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So ive been list building and I have noticed that one list I never consider is the Chaos Warband in any form. And the main reason I do this is the marine tax. I simply find it to hard to swallow the idea of spending so many points on two tax units that will never make their points back. I had a fleeting idea of dumping the boltguns for a CC weapon but then remembered the age old CSM problem of no delivery methods. I thought of adding a sorc to the unit to provide extra ranged punch. But that would be spending good points on bad points. I feel running a 5 man squad in a rhino is not a solution because while they can grab an objective they cant hold it. So, in my summation the only thing to do with them is to make them into objective holders. As im sure most have already known this. But my question is this. What is the best way to make them into holders. 10 strong with MoN? Is MoS + Icon of excess to many points for holders? How about adding in a sorc to either augment ranged fire power or unit protection? Im at a loss of how to work with this humble basic unit. Any ideas or thoughts on the matter would be very appreciated.

Just 5 in a rhino probably with a melta or with a flamer. A flamer is going to be more useful i think. I also like to add dozer blades to rhinos. They're useful by simply being there. Scoring, denying, going for the opponent's msu. Not amazing but passable. If you hate the idea of investing anything into them, just go with 5 and and autocannon for scoring. But rhinos are more useful imo.

5 with a plasma gun in a rhino with a havoc launcher is decent

5 with a meltagun, combi-melta and melta bombs for tank hunting- obviously in a rhino

MSU with a flamer for going after enemy MSU

If on foot a unit of 10 with a heavy weapon and plasma gun might be alright, but definitely consider them a defensive unit to be kept in cover

Table wrote:
So ive been list building and I have noticed that one list I never consider is the Chaos Warband in any form. And the main reason I do this is the marine tax. I simply find it to hard to swallow the idea of spending so many points on two tax units that will never make their points back. I had a fleeting idea of dumping the boltguns for a CC weapon but then remembered the age old CSM problem of no delivery methods. I thought of adding a sorc to the unit to provide extra ranged punch. But that would be spending good points on bad points. I feel running a 5 man squad in a rhino is not a solution because while they can grab an objective they cant hold it. So, in my summation the only thing to do with them is to make them into objective holders. As im sure most have already known this. But my question is this. What is the best way to make them into holders. 10 strong with MoN? Is MoS + Icon of excess to many points for holders? How about adding in a sorc to either augment ranged fire power or unit protection? Im at a loss of how to work with this humble basic unit. Any ideas or thoughts on the matter would be very appreciated.

You have hit the nail on the head. Firepower is way too cheap compared to the durability of CSMs. 16 of them with MoS, IoE, 2 meltaguns, power sword, and VotLW clock in at 361, while an Imperial Knights costs 370. Just as a point comparison, one is substantially better than the other.

However, let's address the issue at hand. I prefer the MoS and IoE, especially if combined with VotLW, CCWs, and and power-sword wielding Aspiring Champion. It's tailored for murdering Loyalists jumping out of their drop pods, as you strike at I5, re-rolling missed to Hit rolls in the first round, with 3 attacks on a charge. The lack of T5 is alleviated by fewer attacks swinging back. The issue is obviously the cost, grav, and durability. VotLW is a must tbh, as LD10 means you won't run away, while FnP (and sitting in cover) is protection against grav, your main enemy. I also find T5 isn't as good as it once was, as there's so much S7+ AP3 blasts going around (it'll always wound on 2+, but at least you get an extra 5+ FnP at S7), the 5+ FnP is better. I'm not too impressed with the unit myself, tbh, but it works reasonably well against Loyalists, but it will spend a lot of time going to ground against most enemies.

Points spent on Sorcerers to buff up a unit of CSMs is better spent buffing an actually good unit, so I wouldn't bother. Go Cabal or go home.

 koooaei wrote:
Just 5 in a rhino probably with a melta or with a flamer. A flamer is going to be more useful i think. I also like to add dozer blades to rhinos. They're useful by simply being there. Scoring, denying, going for the opponent's msu. Not amazing but passable. If you hate the idea of investing anything into them, just go with 5 and and autocannon for scoring. But rhinos are more useful imo.

