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More an exercise in trying to understand the army than a to-buy list. I've seen them played a few times on MWG and at the local gameroom, and in every game I've seen the players have used them differently, some with better results than others - lists which hew to the Cult Ambush gimmick tend to run better than heavily mechanised armies, armies with more bodies tend to fare better than armies with more wargear, but armies without wargear are not very killy - that being said, their shooting is atrocious, so any ranged wargear is generally not worth the cost.

With that in mind here's my attempt to build a GSC army:

Cult Insurrection 1 (Primary):
Lord:
= Patriarch, Psyker level 2

Doting Throng:
= Magus, Psyker level 2
= 5x Acolytes, 1x Rock Saw
= 5x Acolytes, 1x Rock Saw
= 10x Neophytes, 2 Flamers

Brood Cycle:
= Acolyte Iconward
= 5x Acolytes, 1x Rock Saw
= 5x Acolytes, 1x Rock Saw
= 5x Acolytes
= 10x Neophytes, 2 Flamers
= 10x Neophytes, 2 Flamers
= Metamorphs
= Purestrains


Cult Insurrection 1 (Primary):
Lord:
= Patriarch, Psyker level 2

Lord:
= Magus, Psyker level 2

Brood Cycle:
= Acolyte Iconward
= 5x Acolytes, 1x Rock Saw
= 5x Acolytes, 1x Rock Saw
= 5x Acolytes
= 10x Neophytes, 2 Flamers
= 10x Neophytes, 2 Flamers
= Metamorphs
= Purestrains

Mutants:
= Metamorphs


The whole army gets Infiltrate due to the Insurrection detachments, so it can all deploy by Cult Ambush. Patriarchs run with the Purestrains and either take out min-maxed squads or act as a tie-breaker for tarpits, Magi sit with their Neophytes and either cast or hide in combat, Iconwards give extra attacks and FNP to the Acolytes with Saws, who will either go tank hunting or monster hunting depending on the opponent. The Patriarchs will probably roll on Biomancy, while the Magi will roll on Broodmind and fish for Telepathic Summon.

None of the units are particularly scary on their own, but Cult Ambush means every single one can be removed and redeployed to mob stuff to death. The fact there are so many units guards against poor Cult Ambush rolls; rolling for so many units means you'll generally get a combination worth having, and any units which get poor rolls are unlikely to end up isolated.

Your missing 2 important things: subterrenean uprising and (more) metamorphs with +2 strenght (claw). Genestealer cult are a glass hammer and you need more hammering and more protection by being in close combat and not in the open.

metamorphs with +2 strenght and furious charge already get S7 with rending, so no need for that much rock saws.

I also think you spend a lot of points on characters (2 icons?) in a 1500 point list. The best thing for genestealer cult in a 1500 point list are the cheap MSU rending acolytes and metamorphs.

I actually proxied this army in a game against shooty Eldar earlier today. Didn't get a good feel for the army because we were both a bit unsure what was going on, but from that limited experience I definitely agree that Uprisings are a good idea. The two-dice Ambushes would be handy, especially for Metamorphs and Acolytes which are really good units. The problem I have is trying to fit the Uprisings in around all the other stuff I want to bring.

I want to keep the Cult Insurrection Detachment because it's awesome, but I also want the four psykers, so with a maximum of 1 Patriarch and 1 Magus per Insurrection I need at least two Insurrections, and thus two Core choices. The Brood Cycle seems like the best of those to me; side AV10 vehicles are dreadful at the best of times, but especially so with such a fragile army that wants to move forward/ Infiltrate, so the Cavalcade doesn't strike me as a good idea. Plus the Insurrection gives everyone Infiltrate, and extends the Iconward's FNP/ Furious Charge bubbles to 24" when applied to units from the same Cycle.

I also need two Auxilliary choices, which I guess is where the Uprisings would come in. I could probably ditch the Doting Throng - their special rules never really came up during the game because the Magi were generally casting Maledictions or Conjurations - and fit an Uprising in that way. I'll have a tinker with it and see what happens. I also agree there's too many Saws - I still want to have **some** Saws, because Rending can't deal with everything, but 6 is maybe too many. The Flamers seem a bit wasteful too.

metamorphs with +2 strenght and furious charge already get S7 with rending, so no need for that much rock saws.

The Rending Claws and Metamorph Claws are separate weapons; you can either Rend or get S7, but you can't have both on the same roll.

