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2016/11/19 22:28:25
Subject: Is there any power difference between a Daemon Primarch and a regular Daemon Prince
Right as I understand it a Daemon Prince's power is greatly governed by it's origin. A Daemon Prince can be an ascended mortal or they can be warp born.
A warp born Daemon Prince is created purely by the will of it's patron power, in the same way as Lesser and Greater Daemons are. They're made of the stuff of the warp and have always been daemons.
In contrast the Daemon Primarchs are of the second type. Mortals who have achieved daemonhood through dark apotheosis, were a chaos power has allowed their soul to be metamorphosed into a daemonic state.
Although this gives powers and skills far beyond those of mere mortals, the fact that they essentially mutated human souls limits the amount of daemonic power the hold within them.
This means a Daemon Prince that was once mortal can't reach the same level of power as a warp born Daemon Prince.
Although. Only in the last ten thousand years have there been Daemon Primarchs and their powers are largely untested.
But I think at best they'd be the same level as a warp born. After all warp born princes are a direct projection of their patron's powers, and there's nothing more powerful than a Chaos God.
(Or is there?)
2016/11/20 00:27:16
Subject: Is there any power difference between a Daemon Primarch and a regular Daemon Prince
But I think at best they'd be the same level as a warp born. After all warp born princes are a direct projection of their patron's powers, and there's nothing more powerful than a Chaos God.
(Or is there?)
Magnus could conceivably be. His native psychic power (belonging to himself and not derived from any God) was second only to the Emperor, who is literally capable of jousting with the Chaos Gods. Power him up further with warp magicks and enhancements, and frankly he's practically a power unto himself. There's a reason why when Abby came knocking with the support of all Four Gods looking to drum up his forces that Magnus told him to sling his hook and get off the planet or he'd vaporise him. He's also spent the last ten thousand years playing the Great Game for his own amusement. He's quite clearly beyond direct control of any patron.*
*and before anyone quotes Tzeentch forbidding him to kill Ahriman, it should be stated that a) Magnus was still incomplete and therefore potentially less powerful than his reunited psyche, and b) just because Tzeentch told him not to do something doesn't necessarily mean he couldn't do it, only that after the intervention he didn't do it. Considering Ahriman was his favoured son, it's not unthinkable the moment of rage/anguish passed and Magnus opted to leave him unharmed.
Magnus' Psychichic Power in life and his refusal to obay Snaanesh. is exactly why he would not have as mutch additional power if any afforded him by Tzeentch. Tzeentch is methodical and paranoid to a fault, he would never risk another Skarbrand scenario occurring. especially as it was he who turn the GreaterDaemon on Khorne in the first place.
No Tzeentch would have Magnus' power ery tightly in check, friends close enemies closer.
And if your asking why would he stay on the planet of the scorcers and play Tzeentch's game? Simple. He like all pawns of Chaos has nowhere else to go
Automatically Appended Next Post: yes I ment Tzeentch. oviously.
Automatically Appended Next Post: although he doesn't do What Snaanesh tells him either, or Khorne, nor Nurgle.
He may be the last true renegade. albeit an unwilling one.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/20 19:21:54
2016/11/21 14:05:16
Subject: Re:Is there any power difference between a Daemon Primarch and a regular Daemon Prince
Dark_Axxxe wrote: Having done some of my own research into this same subject, I'll share what I've gleaned from the fluff and lore out there
In short, Yes. The Daemon Primarchs are more powerful than their Daemon Prince counterparts.
I came to this conclusion whilst pouring through Black Library books as well as Fantasy Flight books. While reading Angel Exterminatus it occurred to me that there very few mentions of the Daemon Primarchs after Horus dies. Angron at Armageddon, Mortarion when Draigo vandalized him, Fulgrim with his dance with Gulliman, Magnus on Fenris, but rarely did any detail be thrown into these events (Except Angron at Armageddon). However it took a full brotherhood of Grey Knights to take down Angron, whereas it takes only a few Grey Knights to banish Daemon Princes without the added blessings of being representations of the greatest betrayals of the Emperor. In Pandorax Draigo converses with a Daemon Prince of Nurgle who (IMO) speaks in a subservient tone of Mortarion before Draigo singlehandedly defeats said Daemon Prince.
