + reanimation protocol and other nonsense.
Added new units to the codex who's point cost comes in well below similar existing units which serve similar function in order to force you to purchase them.
Lastly vox caster still does not have range of present day walky talky, yet the setting is in the 41st millennium.
I miss anything?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/10/13 06:08:50
2016/10/13 06:11:46
Subject: Old player from 5th question about State of game/Guard
Well, list them! Not so many, actuall, but in the 5th ---> 6th switch I appreciated:
- Grenadier doctrine reduced in cost - Wyvern - Some Russ had the point cost reduced (but people already explained why Russes have been illogically hit hard). - Ratlings can shoot and move! They are literally eldars (stop throwing vegetables at me).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/13 08:43:00
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
2016/10/13 09:01:39
Subject: Old player from 5th question about State of game/Guard
- Priests and comissars are slotless and 0-3 of each per detachment. You can have your whole army fearless or stubborn ld9 for cheapo.
- Psykana - tournament level of cheeze. Get your own daemon factory that's more efficient than any other daemon factory in the game.
- Conscripts got even cheaper and you can now attach priests and comissars to them. Means you get a 51-strong Fearless blob for 175 pts. Grots cry in the corner.
- Emp's wrath - get orders for your artillery. Orders that only fail on 6-6 to boot thanks to a relic.
- Masters of ordnance are now dirt cheap.
- Yarikk got orders.
- Allies open up endless possibilities to cover up your weaknesses.
And as mentioned above by every 2-d poster.
- WIVERNS. One of the best <t6 removers in the game.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/10/13 09:05:16
2016/10/13 09:10:33
Subject: Old player from 5th question about State of game/Guard
koooaei wrote: - Priests and comissars are slotless and 0-3 of each per detachment. You can have your whole army fearless or stubborn ld9 for cheapo. - Psykana - tournament level of cheeze. Get your own daemon factory that's more efficient than any other daemon factory in the game. - Conscripts got even cheaper and you can now attach priests and comissars to them. Means you get a 51-strong Fearless blob for 175 pts. Grots cry in the corner. - Emp's wrath - get orders for your artillery. Orders that only fail on 6-6 to boot thanks to a relic. - Masters of ordnance are now dirt cheap. - Yarikk got orders. - Allies open up endless possibilities to cover up your weaknesses.
And as mentioned above by every 2-d poster. - WIVERNS. One of the best <t8 removers in the game.>
I really hope Emp Wrath becomes the standard for guard! Orders, orders everywhere
Watch out: you get one commissar for CCS or PCS, they are selected in a slightly different way compared to other 0-3 specialists in HQ. Still, you generally want them in blobs, and if you blob you want and get those units. So, no big deal.
Master of ordnance in 6th edition codex is blind, deaf and probably brain damaged. Is an amateur of ordnance!
One question, I am away from books now: why attach a Commissar when you have a priest? You cannot go to ground with a priest? If so, is nice to have the tactical choice with a riskier commissar.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/13 09:10:56
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
2016/10/13 09:16:07
Subject: Old player from 5th question about State of game/Guard
ld9 vs ld7 for orders when you attach a comissar. LD issues are unnoticeable as he can just execute a model for auto-pass. Can go to ground when needed. Yep, priest makes your dudes choppier with zealot and 50/50 to get re-rolls to-wound or tankier with a 50/50 to get 5+ re-rollable armor in melee. Priests also have 4++. But ld9 for orders and ability to g2g is not to be underestimated.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/13 09:17:00
2016/10/13 09:18:24
Subject: Old player from 5th question about State of game/Guard
koooaei wrote: ld9 vs ld7 for orders when you attach a comissar. LD issues are unnoticeable as he can just execute a model for auto-pass. Can go to ground when needed. Yep, priest makes your dudes choppier with zealot and 50/50 to get re-rolls to-wound or tankier with a 50/50 to get 5+ re-rollable armor in melee. Priests also have 4++. But ld9 for orders and ability to g2g is not to be underestimated.
