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After playing quite a few games vs my friends new demon prince and bloodthirster and quite a few games with my flyrants I noticed that FMC are trying to fill to roles in that they are trying to be jump MCs and they are also trying to be the MC version of flyers. I think it woud be a good thing for the game if FMC was broken into two groups so one could be the equivalent of jump infantry for stuff like bloodthirsters demon princes and hive tyrants and one could be the MC of flyers for stuff like hive crones.

If something is meant to only be a JMC, then they will be listed as a JMC. Everything else is about stats, Wargear, and the individual Special Rules. There is no reason to make FMCs as effective in Assault as JMCs.

More realistically, we need to look at units like Gargoyles, Swooping Hawks, and Scourges, which are supposed to be Flying Infantry (or Beasts, etc), but have to make do with only bounding across the field in such a way that is ridiculous when compared to what Raven Guard Jump Infantry are capable of doing.

It would be nicer if Flying/Jumping weren't different things generally across the board, especially given that FW's figures suggest Falcons and Raiders should be faster than Valkyries.

The whole flying thing needs to be reworked from the ground up.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
It would be nicer if Flying/Jumping weren't different things generally across the board, especially given that FW's figures suggest Falcons and Raiders should be faster than Valkyries.

They probably should be different things over all, much like Flyers and Fast Skimmers are different things. If a model is to be a hybrid (which I now think is being suggested in the OP), it should stand out as much as Hover does for a Storm Raven.

Apologies if this is too tangential, but would everyone think of simply doing away with flyers in standard games of 40k? Simply make anything with the "flyer" rule count as a fast skimmer instead, possibly upping their movement speed to 18". Sort of kind of like 5th edition's method of dealing with things like Valkyries that were meant to be used in both standard 40k and apoc.

Not to turn this into an anti-flyer thread, but flyers...

* End up moving in awkward-looking circles because a 6x4 table is simply too small for them to move in a reasonable fashion.

* Are untouchable against a melee-heavy army and basically non-interactive against an army without either skyfire or sufficient mid-strength shots to try and bring them down anyway.

*Bring a not-insignificant number of extra rules into the game that probably don't need to be a thing.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Apologies if this is too tangential, but would everyone think of simply doing away with flyers in standard games of 40k? Simply make anything with the "flyer" rule count as a fast skimmer instead, possibly upping their movement speed to 18". Sort of kind of like 5th edition's method of dealing with things like Valkyries that were meant to be used in both standard 40k and apoc.

I think that it needs to be addressed an properly sequenced, but I don't think they just need to be dropped so much. Flyers operate in that sphere of the slow flyer that passes by. A hypersonic aircraft would not even be a blip on this game except if it was represented in the same manner as a Marine Chapter Master's Orbital Bombardment. I do think Gunships have a place, as well as Drop and Go Transports. Should they be as powerful in their rules? Probably not. Should they be able to stay on the table as much as they are? Possibly not, especially in the case of Transports, but less so in the case of Gunships. Gunships are not well represented by Fast Skimmers (though they have been operating under this concept from 2nd through 5th), as most are not that slow or nimble.

Wyldhunt wrote:
* End up moving in awkward-looking circles because a 6x4 table is simply too small for them to move in a reasonable fashion.

This is true to a point. And this is one of the reasons for the development of Ongoing Reserves. This is not a bad thing, though, as something that goes very fast should not be very nimble and should be far more predictable in its path. Take a look at some Gunship operations like the Apache and Cobra to get some idea of what I am talking about. Of course, those operate on a far larger theater than we see in a normal 40K game, which I think was your point.

Wyldhunt wrote:
* Are untouchable against a melee-heavy army and basically non-interactive against an army without either skyfire or sufficient mid-strength shots to try and bring them down anyway.

It is not basically non-interactive against an army without skyfire. It is basically interactive, and that is part of the problem, it is only very very basic. And any army with insufficient mid-strength shots is going to have a hard time against heavy armor, and Flyers are not heavy armor.

Admittedly, a melee-dedicated army cannot touch Flyers very well, but in this environment, they cannot touch a gun heavy army very well, either.

Wyldhunt wrote:
*Bring a not-insignificant number of extra rules into the game that probably don't need to be a thing.

That's a matter of preference. No matter how you slice it, Flyers are not Infantry. They are not Beasts, Bikers, Jumpers, Jet Packers, or giant monsters. So, yeah, they are going to be bringing a bunch of rules to allow them to properly operate. But by the same go, we could talk about how much Vehicles change things, and they bring a far greater quantity of rules than both FMC and Flyers bring on their own. So by that measure, let's get rid of all the Tanks, Transports, Skimmers, Chariots, and other non-organic units.

There are people who have been clamoring for Flyers on the Citadel side of 40K ever since ForgeWorld started releasing Flyers for Apocalypse, so completely dropping Flyers are a no go from their perspective. Personally, I think they have been needed, but they could definitely be better setup. For example, if a Bike is supposed to be hard to hit because of its speed is granted a Cover Save, why do we need Skyfire to hit something that is equally fast? Should it not be a Cover Save as well, or mayhaps an Invulnerable Save which is then denied by Skyfire?