In the Fantasy Flight games the path to ascension is described as being a LOT of bad stuff, sacrificing populations of hive cities in bizarre rituals (Hail Slannesh!), poisoning an entire battlegroup with Nurgle's Rot (Blessings of Grandfather Nurgle go with you), turning a planet into a mutated magic infused daemon world for spellcasters (Vote for Real Change! Vote Tzeentch) or just filling a LITERAL BATTLEBARGE with skulls for the skull throne (BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD) and you MIGHT get a blessing from your patron. In the actual CSM Codex you can get to replace any model with a Daemon Prince model if you have one and get lucky which (again IMO) represents a lifetime spent in the service of Chaos and being rewarded for dirty deeds, done dirt cheap. In the CSM Codex it also says that Princehood is the highest reward that one can be granted and this appears to be true as well in the book Storm of Iron in which an Iron Warrior Warsmith is raised to Princehood.
However in the Chaos Daemons codex it states that Daemon Princes are considered of a lower caste of Daemon if they were raised to their position by way of being originally mortal. It is (from my memory) unclear on the subject of Warp Born daemon princes being considered the same way.
But in terms of strength and abilities it seems that (Angron, Magnus, and Mortarion) Daemon Primarchs are MUCH more powerful then regular Daemon as Abbadons 13th black crusade is launching with the plan for something called "The Path of Blood" or something like that in which the more destruction he causes, the more death he brings, and the wider the misery he causes is the more he can rely on the expansion of the Eye of Terror's influence. As this happens (and I can't remember where I read this) it will allow him to summon more denizens of the warp, more Daemon allies and eventually the Daemon Primarchs themselves. That seems to suggest to me that the Daemon Primarchs are more powerful.
Maybe the strength of the Prince is based on Bad Stuff You Did, or how much faith you have in your patron, or in Magnus and Fulgrims case how much time you spend bowing and scraping to the Four. Maybe it's based on how much Psk power you bring with you to the party, or dancing ability. How much sickness you spread and skulls you take, things like that. Maybe it's a point based system, but it appears that the more powerful you are before you go in also applies.
Except Lorgar. Cause he's too busy being Pious. and hasn't done anything since being turned to a Daemon Prince.
spanker.
I would say this rings true whith what liitle I know of the Daemon Primarchs (21 years and counting). However there are two points on Daemon Princes that must be considered.
When a daemon is created from the soul of a mortal how much power can that soul contain, In the case of the Daemon Primarchs it would be a lot, but they are not wholy of the warp and so they still have a limmit to how much power they can contain before they Pop Like a Pimple. A warp born entity however is made initially at least of pure warp energy and therefore has no physical or mental limitations on how large or powerful they can become.
Take Ku'gath for examle he drank some granddad's tea and almost instantly went from Nurgling to Greater Daemon. Now if Nurgle wiished he could ifuse Ku'gath with the same comparative volume of power and make him 10 or 20 times more powerful than he originally was, a lot more powerful than Mortarion could ever hope to be.
The other thing to consider is controll. any warp born entity is merely an extension of it's patron's own will and largely infnitely loyal, (Skarbrand, bad boy) and therefore can be trusted as such.
The Primarchs In cntrast are very much pushing there own agendas, and some we can be certain (Magnus, Fulgrim) Intend a coop against their masters once they have achieved vengance against the Empire. As primarchs they are leaders, kings and gods. They were never programmed to serve but for one man, and any loyalty they towards the CorpseGod has long since eroded to nothing.
Because of this free will and self belief they will never achieve the true hights os of Daemonic Power.
Think on the lessons of Be'lakor. he was given near infinite power to point he could almost stand alone against the entire Chaos Pantheon. A mistake Hey woulld not repeat with the the Primarchs.
If the question posed at the start of this thread was could the Daemon Primarchs be notably more powerful than generic Daemon Princes? The anwser would be yes alot more.
The actual question posed however was are they? And the anwer is actually no, not by mutch anyway.
The Dark Gods won't allow it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For my money Lorgar by now would be yes the strongest of the Daemon Primarchs. He has four patrons to everyone elses one (none for Peturabo, shunning most sorcery and a mistrust of daemons may come back to bite the metal men in the butt some day).
