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 Andross wrote:
It is fact that the only way the Empire could possibly survive the incursion of the immaterium is to seal chaos within the warp. This would require the sealing of all warp tears and then utterly destroying every and all psykers and neutralizing their soul and the warp signature they cast in the warp. This would include the Emperor.

Also anytime a space marine or guards man kills someone whilst angry or hateful they empower Khorne. All the while the mortal creatures of the universe die and becomes fuel for funcide life Nurgle's power. Every act of self indulgence or sensual gr

To perfectly seal Chaos, any creature that has a reflect in the warp would have to be destroyed. That goes fay beyond psykers, it encompass regular humans too.

Engrenages wrote:

 Andross wrote:
It is fact that the only way the Empire could possibly survive the incursion of the immaterium is to seal chaos within the warp. This would require the sealing of all warp tears and then utterly destroying every and all psykers and neutralizing their soul and the warp signature they cast in the warp. This would include the Emperor.

Also anytime a space marine or guards man kills someone whilst angry or hateful they empower Khorne. All the while the mortal creatures of the universe die and becomes fuel for funcide life Nurgle's power. Every act of self indulgence or sensual gr

To perfectly seal Chaos, any creature that has a reflect in the warp would have to be destroyed. That goes fay beyond psykers, it encompass regular humans too.

Excellent point. So if every potential vessel or gateway must be eradicated to seal away the warp, every creature excluding nulls, would have to be destroyed. Oh and killing that psyker just made Khorne even more powerful.

Chaos wins every time.

The only way to completely eradicate the presence and influence of chaos within our material dimension is to completely destroy every energy source and life form in our universe. That doesn't sound like winning to me.

Now let's just say, for arguments sake that our universe was destroyed, there is still an infinite number of dimensional realities for chaos to feed off. We're gone they still exist. That's called losing.

So yeh. You fight chaos, you lose end of story.

 Andross wrote:

Engrenages wrote:

 Andross wrote:
It is fact that the only way the Empire could possibly survive the incursion of the immaterium is to seal chaos within the warp. This would require the sealing of all warp tears and then utterly destroying every and all psykers and neutralizing their soul and the warp signature they cast in the warp. This would include the Emperor.

Also anytime a space marine or guards man kills someone whilst angry or hateful they empower Khorne. All the while the mortal creatures of the universe die and becomes fuel for funcide life Nurgle's power. Every act of self indulgence or sensual gr

To perfectly seal Chaos, any creature that has a reflect in the warp would have to be destroyed. That goes fay beyond psykers, it encompass regular humans too.

Excellent point. So if every potential vessel or gateway must be eradicated to seal away the warp, every creature excluding nulls, would have to be destroyed. Oh and killing that psyker just made Khorne even more powerful.

Chaos wins every time.

The only way to completely eradicate the presence and influence of chaos within our material dimension is to completely destroy every energy source and life form in our universe. That doesn't sound like winning to me.

Now let's just say, for arguments sake that our universe was destroyed, there is still an infinite number of dimensional realities for chaos to feed off. We're gone they still exist. That's called losing.

So yeh. You fight chaos, you lose end of story.

Well for the sake of argument, we don't know if the Warp/Chaos "extends" beyond the galaxy.

Destroying the Chaos Gods utterly (or completely negate their ability to influence this realm) would require all but nulls to be eliminated.

Making Chaos comparatively powerless (to the point that their ability to manifest or influence the material realm still remains, but is ineffectual in asserting any sort of control or power of the material realm's inhabitants) is arguably a different story: Reduce the raging storms of the warp to breezes, sprinkling of rain, and a few clouds would be nearly the victory that ever-sunny days would be, as the chance of capsizing/drowning/getting struck by lightning is reduced to effectively zero either way.

A galaxy of nothing but the Tau would probably fit that bill - with barely a candle's light of soul, the warp reflections would be only minuscule in comparison to the material realm's might.



As for the original topic, my personal headcanon is that there are three limiting factors to the might of a Warp Entity, be they Demon Prince or Greater Demon:

1. The container. Mortal containers are not "designed" to be able to contain infinity, and are rarely up to the task. Not all mortal containers will be equal in this regard - the Emperor is clearly a more suitable container for Ethereal Power than your average Imperial Commoner, and the Imperial Commoner probably outclasses the potential of even the most "gifted" Tau.