In this case they did a great job. This is an example of rules well written (not the codex as a whole, but this specific instance): the two choices have a meaning and there are not "no brainers".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/13 11:41:10
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
2016/10/13 10:09:05
Subject: Old player from 5th question about State of game/Guard
15K White Scars Brotherhood of the Twin Wolves (30K)
6K Imperial Fists 35th Cohort (30K)
7K Thousand Sons Guard of the Crimson King (30K)
3K Talons of the Emperor (30K)
2K Mechanicum Legio Cybernetica (30K)
1K Titans of Legio Astorum
3K Knights of House Cadmus (30K)
12K Cadian/Catachan/Tallarn/ST Battlegroup "Misericorde" (40K)
1K Inquisitorial Task Force "Hoffer" (40K)
2K Silver Wardens (UM Successors) 4th Company "The Avenged" (40K)
10K Empire of Man Nuln Expeditionary Force (WFB)
5K Vampire Counts (WFB)
2016/10/13 14:02:32
Subject: Old player from 5th question about State of game/Guard
koooaei wrote: - Priests and comissars are slotless and 0-3 of each per detachment. You can have your whole army fearless or stubborn ld9 for cheapo.
- Psykana - tournament level of cheeze. Get your own daemon factory that's more efficient than any other daemon factory in the game.
- Conscripts got even cheaper and you can now attach priests and comissars to them. Means you get a 51-strong Fearless blob for 175 pts. Grots cry in the corner.
- Emp's wrath - get orders for your artillery. Orders that only fail on 6-6 to boot thanks to a relic.
- Masters of ordnance are now dirt cheap.
- Yarikk got orders.
- Allies open up endless possibilities to cover up your weaknesses.
And as mentioned above by every 2-d poster.
- WIVERNS. One of the best <t6 removers in the game.
I'd hardly call everyone else "2d posters". Most of those would have been nice in casual 5E games but don't actually mean much, most are very tiny diamonds indeed amongst a very large lump of coal, stuff like cheaper master of ordnance or Yarrick getting orders doesn't mean much of anything as these aren't spectacular units that see tons of use to begin with. I'm not sure how Conscripts got cheaper, they were 4ppm in 5E and the current book if I'm not mistaken, except the minimum platoon needed to unlock them is more expensive thanks to the platoon command squad price increase. Allies work much better for other armies than for IG (particularly SM's) and, by definition, means bringing fewer IG units. Aside from that, pretty much only the formations have a meaningful impact on capability, and they require purchasing yet another book to use. Sure you can use a Psykana to pump out Daemons, but IG don't really make a good Daemonfactory army as a whole, and such a build is both highly contrary to the fluff and contrary to the what most people got into IG for in the first place.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/13 14:05:26
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2016/10/13 14:08:18
Subject: Old player from 5th question about State of game/Guard
Conscripts got a 25% point reduction without any nerfs. They're one of the most point-effecient swarms in the game right now. Not once have they saved me against 'cheezy' superheavy walkers and won me scoring games.
2016/10/13 14:15:32
Subject: Old player from 5th question about State of game/Guard
Vaktathi wrote: Sure you can use a Psykana to pump out Daemons, but IG don't really make a good Daemonfactory army as a whole, and such a build is both highly contrary to the fluff and contrary to the what most people got into IG for in the first place.
yes, this embitters me.
There is another thread, a guy asking which units can be added to a certain IG list, the answer is "space marines and assassins".
People answer for his good, but still..
"Ah, now eventually you do plan to have Imperial Guard in an Imperial Guard army, Mr. Hammond?"
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/10/13 14:16:32
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
2016/10/13 14:23:20
Subject: Old player from 5th question about State of game/Guard
IG aren't a cutthroat-tourney-winning army but they have a lot of good things there. Best swarms in the game - orks are nowhere near as good as 3 ppm fearless conscripts with 5+ armor. Strong artillery. Hard to deny the effectiveness of emp's wrath and wiverns. Superheavy tanks that are good but not broken. Like a hammer-something with an apoc s10 ignore cover blast. It's good. But it's not gona win you games on it's own. A lot of variety. You can go platoons, you can go mech vets (not as strong but still functional), you can go massed tanks (more rock-paper-scissors but it balances out with just 1 platoon for bauble wrap). You can go for air cav which is not bad in non-maelstorm games.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/13 14:26:37
2016/10/13 15:12:14
Subject: Old player from 5th question about State of game/Guard
koooaei wrote: - Priests and comissars are slotless and 0-3 of each per detachment. You can have your whole army fearless or stubborn ld9 for cheapo.
- Psykana - tournament level of cheeze. Get your own daemon factory that's more efficient than any other daemon factory in the game.
- Conscripts got even cheaper and you can now attach priests and comissars to them. Means you get a 51-strong Fearless blob for 175 pts. Grots cry in the corner.
- Emp's wrath - get orders for your artillery. Orders that only fail on 6-6 to boot thanks to a relic.
- Masters of ordnance are now dirt cheap.
- Yarikk got orders.
- Allies open up endless possibilities to cover up your weaknesses.
And as mentioned above by every 2-d poster.