I would drop a Cult insurrection detachment and a Doting Throng and get a simple CAD instead, and use the remaining points for a Subterrean uprisings.

example:

Cult Insurrection 1 (Primary):
Lord:
= Patriarch, Psyker level 2
= Magus, Psyker level 2

Brood Cycle:
= Acolyte Iconward
= 5x Acolytes, 1x flamer
= 5x Acolytes, 1x flamer
= 5x Acolytes, 1x flamer
= 10x Neophytes, 2 Flamers
= 10x Neophytes, 2 Flamers
= Metamorphs (+claws)
= Purestrains

CAD:
= Patriarch, Psyker level 2
= Magus, Psyker level 2
= 5x Acolytes, 1x flamer
= 5x Acolytes, 1x flamer

subterrean uprising
= 15x Acolytes, 2x rock saw (Characters go here)
= 5x Acolytes, 1x flamer
= Metamorphs (+claws)
= Metamorphs (+claws)
= Metamorphs (+claws)

This way you can have your 4 characters but I still think its better to drop the whole CAD with characters and get another subterean uprising.

About the rending claws: The metamorph claws gives the model +2 strenght and doenst count as a close combat weapon I believe.

shogun wrote:
This way you can have your 4 characters but I still think its better to drop the whole CAD with characters and get another subterean uprising.

In my view I think you need the characters, if only for Denial dice. Stuff like Perfect Timing and Invisibility **has** to be Denied, and 8 dice is a reasonable number for doing that. Plus it gives you enough dice to have a decent chance of getting your own powers off past Librarius Conclaves and the like.

I agree about the Uprisings though. Doing it your way means I can't Infiltrate the Magii, but it means all my Ambushing units get 2D6, whereas with the Brood Cycle you get +1WS but only 1D6, which means slightly more hits in assault but less chance of getting there. That was one of my main problems in the game, crumby Ambush rolls landing key units in stupid places.

I also don't think Flamers are necessary. You can deny cover saves to hordes by charging them, there's no real need to shoot them.

About the rending claws: The metamorph claws gives the model +2 strenght and doenst count as a close combat weapon I believe.

Their Claw is listed as "Wargear" and has a melee weapon profile in the Appendix. You have to choose between it and the Rending Claws when making close combat attacks, so you can't have the benefits of both at the same time. That sucks because S7 Rending would be great for killing Walkers and the like, but it is what it is. The Claws are still a good option, they just don't get Rending.


EDIT: I've just checked the Codex - it says "A model equipped with [x] adds [whatever] to it's [y] characteristic during the fight subphase", so you're right - they DO get S7 Rending! Still not sure I trust it to deal with Land Raiders and the like, but that's pretty cool all the same. Definitely have to rejig the list now.

 BBAP wrote:

In my view I think you need the characters, if only for Denial dice. Stuff like Perfect Timing and Invisibility **has** to be Denied, and 8 dice is a reasonable number for doing that. Plus it gives you enough dice to have a decent chance of getting your own powers off past Librarius Conclaves and the like.

Thats only if you're facing a big deathstar and even then you're not going to stop that invisiblity. You can tie up these kind of units with fearless cult units and keep grapping the objectives.

 BBAP wrote:
Definitely have to rejig the list now.

Maybe I can show you my 1850 point list for inspiration:

Cult Insurrection 1 (Primary):
Lord:
= Patriarch, Psyker level 2

Brood Cycle:
= Acolyte Iconward
= 5x Acolytes, 1x flamer
= 5x Acolytes, 1x flamer
= 5x Acolytes, 1x flamer
= 10x Neophytes, 2 Flamers
= 10x Neophytes, 2 Flamers
= Metamorphs (+claws)
= Purestrains

subterrean uprising
= Primus
= 15x Acolytes, 2x rock saw (Characters go here)
= 5x Acolytes, 1x flamer
= Metamorphs (+claws)
= Metamorphs (+claws)
= Metamorphs (+claws)

subterrean uprising
= 5x Acolytes, 1x flamer
= 5x Acolytes, 1x flamer
= Metamorphs (+claws)
= Metamorphs (+claws)
= Metamorphs (+claws)

subterrean uprising
= 5x Acolytes, 1x flamer
= 5x Acolytes, 1x flamer
= Metamorphs (+claws)

Tyranids CAD
HQ= Deathleaper
Troops= 1x mycolid spore bomb
Troops= 1x mycolid spore bomb
Fast attack= myotic spore cluster (forgeworld) x3
Fortification= aegis defence line

Spore field= 3x1 mucolid spore bombs + 3x3 spore mines

Spore field= 3x1 mucolid spore bombs + 3x3 spore mines

This way I can always deploy/infiltrate all my spore bombs to make sure I dont get completely killed when I put all my genestealer cult units in ongoing reserves. The myotic spore clusters can take away those Inquisitor servo skulls to make sure that you can use the ambush rule to drop those genestealer cult units turn 2.