It's possible that the container may well be changed/modified in the process of becoming and remaining a Demon - like the Vampires in Anne Rice's books, the longer you're a vampire, the more perfect a vessel for its power you become.

Where a Demon Prince falls along that spectrum will be part of what defines that Prince's potential: A mortal human recently ascended is probably going to have a lot less potential than a Demon Prince Primarch or a Demon Prince that has been so for millions of years.

A Greater Demon probably has unlimited potential as a container, up to the very fullness of the Demon's God itself - if Khorn wanted, I think he could well invest every ounce of his being into a Greater Demon (diminishing himself to nothing, and thus effectively replacing himself with that favored Greater Demon - so, y'know, fat chance that's ever happening, but it certainly seems theoretically possible).

2. The Already Contained. Containers that already contain a lot, as would be the case for Primarchs (who are infused with warp power by the Emperor's machinations), wouldn't need much in the way of blessings to reach a great deal of actual potency.

A human mortal Demon Prince will need a lot more help from their God to reach the potential of a Demon Prince Primarch. Interestingly, a Greater Demon would also need a lot more help, but their status as a Greater Demon already presumes a massive amount of help from their God - if they didn't already have their potency from their God, they would be a lesser demon, not a Greater demon.

3. The Addition to be Contained. The Chaos Gods grant their blessings and favors, but they don't do so in any sort of uniform manner.

A container with less potential filled to its brim may well have more actual power than a container with far more potential but filled with only a single "drop" of blessing.

A mortal human Demon Prince that has earned more and more favor with his God could surpass a disfavored Greater Demon who was never invested with much power to begin with.



Taken all together, a Demon Prince Primarch is likely to have immense potential as a container (as close to near-perfect as it gets, given they were created with the express purpose of housing nearly-unparalleled warp power from the get-go), they will already have power they bring themselves (again, infused from the warp from the beginning - anything the Gods add on is all gravy), and all of the Demon Prince Primarchs have been in the game for quite a while (~10k years or so).

For those reasons, I'd imagine a baseline Demon Prince Primarch is probably higher than a baseline (i.e. minimally blessed/favored) Greater Demon, but is probably eclipsed by the most bless and highest-favored Greater Demons.

Given the probably pontential of a Demon Prince Primarch as a container, I'd imagine even the most blessed and highest-favored Greater Demons could theoretically be eclipsed if that Demon Primarch earns enough of a blessing - I sincerely doubt any Greater Demon is currently (or ever will be) blessed sufficiently to be outside the incredible potential a Demon Prince Primarch would have.

For most human mortal Demon Princes, I'd guess they not only start below the baseline Greater Demon's actual power, but are also limited (particularly when they are first turned) in their ability to actually compete with Greater Demons even when they fulfill their maximum in potential, especially if their vessel hasn't been "perfected" over vast amounts of time. A few mortal Demon Princes could match or exceed baseline Greater Demons, but they'd have a hard time of it, IMO.

The Emperor's plan is to protect humanity during their evolution into a psychic species which is not predated on by chaos.

Not sure how he hopes that to work really.

 Exergy wrote:

LightKing wrote:
Or are all distinctions destroyed..... do the 6 Daemon Primarchs have any power advantage over a regular Daemon Prince? or are they all equal in power?

There is a very wide range of Daemon Princes. Some are comparatively weak while others are very strong. The Daemonic Primarchs fall somewhere along the list.

Angron is one of the most powerful beings in the 40k setting.
Who knows how powerful Lorgar is in 40k, he hasnt done anything but read in 10,000 years.

Lorgar is a very powerful reader. Only Magnus comes close.

Magnus is an interesting one, as it seems that he sharded himself during the heresy, and its also seems (so far) that he made himself a Deamon Prince, not Tzeench, Tzeench just owns his soul, or a part of it at least.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

Spoiler:

Destroying the Chaos Gods utterly (or completely negate their ability to influence this realm) would require all but nulls to be eliminated.

