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Forgive me if this is a discussion that's happened before, but it doesn't appear to have cropped up in any place I've seen.

Now, it seems to me that the bike rules in 40k are at best an abstraction too far; at worst, completely unsuitable for the type of unit they're trying to represent. Seems to me they gain a bunch of advantages over regular infantry, with very little in the way of substantial drawbacks. I've got some vague ideas about how this should be represented, but I wanted to see what other people think.

• Haven't been sold on the boost to Toughness since it first came in in 3rd ed, but since coming back to 7th, this seems to have got even sillier, with the demise of the original T value being used in some circumstances. Seems daft to me that, for example, by sitting on a jetbike a normal squishy Eldar Guardian suddenly becomes as resistant to a direct hit as a fully-armoured Space Marine. Tbh, I'm not sure it's necessary at all.

• Relentless makes sense in terms of mounted weapons, but not when guys are holding a gun in one hand and steering with the other. I suppose we can chalk this up to Rule of Cool, but it still doesn't sit particularly well with me.

• Close combat's the bit where I feel like bikes really stop being immersive and just start being silly. Sure, being charged by a maniac with a sword on a motorbike is going to be a potentially devastating experience, but after that initial charge hits, being astride a bike's going to be much more hindrance than help. Feel like some way of representing this would be good. Maybe beef up HoW for bikes, but give them some sort of penalty in subsequent rounds? Maybe a reduction to Initiative?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This may well sound like I'm in some sort of huff about bikes, but it's much more a case of wanting to like them, but the rules getting in the way of my immersion in the game.

It's pretty hard to make Bikes make intuitive sense without facing rules/limited turns at speed, which are entirely too granular to make any sense in 40k. As for melee the major disadvantage for being on a bike is losing out on an extra CCW for most armies; Marine bikes only work in close combat as ablative wounds for beatstick bike characters, Eldar jetbikes tend to go squish if they get within 15-18" of anything important (a major advantage to scatterbikes is getting to stand off a long ways).

Relentless barely comes into play for most bikes; it lets you charge after firing rapid-fire weapons (at which point it makes perfect sense, since you're shooting said rapid-fire weapon at the model you're charging), but the only Heavy weapons I know of that come on bikes are Attack Bikes' sidecar emplacement and Eldar jetbikes' underslung heavy weapon (both of which would be silly not to give Relentless to). Grav-guns get an edge, but grav-guns are a problem for reasons tangential to coming on Relentless platforms.

So I suppose the bottom line is that most of these complaints are violence inherent in the system; they're not really fixable within the constraints of 40k. If you wanted to start asking about limiting bikes in a smaller game (HoR, Kill Team, that sort of thing) there's more potential; I'll go look over my skirmish game project and the Necromunda Ash Wastes supplement and get back to you.

To be fair, the Eldar gaining a 3+ all the sudden is 0retty damn silly. Nobody will disagree with you there.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
To be fair, the Eldar gaining a 3+ all the sudden is 0retty damn silly. Nobody will disagree with you there.

Ha, all aboard the jetbike hate train. Choo choo! I think you could justify maybe a +1 to their save to account for the big canopy in front of the rider, but giving them a toughness boost AND +2 to their save seems like overdoing it. Surely the whole Eldar vibe should be "fly around and ruin people with our superior firepower, then fly off before anyone can retaliate", rather than "BLAM I'M A FLYING TANK NOW", right?

 Nazrak wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
To be fair, the Eldar gaining a 3+ all the sudden is 0retty damn silly. Nobody will disagree with you there.

Ha, all aboard the jetbike hate train. Choo choo! I think you could justify maybe a +1 to their save to account for the big canopy in front of the rider, but giving them a toughness boost AND +2 to their save seems like overdoing it. Surely the whole Eldar vibe should be "fly around and ruin people with our superior firepower, then fly off before anyone can retaliate", rather than "BLAM I'M A FLYING TANK NOW", right?

As an Eldar player I can agree that the overall save should only be 4+. The same should happen for DE Reavers (who currently only have a 5+, but should be 4+).
A 4+ armour save for the bikes just feels more appropriate, even if it does make Windriders significantly easier to drop below 25% and force a moral check.

I have played Eldar Jetbikes since 4th ed and no one complained about them having a 3+ back then, but now suddenly they are used for more than late-game objective grabbers, the 3+ and being Troops is an issue. Making them have a 4+ would at least stop some of the complaining and let me use my beloved bikes in peace

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Why should Eldar Jetbikes get an improved armor save at all? They already get the same +1T that all other bikes get, and they're already more mobile than other jetbikes.

The unrestricted access to Heavy Weapons on Windriders is, in my opinion, the biggest issue with them specifically.