Alot of people seem to think he's week because he's never tried to kill a world himself, and that he just prays alot.
Firsly prayer goes a long way with the Dark Gods Lorgar's chapter have sigle handedly converted more words to the worship of Chaos than all the other traitor legions put together.
And secondy a mster of the game always plays second. Let your enemy place their pieces and lay their cards. Then only when you know their plans and have seen their moves do you use that knowledge to tear them apart.
After all didn't your Mummy tell you "always watch the quiet ones"?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/21 15:55:37
2016/11/26 21:25:14
Subject: Is there any power difference between a Daemon Primarch and a regular Daemon Prince
It is fact that the only way the Empire could possibly survive the incursion of the immaterium is to seal chaos within the warp. This would require the sealing of all warp tears and then utterly destroying every and all psykers and neutralizing their soul and the warp signature they cast in the warp. This would include the Emperor.
Also anytime a space marine or guards man kills someone whilst angry or hateful they empower Khorne. All the while the mortal creatures of the universe die and becomes fuel for funcide life Nurgle's power. Every act of self indulgence or sensual gr
2016/11/28 22:55:25
Subject: Is there any power difference between a Daemon Primarch and a regular Daemon Prince
Andross wrote: It is fact that the only way the Empire could possibly survive the incursion of the immaterium is to seal chaos within the warp. This would require the sealing of all warp tears and then utterly destroying every and all psykers and neutralizing their soul and the warp signature they cast in the warp. This would include the Emperor.
Also anytime a space marine or guards man kills someone whilst angry or hateful they empower Khorne. All the while the mortal creatures of the universe die and becomes fuel for funcide life Nurgle's power. Every act of self indulgence or sensual gr
To perfectly seal Chaos, any creature that has a reflect in the warp would have to be destroyed. That goes fay beyond psykers, it encompass regular humans too.
Excellent point. So if every potential vessel or gateway must be eradicated to seal away the warp, every creature excluding nulls, would have to be destroyed. Oh and killing that psyker just made Khorne even more powerful.
Chaos wins every time.
The only way to completely eradicate the presence and influence of chaos within our material dimension is to completely destroy every energy source and life form in our universe. That doesn't sound like winning to me.
Now let's just say, for arguments sake that our universe was destroyed, there is still an infinite number of dimensional realities for chaos to feed off. We're gone they still exist. That's called losing.
So yeh. You fight chaos, you lose end of story.
2016/11/29 23:41:30
Subject: Is there any power difference between a Daemon Primarch and a regular Daemon Prince
Destroying the Chaos Gods utterly (or completely negate their ability to influence this realm) would require all but nulls to be eliminated.
Making Chaos comparatively powerless (to the point that their ability to manifest or influence the material realm still remains, but is ineffectual in asserting any sort of control or power of the material realm's inhabitants) is arguably a different story: Reduce the raging storms of the warp to breezes, sprinkling of rain, and a few clouds would be nearly the victory that ever-sunny days would be, as the chance of capsizing/drowning/getting struck by lightning is reduced to effectively zero either way.
A galaxy of nothing but the Tau would probably fit that bill - with barely a candle's light of soul, the warp reflections would be only minuscule in comparison to the material realm's might.
As for the original topic, my personal headcanon is that there are three limiting factors to the might of a Warp Entity, be they Demon Prince or Greater Demon:
1. The container. Mortal containers are not "designed" to be able to contain infinity, and are rarely up to the task. Not all mortal containers will be equal in this regard - the Emperor is clearly a more suitable container for Ethereal Power than your average Imperial Commoner, and the Imperial Commoner probably outclasses the potential of even the most "gifted" Tau.
It's possible that the container may well be changed/modified in the process of becoming and remaining a Demon - like the Vampires in Anne Rice's books, the longer you're a vampire, the more perfect a vessel for its power you become.
Where a Demon Prince falls along that spectrum will be part of what defines that Prince's potential: A mortal human recently ascended is probably going to have a lot less potential than a Demon Prince Primarch or a Demon Prince that has been so for millions of years.