Making Chaos comparatively powerless (to the point that their ability to manifest or influence the material realm still remains, but is ineffectual in asserting any sort of control or power of the material realm's inhabitants) is arguably a different story: Reduce the raging storms of the warp to breezes, sprinkling of rain, and a few clouds would be nearly the victory that ever-sunny days would be, as the chance of capsizing/drowning/getting struck by lightning is reduced to effectively zero either way.

A galaxy of nothing but the Tau would probably fit that bill - with barely a candle's light of soul, the warp reflections would be only minuscule in comparison to the material realm's might.



As for the original topic, my personal headcanon is that there are three limiting factors to the might of a Warp Entity, be they Demon Prince or Greater Demon:

1. The container. Mortal containers are not "designed" to be able to contain infinity, and are rarely up to the task. Not all mortal containers will be equal in this regard - the Emperor is clearly a more suitable container for Ethereal Power than your average Imperial Commoner, and the Imperial Commoner probably outclasses the potential of even the most "gifted" Tau.

It's possible that the container may well be changed/modified in the process of becoming and remaining a Demon - like the Vampires in Anne Rice's books, the longer you're a vampire, the more perfect a vessel for its power you become.

Where a Demon Prince falls along that spectrum will be part of what defines that Prince's potential: A mortal human recently ascended is probably going to have a lot less potential than a Demon Prince Primarch or a Demon Prince that has been so for millions of years.

A Greater Demon probably has unlimited potential as a container, up to the very fullness of the Demon's God itself - if Khorn wanted, I think he could well invest every ounce of his being into a Greater Demon (diminishing himself to nothing, and thus effectively replacing himself with that favored Greater Demon - so, y'know, fat chance that's ever happening, but it certainly seems theoretically possible).

2. The Already Contained. Containers that already contain a lot, as would be the case for Primarchs (who are infused with warp power by the Emperor's machinations), wouldn't need much in the way of blessings to reach a great deal of actual potency.

A human mortal Demon Prince will need a lot more help from their God to reach the potential of a Demon Prince Primarch. Interestingly, a Greater Demon would also need a lot more help, but their status as a Greater Demon already presumes a massive amount of help from their God - if they didn't already have their potency from their God, they would be a lesser demon, not a Greater demon.

3. The Addition to be Contained. The Chaos Gods grant their blessings and favors, but they don't do so in any sort of uniform manner.

A container with less potential filled to its brim may well have more actual power than a container with far more potential but filled with only a single "drop" of blessing.

A mortal human Demon Prince that has earned more and more favor with his God could surpass a disfavored Greater Demon who was never invested with much power to begin with.



Taken all together, a Demon Prince Primarch is likely to have immense potential as a container (as close to near-perfect as it gets, given they were created with the express purpose of housing nearly-unparalleled warp power from the get-go), they will already have power they bring themselves (again, infused from the warp from the beginning - anything the Gods add on is all gravy), and all of the Demon Prince Primarchs have been in the game for quite a while (~10k years or so).

For those reasons, I'd imagine a baseline Demon Prince Primarch is probably higher than a baseline (i.e. minimally blessed/favored) Greater Demon, but is probably eclipsed by the most bless and highest-favored Greater Demons.

Given the probably pontential of a Demon Prince Primarch as a container, I'd imagine even the most blessed and highest-favored Greater Demons could theoretically be eclipsed if that Demon Primarch earns enough of a blessing - I sincerely doubt any Greater Demon is currently (or ever will be) blessed sufficiently to be outside the incredible potential a Demon Prince Primarch would have.

For most human mortal Demon Princes, I'd guess they not only start below the baseline Greater Demon's actual power, but are also limited (particularly when they are first turned) in their ability to actually compete with Greater Demons even when they fulfill their maximum in potential, especially if their vessel hasn't been "perfected" over vast amounts of time. A few mortal Demon Princes could match or exceed baseline Greater Demons, but they'd have a hard time of it, IMO.

There's a much less convoluted way to 'defeat' the Chaos Gods.

The Chaos Gods are nothing more than a gestalt reflection of the minds and souls of every living being in the galaxy (bar Blanks). Their very nature is determined by what the people of the galaxy are like.