As far as the general rules for bikes go, I think the biggest issue is how fast they are coupled with how small their units can be. ObSec bikes, jetbikes especially, are extremely difficult to keep off of objectives, and the 3 squad member minimum makes them very easy to spam. Change up how scoring works and increase most/all bikers to minimum five man units and bikes aren't a big deal.

 Nazrak wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
To be fair, the Eldar gaining a 3+ all the sudden is 0retty damn silly. Nobody will disagree with you there.

Ha, all aboard the jetbike hate train. Choo choo! I think you could justify maybe a +1 to their save to account for the big canopy in front of the rider, but giving them a toughness boost AND +2 to their save seems like overdoing it. Surely the whole Eldar vibe should be "fly around and ruin people with our superior firepower, then fly off before anyone can retaliate", rather than "BLAM I'M A FLYING TANK NOW", right?

You know, like the completely identical but slightly larger bikes that the Harlequins got rules for 2-3 weeks before the first rules leak of the superbonkers windriders.

Look at a Harlequin bike. Now look at a Dark Eldar bike. Now look at a Windrider.

They are COMPLETELY IDENTICAL except for the size and or spikiness of the front hood portion, and a very slight lengthening of the rear on the skyweaver.

One of them grants a 5+, one of them grants a 4+, one of them grants a 3+.

Herp muh derp.

 RustyKnight wrote:
Why should Eldar Jetbikes get an improved armor save at all? They already get the same +1T that all other bikes get, and they're already more mobile than other jetbikes.

The get it for the same reason that Land Speeders are not open-topped. GW thinks the armour of the Space Marine is just as hard as the outside of the Speeder, thus it is considered close-topped.
An Eldar Jetbike is made of the same material as an Eldar Vehicle. A 5+ Guardian save just will not cut it.

the_scotsman wrote:
Look at a Harlequin bike. Now look at a Dark Eldar bike. Now look at a Windrider.

They are COMPLETELY IDENTICAL except for the size and or spikiness of the front hood portion, and a very slight lengthening of the rear on the skyweaver.

One of them grants a 5+, one of them grants a 4+, one of them grants a 3+.

I agree with this. They should all be 4+. Shining Spears can still have a 3+ because they have Heavy Aspect armour.

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 Galef wrote:

 RustyKnight wrote:
Why should Eldar Jetbikes get an improved armor save at all? They already get the same +1T that all other bikes get, and they're already more mobile than other jetbikes.

The get it for the same reason that Land Speeders are not open-topped. GW thinks the armour of the Space Marine is just as hard as the outside of the Speeder, thus it is considered close-topped.
An Eldar Jetbike is made of the same material as an Eldar Vehicle. A 5+ Guardian save just will not cut it.

the_scotsman wrote:
Look at a Harlequin bike. Now look at a Dark Eldar bike. Now look at a Windrider.

They are COMPLETELY IDENTICAL except for the size and or spikiness of the front hood portion, and a very slight lengthening of the rear on the skyweaver.

One of them grants a 5+, one of them grants a 4+, one of them grants a 3+.

I agree with this. They should all be 4+. Shining Spears can still have a 3+ because they have Heavy Aspect armour.

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Sure, if you have a 3+ anyway (autarch, shining spears, dare I even say Archon) you should be able to get a better armor save, but at least be consistent.

Aside from Windriders having a worse save, making Eldar Jetbikes grant only a 4+ would have a big effect on Farseer and Warlock Skyrunners, who do not have armour saves at all.
Seer Council would be effectively dead (or rely even more on Invis/Fortune/etc)

Not saying that's a bad thing, Farseers would still be worth their points, but Warlocks would be taken even less than they are now.
You could always give Warlocks LD9 to make them more appealing with the 4+, since Windriders are more likely now to take moral checks, having a higher LD would be useful.
After all, every single Warlock in existence was once an Aspect warrior in their past, so they should have the same LD.

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 Galef wrote:

 RustyKnight wrote:
Why should Eldar Jetbikes get an improved armor save at all? They already get the same +1T that all other bikes get, and they're already more mobile than other jetbikes.

The get it for the same reason that Land Speeders are not open-topped. GW thinks the armour of the Space Marine is just as hard as the outside of the Speeder, thus it is considered close-topped.
An Eldar Jetbike is made of the same material as an Eldar Vehicle. A 5+ Guardian save just will not cut it.

the_scotsman wrote:
Look at a Harlequin bike. Now look at a Dark Eldar bike. Now look at a Windrider.

They are COMPLETELY IDENTICAL except for the size and or spikiness of the front hood portion, and a very slight lengthening of the rear on the skyweaver.

One of them grants a 5+, one of them grants a 4+, one of them grants a 3+.

I agree with this. They should all be 4+. Shining Spears can still have a 3+ because they have Heavy Aspect armour.

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Speeders are 45 points and AV10. They don't need help being blown up.

As well, Storms are open topped. So there's that.