A Greater Demon probably has unlimited potential as a container, up to the very fullness of the Demon's God itself - if Khorn wanted, I think he could well invest every ounce of his being into a Greater Demon (diminishing himself to nothing, and thus effectively replacing himself with that favored Greater Demon - so, y'know, fat chance that's ever happening, but it certainly seems theoretically possible).
2. The Already Contained. Containers that already contain a lot, as would be the case for Primarchs (who are infused with warp power by the Emperor's machinations), wouldn't need much in the way of blessings to reach a great deal of actual potency.
A human mortal Demon Prince will need a lot more help from their God to reach the potential of a Demon Prince Primarch. Interestingly, a Greater Demon would also need a lot more help, but their status as a Greater Demon already presumes a massive amount of help from their God - if they didn't already have their potency from their God, they would be a lesser demon, not a Greater demon.
3. The Addition to be Contained. The Chaos Gods grant their blessings and favors, but they don't do so in any sort of uniform manner.
A container with less potential filled to its brim may well have more actual power than a container with far more potential but filled with only a single "drop" of blessing.
A mortal human Demon Prince that has earned more and more favor with his God could surpass a disfavored Greater Demon who was never invested with much power to begin with.
Taken all together, a Demon Prince Primarch is likely to have immense potential as a container (as close to near-perfect as it gets, given they were created with the express purpose of housing nearly-unparalleled warp power from the get-go), they will already have power they bring themselves (again, infused from the warp from the beginning - anything the Gods add on is all gravy), and all of the Demon Prince Primarchs have been in the game for quite a while (~10k years or so).
For those reasons, I'd imagine a baseline Demon Prince Primarch is probably higher than a baseline (i.e. minimally blessed/favored) Greater Demon, but is probably eclipsed by the most bless and highest-favored Greater Demons.
Given the probably pontential of a Demon Prince Primarch as a container, I'd imagine even the most blessed and highest-favored Greater Demons could theoretically be eclipsed if that Demon Primarch earns enough of a blessing - I sincerely doubt any Greater Demon is currently (or ever will be) blessed sufficiently to be outside the incredible potential a Demon Prince Primarch would have.
For most human mortal Demon Princes, I'd guess they not only start below the baseline Greater Demon's actual power, but are also limited (particularly when they are first turned) in their ability to actually compete with Greater Demons even when they fulfill their maximum in potential, especially if their vessel hasn't been "perfected" over vast amounts of time. A few mortal Demon Princes could match or exceed baseline Greater Demons, but they'd have a hard time of it, IMO.
There's a much less convoluted way to 'defeat' the Chaos Gods.
The Chaos Gods are nothing more than a gestalt reflection of the minds and souls of every living being in the galaxy (bar Blanks). Their very nature is determined by what the people of the galaxy are like.
In order to change that, all everyone needs to do is just not be horrible to each other.
Suddenly, you've got Khorne God of Honour, Tzeentch God of Intellectual Pursuit, Slaanesh God of Happiness and Nurgle God of Caring
The only reason the Chaos Gods are horrible is because everyone else is horrible too...
(I'm just imagining a radical 'kindness' cultist skipping down and putting daisies in the barrels of Astartes Boltguns, and thinking how well that would go down...)
That's not quite an accurate statement.
While the strength and influence wax and wain as mortals devotion and faith shifts, they exist regardless. Each emotion that can exist within a mortal creature has a reflection in the warp. This exists as latent psychic energy. It is this energy that can feed a warp entity giving more power the more that emotion occurs. Now this is the important bit, it feeds existing entities who's powers are aligned with said emotion or state of being.
our emotions and actions are not the catalist that births a god we merely give it the power to manifest wholy within our reality. The fall of the Eldarin Races did not create Slaanesh, it merely gave the entity enough power to break into our universe. The gods have more influance over our existance than we do over theirs.
It is the fact that they exist in multiple times and in many different dimensions simultaneously. Even if every creature that exist in all dimensions stopped worshiping them, it would only serve to make them very weak. It would not destroy them
2016/11/29 23:44:44
Subject: Is there any power difference between a Daemon Primarch and a regular Daemon Prince
Destroying the Chaos Gods utterly (or completely negate their ability to influence this realm) would require all but nulls to be eliminated.