In order to change that, all everyone needs to do is just not be horrible to each other.

Suddenly, you've got Khorne God of Honour, Tzeentch God of Intellectual Pursuit, Slaanesh God of Happiness and Nurgle God of Caring

The only reason the Chaos Gods are horrible is because everyone else is horrible too...

(I'm just imagining a radical 'kindness' cultist skipping down and putting daisies in the barrels of Astartes Boltguns, and thinking how well that would go down...)

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

Spoiler:

Destroying the Chaos Gods utterly (or completely negate their ability to influence this realm) would require all but nulls to be eliminated.

Making Chaos comparatively powerless (to the point that their ability to manifest or influence the material realm still remains, but is ineffectual in asserting any sort of control or power of the material realm's inhabitants) is arguably a different story: Reduce the raging storms of the warp to breezes, sprinkling of rain, and a few clouds would be nearly the victory that ever-sunny days would be, as the chance of capsizing/drowning/getting struck by lightning is reduced to effectively zero either way.

A galaxy of nothing but the Tau would probably fit that bill - with barely a candle's light of soul, the warp reflections would be only minuscule in comparison to the material realm's might.



As for the original topic, my personal headcanon is that there are three limiting factors to the might of a Warp Entity, be they Demon Prince or Greater Demon:

1. The container. Mortal containers are not "designed" to be able to contain infinity, and are rarely up to the task. Not all mortal containers will be equal in this regard - the Emperor is clearly a more suitable container for Ethereal Power than your average Imperial Commoner, and the Imperial Commoner probably outclasses the potential of even the most "gifted" Tau.

It's possible that the container may well be changed/modified in the process of becoming and remaining a Demon - like the Vampires in Anne Rice's books, the longer you're a vampire, the more perfect a vessel for its power you become.

Where a Demon Prince falls along that spectrum will be part of what defines that Prince's potential: A mortal human recently ascended is probably going to have a lot less potential than a Demon Prince Primarch or a Demon Prince that has been so for millions of years.

A Greater Demon probably has unlimited potential as a container, up to the very fullness of the Demon's God itself - if Khorn wanted, I think he could well invest every ounce of his being into a Greater Demon (diminishing himself to nothing, and thus effectively replacing himself with that favored Greater Demon - so, y'know, fat chance that's ever happening, but it certainly seems theoretically possible).

2. The Already Contained. Containers that already contain a lot, as would be the case for Primarchs (who are infused with warp power by the Emperor's machinations), wouldn't need much in the way of blessings to reach a great deal of actual potency.

A human mortal Demon Prince will need a lot more help from their God to reach the potential of a Demon Prince Primarch. Interestingly, a Greater Demon would also need a lot more help, but their status as a Greater Demon already presumes a massive amount of help from their God - if they didn't already have their potency from their God, they would be a lesser demon, not a Greater demon.

3. The Addition to be Contained. The Chaos Gods grant their blessings and favors, but they don't do so in any sort of uniform manner.

A container with less potential filled to its brim may well have more actual power than a container with far more potential but filled with only a single "drop" of blessing.

A mortal human Demon Prince that has earned more and more favor with his God could surpass a disfavored Greater Demon who was never invested with much power to begin with.



Taken all together, a Demon Prince Primarch is likely to have immense potential as a container (as close to near-perfect as it gets, given they were created with the express purpose of housing nearly-unparalleled warp power from the get-go), they will already have power they bring themselves (again, infused from the warp from the beginning - anything the Gods add on is all gravy), and all of the Demon Prince Primarchs have been in the game for quite a while (~10k years or so).

For those reasons, I'd imagine a baseline Demon Prince Primarch is probably higher than a baseline (i.e. minimally blessed/favored) Greater Demon, but is probably eclipsed by the most bless and highest-favored Greater Demons.

Given the probably pontential of a Demon Prince Primarch as a container, I'd imagine even the most blessed and highest-favored Greater Demons could theoretically be eclipsed if that Demon Primarch earns enough of a blessing - I sincerely doubt any Greater Demon is currently (or ever will be) blessed sufficiently to be outside the incredible potential a Demon Prince Primarch would have.