I play tournaments and it really sucks when the seize the initiative. Its often better to deploy behind the aegis defence line (4+ cover with shrouded first turn) and go into ongoing reserves with everything and start playing second turn. Also really speeds up the game. Patriarch + Primus join the big acolyte unit and can roll 3d6 for ambush.

shogun wrote:
Its often better to deploy behind the aegis defence line (4+ cover with shrouded first turn) and go into ongoing reserves with everything and start playing second turn.

I was thinking that myself; leaving a handful of units in cover and Returning everything else seems to be the only way to play this army if you're going second. Nothing on the table = autolose is very silly indeed.

I rejigged the list myself this afternoon; I'm playing the Eldar player again tomorrow so I should get a chance to test it then. Here it is in the meantime:

Cult Insurrection (Primary):

Brood Cycle:
== Acolyte Iconward
== 5 Acolytes
== 5 Acolytes
== 5 Acolytes
== 10 Neophytes
== 10 Neophytes
== 5 Purestrain Genestealers
== 5 Metamorphs w/ Claws

Subterranean Uprising:
== 5 Acolytes, 1 Rock Saw
== 5 Acolytes, 1 Rock Saw
== 5 Acolytes, 1 Rock Saw
== 5 Acolytes, 1 Rock Saw
== 5 Metamorphs w/ Claws
== 5 Metamorphs w/ Claws
== 5 Metamorphs w/ Claws

Lord of the Cult:
= Patriarch, Psyker level 2, Scourge of Distant Stars

Lord of the Cult:
= Magus, Psyker level 2

Subterranean Uprising:
== 5 Acolytes, 1 Rock Saw
== 5 Acolytes, 1 Rock Saw
== 5 Metamorphs w/ Claws
== 5 Metamorphs w/ Claws

Combined Arms Detachment:
== Magus, Psyker level 2
== Magus, Psyker level 2
== 10 Neophytes
== 10 Neophytes


Patriarch has the Scourge because I had points left over. I was thinking about dropping some Morphs and adding a Primus, but I really don't like him at all. 3 dice Ambush rolls and a Hatred bubble is great, but he's not a great model for his points, so I stuck with the extra Morphs instead.

Definitely feels like a more reliable Cult Ambush army at first glance.

Maybe this is better:

Cult Insurrection (Primary):

Brood Cycle:
== Acolyte Iconward
== 5 Acolytes
== 5 Acolytes
== 5 Acolytes
== 10 Neophytes
== 10 Neophytes
== 5 Purestrain Genestealers
== 5 Metamorphs w/ Claws

Subterranean Uprising:
== 5 Acolytes
== 5 Acolytes
== 5 Metamorphs w/ Claws
== 5 Metamorphs w/ Claws
== 5 Metamorphs w/ Claws

Lord of the Cult:
= Patriarch, Psyker level 2

Subterranean Uprising:
== 10 Acolytes, 2 Rock Saws
== 10 Acolytes, 2 Rock Saws
== 5 Metamorphs w/ Claws
== 5 Metamorphs w/ Claws

Combined Arms Detachment:
= Patriarch, Psyker level 2 (warlord)
= Patriarch, Psyker level 2
== 5 Acolytes
== 5 Acolytes

If you're only fielding one patriarch and dont put him in a big(ger) unit if will have a big bullseye on his face, because the will try to take away your fearless. This way you still got 3 psykers but their also solid close combat models that will make sure you wont run out of fearless bubbles. Put those patriarchs with the 10 acolyte unit and you got a few bodies for meatshield. For the same reason I put 2 rocksaws in the big units to make sure you got sumthing for the big armor targets. Their still fragile units so when you got a rock saw in each 5-men unit, the die easily with an extra 20Points on top.