Making Chaos comparatively powerless (to the point that their ability to manifest or influence the material realm still remains, but is ineffectual in asserting any sort of control or power of the material realm's inhabitants) is arguably a different story: Reduce the raging storms of the warp to breezes, sprinkling of rain, and a few clouds would be nearly the victory that ever-sunny days would be, as the chance of capsizing/drowning/getting struck by lightning is reduced to effectively zero either way.
A galaxy of nothing but the Tau would probably fit that bill - with barely a candle's light of soul, the warp reflections would be only minuscule in comparison to the material realm's might.
As for the original topic, my personal headcanon is that there are three limiting factors to the might of a Warp Entity, be they Demon Prince or Greater Demon:
1. The container. Mortal containers are not "designed" to be able to contain infinity, and are rarely up to the task. Not all mortal containers will be equal in this regard - the Emperor is clearly a more suitable container for Ethereal Power than your average Imperial Commoner, and the Imperial Commoner probably outclasses the potential of even the most "gifted" Tau.
It's possible that the container may well be changed/modified in the process of becoming and remaining a Demon - like the Vampires in Anne Rice's books, the longer you're a vampire, the more perfect a vessel for its power you become.
Where a Demon Prince falls along that spectrum will be part of what defines that Prince's potential: A mortal human recently ascended is probably going to have a lot less potential than a Demon Prince Primarch or a Demon Prince that has been so for millions of years.
A Greater Demon probably has unlimited potential as a container, up to the very fullness of the Demon's God itself - if Khorn wanted, I think he could well invest every ounce of his being into a Greater Demon (diminishing himself to nothing, and thus effectively replacing himself with that favored Greater Demon - so, y'know, fat chance that's ever happening, but it certainly seems theoretically possible).
2. The Already Contained. Containers that already contain a lot, as would be the case for Primarchs (who are infused with warp power by the Emperor's machinations), wouldn't need much in the way of blessings to reach a great deal of actual potency.
A human mortal Demon Prince will need a lot more help from their God to reach the potential of a Demon Prince Primarch. Interestingly, a Greater Demon would also need a lot more help, but their status as a Greater Demon already presumes a massive amount of help from their God - if they didn't already have their potency from their God, they would be a lesser demon, not a Greater demon.
3. The Addition to be Contained. The Chaos Gods grant their blessings and favors, but they don't do so in any sort of uniform manner.
A container with less potential filled to its brim may well have more actual power than a container with far more potential but filled with only a single "drop" of blessing.
A mortal human Demon Prince that has earned more and more favor with his God could surpass a disfavored Greater Demon who was never invested with much power to begin with.
Taken all together, a Demon Prince Primarch is likely to have immense potential as a container (as close to near-perfect as it gets, given they were created with the express purpose of housing nearly-unparalleled warp power from the get-go), they will already have power they bring themselves (again, infused from the warp from the beginning - anything the Gods add on is all gravy), and all of the Demon Prince Primarchs have been in the game for quite a while (~10k years or so).
For those reasons, I'd imagine a baseline Demon Prince Primarch is probably higher than a baseline (i.e. minimally blessed/favored) Greater Demon, but is probably eclipsed by the most bless and highest-favored Greater Demons.
Given the probably pontential of a Demon Prince Primarch as a container, I'd imagine even the most blessed and highest-favored Greater Demons could theoretically be eclipsed if that Demon Primarch earns enough of a blessing - I sincerely doubt any Greater Demon is currently (or ever will be) blessed sufficiently to be outside the incredible potential a Demon Prince Primarch would have.
For most human mortal Demon Princes, I'd guess they not only start below the baseline Greater Demon's actual power, but are also limited (particularly when they are first turned) in their ability to actually compete with Greater Demons even when they fulfill their maximum in potential, especially if their vessel hasn't been "perfected" over vast amounts of time. A few mortal Demon Princes could match or exceed baseline Greater Demons, but they'd have a hard time of it, IMO.
There's a much less convoluted way to 'defeat' the Chaos Gods.
The Chaos Gods are nothing more than a gestalt reflection of the minds and souls of every living being in the galaxy (bar Blanks). Their very nature is determined by what the people of the galaxy are like.
In order to change that, all everyone needs to do is just not be horrible to each other.