Can't take an autocannon at 5 men, you can only take a special. The heavy option opens up at 10 men, but everyone just takes a second special at that point anyway. Speaking of, 10 mooks with double specials in a rhino is ~200 points and isn't totally useless, but if you're desperate for points (and if you're playing CSM you usually are), leaving them at 5 models per squad and simply hiding them on a rear objective and going to ground anytime someone looks in their direction is probably the way to go. Think of them as slightly sturdier cultists.

 Drasius wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Just 5 in a rhino probably with a melta or with a flamer. A flamer is going to be more useful i think. I also like to add dozer blades to rhinos. They're useful by simply being there. Scoring, denying, going for the opponent's msu. Not amazing but passable. If you hate the idea of investing anything into them, just go with 5 and and autocannon for scoring. But rhinos are more useful imo.

Can't take an autocannon at 5 men, you can only take a special. The heavy option opens up at 10 men, but everyone just takes a second special at that point anyway. Speaking of, 10 mooks with double specials in a rhino is ~200 points and isn't totally useless, but if you're desperate for points (and if you're playing CSM you usually are), leaving them at 5 models per squad and simply hiding them on a rear objective and going to ground anytime someone looks in their direction is probably the way to go. Think of them as slightly sturdier cultists.

Oh, no autocannon than.

ld10 cultists to boot. That can do some damage in melee to non-melee targets like pod marines. Or fire a few bolters from time to time.

I just do two 5-man teams with Melta/Combi-Melta, and ideally squeeze Dirge Casters onto the Rhinos, then go down the Bike&Spawn route. If I wanted to do the "rhinospam" route, I'll do Chosen/Havocs with 2 Specials each, but then I might as well be playing Sisters. Instead, I'm doing double termicide/double helbrutes.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I just do two 5-man teams with Melta/Combi-Melta, and ideally squeeze Dirge Casters onto the Rhinos, then go down the Bike&Spawn route. If I wanted to do the "rhinospam" route, I'll do Chosen/Havocs with 2 Specials each, but then I might as well be playing Sisters. Instead, I'm doing double termicide/double helbrutes.

But you dont get the psychic shenanigans that CSM provides with sisters. But I digress. Thank you to all for your thoughts on this matter. Im going to throw some lists together and see what I can make stick.

Table wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I just do two 5-man teams with Melta/Combi-Melta, and ideally squeeze Dirge Casters onto the Rhinos, then go down the Bike&Spawn route. If I wanted to do the "rhinospam" route, I'll do Chosen/Havocs with 2 Specials each, but then I might as well be playing Sisters. Instead, I'm doing double termicide/double helbrutes.

But you dont get the psychic shenanigans that CSM provides with sisters. But I digress. Thank you to all for your thoughts on this matter. Im going to throw some lists together and see what I can make stick.

Since Sisters are Imperials, they can just ally in a tax free Conclave and cast on a 2+ for as much psychic shenanigans as they like. Easy access to Hit & Run with Saint Celestine too.

 Drasius wrote:

Table wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I just do two 5-man teams with Melta/Combi-Melta, and ideally squeeze Dirge Casters onto the Rhinos, then go down the Bike&Spawn route. If I wanted to do the "rhinospam" route, I'll do Chosen/Havocs with 2 Specials each, but then I might as well be playing Sisters. Instead, I'm doing double termicide/double helbrutes.

But you dont get the psychic shenanigans that CSM provides with sisters. But I digress. Thank you to all for your thoughts on this matter. Im going to throw some lists together and see what I can make stick.

Since Sisters are Imperials, they can just ally in a tax free Conclave and cast on a 2+ for as much psychic shenanigans as they like. Easy access to Hit & Run with Saint Celestine too.

To my knowledge, which is limited when it comes to imperial forces (very limited) I dont think imperials have access to such huge amounts of cheap warp charges that a chaos player can muster. But as I said, im close to ignorant on this subject take it as such.

They don't need such huge amounts of warpcharges. Libconclave casts on 2+ instead of 4+. Yes, it can be denied by psycher heavy armies but at the same time, you won't peril as often.

 koooaei wrote:
They don't need such huge ammounts of warpcharges. Libconclave casts on 2+ instead of 4+. Yes, it can be denied by psycher heavy armies but at the same time, you won't peril as often.

I have yet to face this unit in my group and I havent had any pick up games. Time to educate myself it seems. Thanks for the info.