I do like the Primus myself, because that extra d6 with subterean uprising is very important to get my single patriarch in a good position. Once I rolled a 1-1-2, and that really sucked, but thats the kind of thing that can happen. Its also a very cheap way to get a hatred bubble because thats a lot of rerolls if you got first turn charge. Apart from that its still a good close combat model with an instant death blade + furious charge. But in a 1500p list you could leave him home i guess.

If I were you I would playtest an armylist with less psykers and more units. At 1500 points those acolytes + metamorphs are a steal and you cannot have enough.

shogun wrote:
If I were you I would playtest an armylist with less psykers and more units

Yeah, I'm thinking this myself now. Finished the game against the Eldar - there was no point at which I felt the psykers did anything decisive (not even the Denials, although he did roll some pretty wretched powers), and the Acolytes and Morphs are so fragile it's almost impossible to count on them for anything. Two squads apiece were failing to wipe 4 bikes or 5 Spiders a turn, and even when I thought it was safe to send them in alone they sometimes came close to whiffing - one squad of Morphs almost lost a fight against two Vaul's Wrath battery crewmen thanks to some hot Overwatch rolling and two wounds at I5.

The answer definitely seems to be more units. I might try that next week, maybe run two Patriarchs and some more Uprisings. I might even take a Primus - I had a streak of really good Ambush rolls followed by a streak of really bad ones, even with the 2D6 from the formation, which made the game harder than it needed to be, I felt. The Primus would help smooth that out a bit.

I still don't like him though, lol

I do not like the brood cycle. It has several units that just don't gel for me that I'd rather have in my sub uprising.

I prefer the cavalcade because every unit in it has a benefit.

Russ gives much needed firepower...the ignores cover large blast plus 3 heavy bolters out flanking is great plus 2 neophyte squads with flamers out flanking in chimera are great plus a pair of armored sentenals with heavy flamers are great with cult ambush. All this adds to my sub uprising rather than taking attention from it.

Timeshadow wrote:
I prefer the cavalcade because every unit in it has a benefit.

I'm not seeing the benefits, to be honest. I've never felt the army lacked for firepower either of the times I played it - with Cult Ambush you have the mobility to neutralise and counter any long-range shooting that's set against you, especially so with the Uprisings, so spending three Acolyte squad's-worth of points on an Outflanking tank just seems wasteful to me. I suppose if you're looking for units to keep on the table while Ambushing everything else you could do worse than a Leman Russ and some AV12, but I dunno... I'm not sold on it at all.

 BBAP wrote:

Timeshadow wrote:
I prefer the cavalcade because every unit in it has a benefit.

I'm not seeing the benefits, to be honest. I've never felt the army lacked for firepower either of the times I played it - with Cult Ambush you have the mobility to neutralise and counter any long-range shooting that's set against you, especially so with the Uprisings, so spending three Acolyte squad's-worth of points on an Outflanking tank just seems wasteful to me. I suppose if you're looking for units to keep on the table while Ambushing everything else you could do worse than a Leman Russ and some AV12, but I dunno... I'm not sold on it at all.

Try seeing what happens to most meq units when an ar 12 walker assaults them.... add heavy flamer and wham.

Having a unit of Neo with 2 flamers dropped off by a chimera that unloads the multi laser and heavy bolter...does very well. A russ behind the enemy is sweet.

Timeshadow wrote:
Try seeing what happens to most meq units when an ar 12 walker assaults them

... it sits in combat for 3 turns until it gets Glanced to death by grenades? Charging stuff with Sentinels seems like something you'd do when you're scrambling for VPs in turn 5+. It's not really a selling point, especially not when killing stuff in assault - MEQs or otherwise - is something the rest of my army can do without Walkers.

Having a unit of Neo with 2 flamers dropped off by a chimera that unloads the multi laser and heavy bolter...does very well. A russ behind the enemy is sweet.

A Russ behind the enemy is the same as a Russ in front of the enemy, except if you try to use both sponsons you have to turn it so its rear AV is facing his table edge. That seems like a bad position to be in if he has reserves.

Like I said, it may be a playstyle thing, but to me all the mechanised clobber just seems to detract from the mobility and fluidity of the army, which I think is the book's real strength.

Biomancy is a pretty crappy decision for a patriarch.... Too many witchfire powers... A Primaris witchfire (so you can't even switch it out). Patriarch is BS 0 so can't use witchfires with a roll to hit.. Witchfirs like psychic shriek are ok though because they don't roll to hit.