 Charistoph wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
It would be nicer if Flying/Jumping weren't different things generally across the board, especially given that FW's figures suggest Falcons and Raiders should be faster than Valkyries.

They probably should be different things over all, much like Flyers and Fast Skimmers are different things. If a model is to be a hybrid (which I now think is being suggested in the OP), it should stand out as much as Hover does for a Storm Raven.

My point was that I don't think Flyers and Fast Skimmers should be different things either. Flyers in current 40k are wonky because of the difficulty of getting AA firepower in most lists and the fact that a lot of the profiles were designed to be Fast Skimmers (which is why the Valkyrie is AV12 when pre-6e FW didn't put armour above 11 on any Flyer that wasn't a Thunderhawk), if Flyers and Fast Skimmers existed in one type somewhere between the two skimmers would be harder to kill in melee, Flyers would be less unkillable if you didn't bring heavily specialized tools, there would be fewer weird inconsistencies in the game, and we'd all have to know one less unit type.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

My point was that I don't think Flyers and Fast Skimmers should be different things either. Flyers in current 40k are wonky because of the difficulty of getting AA firepower in most lists and the fact that a lot of the profiles were designed to be Fast Skimmers (which is why the Valkyrie is AV12 when pre-6e FW didn't put armour above 11 on any Flyer that wasn't a Thunderhawk), if Flyers and Fast Skimmers existed in one type somewhere between the two skimmers would be harder to kill in melee, Flyers would be less unkillable if you didn't bring heavily specialized tools, there would be fewer weird inconsistencies in the game, and we'd all have to know one less unit type.

A Flyer is a Skimmer that cannot stop being a Skimmer, cannot slow down enough to be truly nimble, and never drops down to ground-effect level. But I do think there needs to be a differentiation. If a Vehicle spends all of its time at ground level without wheels and can skip over Terrain, it should stay a Skimmer. If a Vehicle spends all of its time well over a building top, it should be a Flyer. If it mixes, that's what we have the Hover rule for. Skimmer is just an old-school and Vehicle-specific term to mean "Vehicle (Jet Pack)".

You do have a point regarding the AV of certain flyers. A Valkyrie should be changed to reflect what it looks like. It does not look as hardy as a Storm Raven, much less a Thunderhawk.

But I think you are looking at fixing the wrong thing when addressing this point. The problem isn't with the rules in this area, it is in what has been assigned to that slot and how they are working. Falcons, Devilfish, and Land Speeders are all noted for flitting around up in the atmosphere, but the first two don't do that in the game, and Land Speeders only do that when Deep Striking.

If we went through all the Skimmers in the game and then re-assigned those that are appropriate from being (Skimmer) to (Flyer, Hover), we would probably see the majority changed to reflect this, and see very, very few Skimmers. Off the top of my head, we'll probably only see the Necron Vehicles remain the same by doing that. The Arks and Barges are not noted for flitting around the sky, the Monolith just wouldn't work at all, and I seriously don't think anyone wants to see the Vault or Obelisk as Super-Heavy Flyers or see them as such.

If GW was willing to do that (or any house ruler), I think we may actually see a further refinement of the rules and things being a little more rational when it comes to the Flyer rules.

Take away the Necron vehicles' Skimmer subtype and give them Move Through Cover and Deep Strike. Problem solved.

I'm finding the way strike aircraft work in Team Yankee interesting, in effect they are always in reserve.

Start of your turn on a 4+ they arrive, place them anywhere, before they make an attack anything able to fire at them may do so, the survivors attack and are them placed back into reserve.

Nice way to simulate strafing runs, still gets the models on the table and the model mattering for who can see it - TY assumes everyone can always see an aircraft, but that the view may be obscured, only certain weapons can fire at aircraft

AnomanderRake wrote:Take away the Necron vehicles' Skimmer subtype and give them Move Through Cover and Deep Strike. Problem solved.

They don't Deep Strike (except for the Monolith) and Move Through Cover would be contraindicated. As I said earlier, "Jet Pack" would be the most appropriate. Jet Packers don't have virtual immunity Dangerous Terrain, and still allows them to skip over intervening Terrain.

leopard wrote:I'm finding the way strike aircraft work in Team Yankee interesting, in effect they are always in reserve.

Start of your turn on a 4+ they arrive, place them anywhere, before they make an attack anything able to fire at them may do so, the survivors attack and are them placed back into reserve.

Nice way to simulate strafing runs, still gets the models on the table and the model mattering for who can see it - TY assumes everyone can always see an aircraft, but that the view may be obscured, only certain weapons can fire at aircraft

Battletech uses a similar system. It is a little easier to define with the default setup being on a hexboard and the fact that Shooting Damage doesn't prevent another unit from Shooting in the same Turn.