Suddenly, you've got Khorne God of Honour, Tzeentch God of Intellectual Pursuit, Slaanesh God of Happiness and Nurgle God of Caring
The only reason the Chaos Gods are horrible is because everyone else is horrible too...
(I'm just imagining a radical 'kindness' cultist skipping down and putting daisies in the barrels of Astartes Boltguns, and thinking how well that would go down...)
That's not quite an accurate statement.
While the strength and influence wax and wain as mortals devotion and faith shifts, they exist regardless. Each emotion that can exist within a mortal creature has a reflection in the warp. This exists as latent psychic energy. It is this energy that can feed a warp entity giving more power the more that emotion occurs. Now this is the important bit, it feeds existing entities who's powers are aligned with said emotion or state of being.
our emotions and actions are not the catalist that births a god we merely give it the power to manifest wholy within our reality. The fall of the Eldarin Races did not create Slaanesh, it merely gave the entity enough power to break into our universe. The gods have more influance over our existance than we do over theirs.
It is the fact that they exist in multiple times and in many different dimensions simultaneously. Even if every creature that exist in all dimensions stopped worshiping them, it would only serve to make them very weak. It would not destroy them
2016/11/30 00:35:39
Subject: Is there any power difference between a Daemon Primarch and a regular Daemon Prince
Andross wrote: It is fact that the only way the Empire could possibly survive the incursion of the immaterium is to seal chaos within the warp. This would require the sealing of all warp tears and then utterly destroying every and all psykers and neutralizing their soul and the warp signature they cast in the warp. This would include the Emperor.
Also anytime a space marine or guards man kills someone whilst angry or hateful they empower Khorne. All the while the mortal creatures of the universe die and becomes fuel for funcide life Nurgle's power. Every act of self indulgence or sensual gr
To perfectly seal Chaos, any creature that has a reflect in the warp would have to be destroyed. That goes fay beyond psykers, it encompass regular humans too.
Excellent point. So if every potential vessel or gateway must be eradicated to seal away the warp, every creature excluding nulls, would have to be destroyed. Oh and killing that psyker just made Khorne even more powerful.
Chaos wins every time.
The only way to completely eradicate the presence and influence of chaos within our material dimension is to completely destroy every energy source and life form in our universe. That doesn't sound like winning to me.
Now let's just say, for arguments sake that our universe was destroyed, there is still an infinite number of dimensional realities for chaos to feed off. We're gone they still exist. That's called losing.
So yeh. You fight chaos, you lose end of story.
Well for the sake of argument, we don't know if the Warp/Chaos "extends" beyond the galaxy.
We know absolutely that the Warp exsists beyond the 40k galaxy. For a start there's the reast of the rest of the material universe. Planets and stars beyond counting stretching far beyond the galactic rim, we're still in the same dimension and your argument's already disproven.
Then there is Warhammer Fantasy, Age of Sigmar and the realm gates. Many different dimensions existing at different times, all influanced by and feading the ruinouse powers.
how many people have asked "Are these the same ruinouse powers that exist in fantasy?" and we've always been given the same answer "Same gods, different dimension, different time"
The gods of chaos exist regardless of what is happening around them. They simply become more powerful when the hearts and minds of mortals are more likened to their own.
2016/12/01 01:20:32
Subject: Is there any power difference between a Daemon Primarch and a regular Daemon Prince
The Deamon Primarchs are going to be portrayed and certainly power leveled above standard the standard deamon princes, at least in game.
What I've read of Magnus' stats makes him a game breaker. I doubt I'll use him mutch. Maybe now and then in Apocalypse and Escalation but otherwise no one I know has a reply to him.
I Have a Chaos Titan Legion. that has a hard time finding fights. I have to take on three or fore people at a time for a fair fight.
Ive used all the models separately and in smaller formations such as maniples and fallen households.
The biggest kill for "Arcane Hate" my Warlord in an Ultra Marines Thunderhawk which would have meant gloating rights for a month. However the damned thing crashed into him on the way down and did some substantial damage.
I dont get it I dont think I've ever scored a devastating hit with a destroyer weapon against a super heavy or gargantuan, only smaller things that would have been annihilated anyway. How's that frick'n possible?