For most human mortal Demon Princes, I'd guess they not only start below the baseline Greater Demon's actual power, but are also limited (particularly when they are first turned) in their ability to actually compete with Greater Demons even when they fulfill their maximum in potential, especially if their vessel hasn't been "perfected" over vast amounts of time. A few mortal Demon Princes could match or exceed baseline Greater Demons, but they'd have a hard time of it, IMO.

There's a much less convoluted way to 'defeat' the Chaos Gods.

The Chaos Gods are nothing more than a gestalt reflection of the minds and souls of every living being in the galaxy (bar Blanks). Their very nature is determined by what the people of the galaxy are like.

In order to change that, all everyone needs to do is just not be horrible to each other.

Suddenly, you've got Khorne God of Honour, Tzeentch God of Intellectual Pursuit, Slaanesh God of Happiness and Nurgle God of Caring

The only reason the Chaos Gods are horrible is because everyone else is horrible too...

(I'm just imagining a radical 'kindness' cultist skipping down and putting daisies in the barrels of Astartes Boltguns, and thinking how well that would go down...)

Less convoluted, but no offense... I find it far more likely that the Tau Empire will defeat the combined forces of the Imperium, the Orks, the Eldar, the Necrons, the Tyranids, and everyone else than everyone being nice to each other in the 41st millennium.

At least now we know the origins and end goal of the Pretty Marines. They're just trying to make the world a better place, for you and me!

Yeah, I think it'd be more likely for the Emperor to turn out to be Gork/Mork and humanity was just created to give the Orks a good scrap than for every bitterly xenophobic race to stop killing each other

Hell, even if every xeno and chaos faction started sending each other christmas cards instead of bombs, there's probably enough suffering within the Imperium due to sheer ignorance to maintain the Chaos Gods...

Engrenages wrote:

 Andross wrote:

Engrenages wrote:

 Andross wrote:
It is fact that the only way the Empire could possibly survive the incursion of the immaterium is to seal chaos within the warp. This would require the sealing of all warp tears and then utterly destroying every and all psykers and neutralizing their soul and the warp signature they cast in the warp. This would include the Emperor.

Also anytime a space marine or guards man kills someone whilst angry or hateful they empower Khorne. All the while the mortal creatures of the universe die and becomes fuel for funcide life Nurgle's power. Every act of self indulgence or sensual gr

To perfectly seal Chaos, any creature that has a reflect in the warp would have to be destroyed. That goes fay beyond psykers, it encompass regular humans too.

Excellent point. So if every potential vessel or gateway must be eradicated to seal away the warp, every creature excluding nulls, would have to be destroyed. Oh and killing that psyker just made Khorne even more powerful.

Chaos wins every time.

The only way to completely eradicate the presence and influence of chaos within our material dimension is to completely destroy every energy source and life form in our universe. That doesn't sound like winning to me.

Now let's just say, for arguments sake that our universe was destroyed, there is still an infinite number of dimensional realities for chaos to feed off. We're gone they still exist. That's called losing.

So yeh. You fight chaos, you lose end of story.

Well for the sake of argument, we don't know if the Warp/Chaos "extends" beyond the galaxy.

That's something we do know actually, the warp touches all realities and dimensions to a greater or lesser extent, so do the chaos God's, we also know that the chaos God's have always existed, even before their births, as once born, they have always been there, and by the same definition, they have never existed and never will, that's how the warp works, it's pure potential, the primordial truth and the primordial annihilator, it's both and neither .... just like the chaos God's, both good and evil, builders and destroyers.

 Formosa wrote:

Engrenages wrote:

 Andross wrote:

Engrenages wrote:

 Andross wrote:
It is fact that the only way the Empire could possibly survive the incursion of the immaterium is to seal chaos within the warp. This would require the sealing of all warp tears and then utterly destroying every and all psykers and neutralizing their soul and the warp signature they cast in the warp. This would include the Emperor.

Also anytime a space marine or guards man kills someone whilst angry or hateful they empower Khorne. All the while the mortal creatures of the universe die and becomes fuel for funcide life Nurgle's power. Every act of self indulgence or sensual gr

To perfectly seal Chaos, any creature that has a reflect in the warp would have to be destroyed. That goes fay beyond psykers, it encompass regular humans too.

