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Hi people, so here's the old can of worm being opened again : is the Tau Empire really communist ?

I ask the question for multiple reason :

1-Many people in the fan base like to refer to them as space commies.

2-Yet, they don't really seem to care about things like economic equality.

3-Plus, the very concept of economics seem to be inexistant in their culture (at least, from what I have seen).

4-They have a caste system which openly recognize that some are higher than others in the social hierarchy (in real life, no communist regime seems to have ever recognized that, and in political theory, communism is supposed to be the abolition of all caste systems).

5-But still, they visibly have an all-gather-around ideology and seem to use propaganda to spread it.

So it's kinda mind-boggling in a certain way.

What's your opinion on the subject ?

***Note that I do understand the difference between communism in theory (the theories that were developped by thinkers) and communism in practice (how it was praticed historically by real-life regimes).

Copying myself from a post I made before because im lazy.

Personally I see the Tau as a Fascist Empire with strong Utilitarianism ideology. The Tau empire puts its race first with the manifest destiny goal to spread their race and ideology across the galaxy. They are diplomatic and will work with other races but the #1 goal isn't equal representation of all member of the Empire (like a federation) but to primarily spread the Tau race while sharing limited tech and resources with their xenos allies. Its common to see the Tau described as Communist but really its from that considering the Tau have a very distinct caste system which basically divide the Tau into sub races and breeding across the castes is strictly forbidden. The Ethereals are considered the supreme ruling caste and the other members of the Tau race will fanatically fight and die to protect Ethereal life. Communism is a society without class and the Tau caste system is ideologically the polar opposite of a communism society. Their focus on the society as a whole over individual goals or desires isn't inherently Communist but fits with Utilitarianism. Also the Tau have a whole thought/mind control thing going on where the Ethereal's have this subjugating effect on the other Tau. This sort of thought control and a ruling class gives a sort of Nineteen Eighty-Four vibe to their society.

Fascism often plays upon the notion of nationalism, ideology, and racial superiority which are cornerstones of the Tau's Greater Good. The Tau are not above using military might to subjugate worlds or to eliminate those which do not conform to their ideology. The Tau's focus on minimizing waste and loses is why diplomacy is first attempted because a few years of negotiations or political manipulation is far less draining on the Empire's resources than launching a full force military invasion. A federation of equals would see a mix of races fighting together instead of non racially Tau allies being used in auxiliary reserves and using their own racial equipment, weapons, and armor instead of the tech that the Tau uses. Little is known of what the day to day life of a Tau is like but there is little evidence of dissent or political turmoil in the Tau population and even less (reliable) information is know of life for non Tau living in the Empire. What can be determined is that as the Tau Empire grows it is the Tau race that colonize new worlds and little is seen of the races that are conquered by the Tau.

They're not, really, no more than they are fish-people. I assume that got started because of their 'Greater Good' slogan.

Personally, I think calling them the Neighborhood Watch fits much better.

Nope a fascist empire, pretty much what every race except nids and orks are

 TheLumberJack wrote:
Nope a fascist empire, pretty much what every race except nids and orks are

That's a but cynical. I mean, there's the... wait, no. What about... nope. Um, oh! That's not the case with... wait, yes it is. Hmm, let me get back to you on this.

They aren't communists. They're called such because they appear in practice to have certain similarities to existing governments which in turn purport or purported to be communist.

The Tau are fanatical collectivists, they differ from the idea of what communism is supposed to be in that they see state control of the means of production as the 'correct' state of society and that all members of that society must contribute to the direction outlined by the state not as a necessity for short or long-term survival, but because it is in and of itself the correct way to be.

The reasons for it are relatively straightforward, early Tau history shows why they don't trust themselves to govern themselves, and despite their flaws the broad gains made by the empire because of the Ethereal caste turned them into a galactic power in record breaking time.

I wouldn't describe them as necessarily fascist either, as there are broad implications for such a term that don't fit the Tau's policy of bringing others into their empire willingly. In fact, the way they uproot humans from captured imperial worlds in order to protect them flies in the face of that sort of characterization. Whether or not it's actually true, the fact that they tell their citizens that's what's happening and the citizens are happy with that explanation makes fascism a pretty hard argument. (Though Farsight's older characterization was closer...)

The Tau don't tell their citizens what is happening. The Tau listen to what they are told, and do what they are told.

And then, when they aren't under Ethereal control, they slowly drift off, like Farsight did. The fluff has never really explained what kind of control the Ethereals exert. There's always been that little hint of it being a subtle form of mind control, but it could also just be pervasive propaganda and social conditioning.

The Greater Good is a pragmatic sham. It helps the Tau empire protect itself in a universe that is violent and dangerous. But it's still pretty fascist. A little communist, too.

The entire Tau Empire is more or less based on the caste structure of Aldou Huxley's famous novel Brave New World (which itself is loosely based on the Indian caste structure). Tau are genetically selected for certain traits, and are barred from interbreeding between castes to preserve those genetic traits. This is almost exactly the same as the way the castes are genetically selected in BNW, except the Tau appear to breed naturally as opposed to the test-tube babies of Huxley's story. Still, you have your laborers (Earth), your flyers, your diplomats, your warriors, etc. All administrated by a small but elite class of rulers.