- WIVERNS. One of the best <t6 removers in the game.
I'd hardly call everyone else "2d posters". Most of those would have been nice in casual 5E games but don't actually mean much, most are very tiny diamonds indeed amongst a very large lump of coal, stuff like cheaper master of ordnance or Yarrick getting orders doesn't mean much of anything as these aren't spectacular units that see tons of use to begin with. I'm not sure how Conscripts got cheaper, they were 4ppm in 5E and the current book if I'm not mistaken, except the minimum platoon needed to unlock them is more expensive thanks to the platoon command squad price increase. Allies work much better for other armies than for IG (particularly SM's) and, by definition, means bringing fewer IG units. Aside from that, pretty much only the formations have a meaningful impact on capability, and they require purchasing yet another book to use. Sure you can use a Psykana to pump out Daemons, but IG don't really make a good Daemonfactory army as a whole, and such a build is both highly contrary to the fluff and contrary to the what most people got into IG for in the first place.
Don't know where you're getting this whole "platoon command cost more" nonsense. They're still 30pts for a PCS, just like they were in 5th.
You're thinking of COMPANY command teams, which increased in cost by 10 for some asinine reason.
Also, conscripts are 3pts a piece now. That is not an unsignificant change and to be honest if you're going to run infantry those guys plus a priest/commissar is one of the best options you're going to get. Now granted this just means they tend to do more work than 2 infantry squads would for cheaper, but it's a relevant point. They make a strong tarpit that can harass enemy infantry and generally get in their way.
This of course is by no means stating that the new codex is OP or anything, just that out of all the things the book "fixed", it was pretty much just conscripts and priests. Commissars function more closely to how they do in the background, and vets can be taken far more cheaply now (which is a huge boon for kill team but doesn't make a huge impact in vanilla) and there were other small buffs like Armored sentinels getting a pretty good discount. We also got really odd things, like our power weapons costing more now, random things like chimeras going up in price and losing fire points (which if we still had 5th's vehicle damage would make sense, but was completely unnecessary this edition) and general random changes that had no real logic to them that I could see. It was like they told someone to just tweak it enough that old players couldn't get away with their 5th ed codexes anymore, not to balance the Guard out any or add variety. And even in that respect they did a pretty lousy job. For example, the platoon entry is UNCHANGED except for the fact that conscripts cost 3 ppm now. That's it. Veterans changed a bit by making krak grenades optional, option for a Heavy Flamer, and cheaper grenadiers, that's it. Vehicles gained a couple more equipment options, the Taurox was just as much of an abomination ruleswise as it looks, and the Wyvern not only managed to be hideously broken but remove all the other unique artillery variants the codex had because we can't have anything that lacks a model anymore.
I will say this, while the IG has a rough time in Vanilla 40k, it is much stronger in Kill Team. We can bring more vehicles, weapons, or bodies than just about any other army in the system. All three styles have viable merits to them and so Kill Team is nice in that unlike full scale, I feel like I have a lot of options and can make whatever I want to run work. I wanna run a horde with decent firepower? I bring a platoon chock full of autocannons and meltas. I want to bring armor, I bring a vet squad and a chimera loaded for bear. I want vets, I can bring 20 carapace armored vets with an autocannon, a couple plasmas, and a bunch of snipers just for gaks n giggles because I have enough special weapons slots to bring 4 of the boogers and still have a couple points to put bolters on the sarges. Our only real weakness is the easiness of which the enemy can pick off your specialists, so you have to be very aggressive with your generic soldiers to keep the heat off them. That, or be very careful. IG is go big or go home there, I've never had a game where we just kind of petered out and sat there. I either routed the other guy pretty hard and won big or I bled him white, and then proceeded to rout and lose almost my entire team in a single turn. Tons of fun and while I've got a pretty even win/loss ratio my club has learned to respect how much firepower I can put down when I want something absolutely gone.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
-- $k 
-- 9k 
-- 6k 
-- 4k 
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Blood Angels:
Eldar:
MO:
ASA: 
15K White Scars Brotherhood of the Twin Wolves (30K)
6K Imperial Fists 35th Cohort (30K)
7K Thousand Sons Guard of the Crimson King (30K)
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2K Mechanicum Legio Cybernetica (30K)
1K Titans of Legio Astorum
12K Cadian/Catachan/Tallarn/ST Battlegroup "Misericorde" (40K)
1K Inquisitorial Task Force "Hoffer" (40K)
2K Silver Wardens (UM Successors) 4th Company "The Avenged" (40K)
10K Empire of Man Nuln Expeditionary Force (WFB)