The Patriarch has BS4. Biomancy gives him a chance at Iron Arm and Endurance - if he gets either of those powers he might get to cast. If he doesn't the Magi can use all the dice.

 BBAP wrote:

shogun wrote:
If I were you I would playtest an armylist with less psykers and more units

Yeah, I'm thinking this myself now. Finished the game against the Eldar - there was no point at which I felt the psykers did anything decisive (not even the Denials, although he did roll some pretty wretched powers), and the Acolytes and Morphs are so fragile it's almost impossible to count on them for anything. Two squads apiece were failing to wipe 4 bikes or 5 Spiders a turn, and even when I thought it was safe to send them in alone they sometimes came close to whiffing - one squad of Morphs almost lost a fight against two Vaul's Wrath battery crewmen thanks to some hot Overwatch rolling and two wounds at I5.

The answer definitely seems to be more units. I might try that next week, maybe run two Patriarchs and some more Uprisings. I might even take a Primus - I had a streak of really good Ambush rolls followed by a streak of really bad ones, even with the 2D6 from the formation, which made the game harder than it needed to be, I felt. The Primus would help smooth that out a bit.

I still don't like him though, lol

If you want to use psychic powers effectively, your better of with a big acolyte unit+ icon +2x patriarch + Primus. You got a small deathstar thats got 3d6 ambush. For me, the only reason to fish for biomancy is if you really want that feel no pain (+1 with the icon so thats a 3+) although it doesn't save you from S6 hits. Apart from that I rather go for Telepathy because it gives you a better toolbox of options.

You got the Primus for the bonuses. It's the kind of model that doesn't do a lot by himself so after each game it felt like he did nothing. But if you do get the first turn ambush charging units, it means a reroll to hit for each and every unit within 12 inch. That could be the difference between a dead or still alive wraithknight/imperial knight. Also against a deathstar unit that didn't get a chance to use psychic powers its a great extra amount of attacks to get the sting out.

Re: Brood cycle vs cavalcade, they're almost exactly the same points barebones, which people don't seem to realise. As such, whilst the units in a brood cycle are ofc worse than those in an uprising, they contribute far more to the threat overload theme of cults.

Also, be careful about putting non-primus HQs in uprising units - the draft faqs prevent rules from formations transferring over to non-formation units (things like skyhammer and ICs wouldn't be able to charge from DS, for example). Whilst the wording of 'a primus' creates an exception for outside primuses, the same isn't true of patriarchs - though that could be argued, it seems the best interpretation to me.

shogun wrote:
Apart from that I rather go for Telepathy because it gives you a better toolbox of options.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I do think Broodmind is worth considering. Psychic Stimulus and Mass Hypnosis are nifty powers in their own right, and Telepathic Summons is awesome. Unlike Summoning, which gives you a bunch of vanilla Daemons Troops which nobody cares about, the units you get from a 3-charge Telepathic Summons can be quite scary. Being able to drop upgraded units of Morphs or Purestrains on people seems like it'd make for a serious stressor, especially in turns where you have a big Ambush coming in. If nothing else it gives your opponent one more unit to try and kill before it vanishes, or potentially provides you another hidden placeholder so you can Return everything else.

All that said, Telepathy definitely seems like a better choice for the Patriarch.

Yea- now that I looked again- Patriarch is BS4... For some reason I had in my head that he was BS0... Biomancy isn't as bad of a choice as I thought after all...

 BBAP wrote:

shogun wrote:
Apart from that I rather go for Telepathy because it gives you a better toolbox of options.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I do think Broodmind is worth considering. Psychic Stimulus and Mass Hypnosis are nifty powers in their own right, and Telepathic Summons is awesome. Unlike Summoning, which gives you a bunch of vanilla Daemons Troops which nobody cares about, the units you get from a 3-charge Telepathic Summons can be quite scary. Being able to drop upgraded units of Morphs or Purestrains on people seems like it'd make for a serious stressor, especially in turns where you have a big Ambush coming in. If nothing else it gives your opponent one more unit to try and kill before it vanishes, or potentially provides you another hidden placeholder so you can Return everything else.

All that said, Telepathy definitely seems like a better choice for the Patriarch.

Its not bad, it all depends on the enemies army. When iam facing a Stormsurge I also might try to get it to shoot his own units. I could not resist the temptation.

Oh yes - Mind Control is pure, beautiful filth. It's highly situational, but when it works it can be glorious.