It's just a meme. Just like they being related to fish.

Nyet tovarisch. Now spend 10 years in GULAG for suggesting glorious communism is similar to filthy Tau bourgeois exploitation.
Glory to the workers!

I for one was disappointed that the Tau were not, in fact, space soviet fish and are more like space caste based authoritarian cow people.
For a game made during the cold war, there's a surprising lack of communist expies. All I want is a bunch of vodka drinking space bears riding even larger bears to the tune of Russian orchestral music.

lol. The Tau debuted in 2001. Almost 12 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall.

GW already did Space Russians. Twice.

That said, both of those armies debuted before GW went super-literal which meant being a Space Viking meant you rode wolves into battle and chariots drawn by wolves, and lived on a frozen planet so the most logical piece of technology you could come up with was a freeze ray to make things even colder.

 snykyninja wrote:

 TheLumberJack wrote:
Nope a fascist empire, pretty much what every race except nids and orks are

That's a but cynical. I mean, there's the... wait, no. What about... nope. Um, oh! That's not the case with... wait, yes it is. Hmm, let me get back to you on this.

Craftworld Eldar aren't always exceptionally fascist IIRC but their empire is freaking tiny and dwindling so I'm not sure it does anything but reinforce the point that being either a living bioweapon or fascist is necessary to survive the 41st millenium .

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
lol. The Tau debuted in 2001. Almost 12 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall.

GW already did Space Russians. Twice.

That said, both of those armies debuted before GW went super-literal which meant being a Space Viking meant you rode wolves into battle and chariots drawn by wolves, and lived on a frozen planet so the most logical piece of technology you could come up with was a freeze ray to make things even colder.

yeah but the game, Rogue Trader, was released in 1987, USSR was still here.

 godardc wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
lol. The Tau debuted in 2001. Almost 12 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall.

GW already did Space Russians. Twice.

That said, both of those armies debuted before GW went super-literal which meant being a Space Viking meant you rode wolves into battle and chariots drawn by wolves, and lived on a frozen planet so the most logical piece of technology you could come up with was a freeze ray to make things even colder.

yeah but the game, Rogue Trader, was released in 1987, USSR was still here.

And that game had no space commies.
Yes, Valhallans are Russians, but they weren't soviets. They were based off of WW2 Russians and tend to use the waves of waves of men tactic, but politically they are just another imperial faction. They came a bit after RT, during 3rd ed I think.
Vostroyans are cossacks, and they were released in 2006 (iirc).
I'm talking Red Alert levels of USSR stereotypes. Like that faction from AT-43.

Valhallans came out during 2nd ed.
Mid 90s.

Vostroyans came out post 3rd ed.
At least 5 years after "the wall" fell and the Union started its slow decline into eleventy different splinter states that hate each other.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I for one was disappointed that the Tau were not, in fact, space soviet fish and are more like space caste based authoritarian cow people.
For a game made during the cold war, there's a surprising lack of communist expies. All I want is a bunch of vodka drinking space bears riding even larger bears to the tune of Russian orchestral music.

Well, Tau do have those¹². But thye're reticent of using them with the Imperium around. Imagine what terrible deeds such barbarians would do if they discovered the glorious T'au have use of psykers?

¹http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nicassar
²https://1d4chan.org/images/thumb/c/c7/Nicassar.jpg/300px-Nicassar.jpg

Their original fluff was much more "utopian communist" than the new fluff which (In my humble opinion) has turned them into quasi fascist butt holes. (Except for Farsight who is the good free market democracy/republic of free thinking goodness that proves the Tau Empire is evil).

Honestly though, it's all just in jest. There's some similar concepts to Communism but obviously...not really communist. Just as the Imperium isn't really fascist or...anything that resembles a modern government.

As for communists in 40k, the Imperium isn't a real unified faction as far as economy, politics, culture and society are concerned, so there should be plenty of communist systems inside of it.

The Tau empire is a utilitarian moral dictatorship/oligarchy. And it's citizens are basically serfs.

The Tau are definitely an oligarchy, are facially utilitarian (though their measure of utility is controlled by the Ethereal caste, and is a measure that some Tau, i.e. Farsight, disagree with - a subjective utilitarianism presented as objective), and definitely have collectivist leanings but very little association with philosophical communism (The means of production/power are about as far from the common worker's control as it gets).

Though confined to their caste roles, they nevertheless retain a meritocracy of sorts (where skill seems to count for more than anything else when it comes to promotion), with the Farsight Enclaves arguably going further (O'Vesa was allowed to pilot a Riptide battlesuit due to both his effectiveness on the battlefield as well as his long-term friendship with Farsight).

The Tau appear to be an absolutely totalitarian system wherein everyone is employed by the state and everything is centrally planned; in that sense they are communist. 'Economic equality' is a buzzword or an objective rather than a method and is hard to apply as a yardstick to any system in practice (two identical systems could produce different levels of 'economic equality', two completely different systems could produce the same level of 'economic equality'; it depends on the environment in which they exist).