Excellent point. So if every potential vessel or gateway must be eradicated to seal away the warp, every creature excluding nulls, would have to be destroyed. Oh and killing that psyker just made Khorne even more powerful.

Chaos wins every time.

The only way to completely eradicate the presence and influence of chaos within our material dimension is to completely destroy every energy source and life form in our universe. That doesn't sound like winning to me.

Now let's just say, for arguments sake that our universe was destroyed, there is still an infinite number of dimensional realities for chaos to feed off. We're gone they still exist. That's called losing.

So yeh. You fight chaos, you lose end of story.

Well for the sake of argument, we don't know if the Warp/Chaos "extends" beyond the galaxy.

That's something we do know actually, the warp touches all realities and dimensions to a greater or lesser extent, so do the chaos God's, we also know that the chaos God's have always existed, even before their births, as once born, they have always been there, and by the same definition, they have never existed and never will, that's how the warp works, it's pure potential, the primordial truth and the primordial annihilator, it's both and neither .... just like the chaos God's, both good and evil, builders and destroyers.

I never really bought that idea. From the materium's point of view there was a time before nurgle/khorne/slaanesh etc. There is no evidence of them influencing activities before their creation and there are definite events that created them. They certainly do exist otherwise how would they be able to affect the materium in such a direct fashion?

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

Spoiler:

Destroying the Chaos Gods utterly (or completely negate their ability to influence this realm) would require all but nulls to be eliminated.

Making Chaos comparatively powerless (to the point that their ability to manifest or influence the material realm still remains, but is ineffectual in asserting any sort of control or power of the material realm's inhabitants) is arguably a different story: Reduce the raging storms of the warp to breezes, sprinkling of rain, and a few clouds would be nearly the victory that ever-sunny days would be, as the chance of capsizing/drowning/getting struck by lightning is reduced to effectively zero either way.

A galaxy of nothing but the Tau would probably fit that bill - with barely a candle's light of soul, the warp reflections would be only minuscule in comparison to the material realm's might.



As for the original topic, my personal headcanon is that there are three limiting factors to the might of a Warp Entity, be they Demon Prince or Greater Demon:

1. The container. Mortal containers are not "designed" to be able to contain infinity, and are rarely up to the task. Not all mortal containers will be equal in this regard - the Emperor is clearly a more suitable container for Ethereal Power than your average Imperial Commoner, and the Imperial Commoner probably outclasses the potential of even the most "gifted" Tau.

It's possible that the container may well be changed/modified in the process of becoming and remaining a Demon - like the Vampires in Anne Rice's books, the longer you're a vampire, the more perfect a vessel for its power you become.

Where a Demon Prince falls along that spectrum will be part of what defines that Prince's potential: A mortal human recently ascended is probably going to have a lot less potential than a Demon Prince Primarch or a Demon Prince that has been so for millions of years.

A Greater Demon probably has unlimited potential as a container, up to the very fullness of the Demon's God itself - if Khorn wanted, I think he could well invest every ounce of his being into a Greater Demon (diminishing himself to nothing, and thus effectively replacing himself with that favored Greater Demon - so, y'know, fat chance that's ever happening, but it certainly seems theoretically possible).

2. The Already Contained. Containers that already contain a lot, as would be the case for Primarchs (who are infused with warp power by the Emperor's machinations), wouldn't need much in the way of blessings to reach a great deal of actual potency.

A human mortal Demon Prince will need a lot more help from their God to reach the potential of a Demon Prince Primarch. Interestingly, a Greater Demon would also need a lot more help, but their status as a Greater Demon already presumes a massive amount of help from their God - if they didn't already have their potency from their God, they would be a lesser demon, not a Greater demon.

3. The Addition to be Contained. The Chaos Gods grant their blessings and favors, but they don't do so in any sort of uniform manner.

A container with less potential filled to its brim may well have more actual power than a container with far more potential but filled with only a single "drop" of blessing.

A mortal human Demon Prince that has earned more and more favor with his God could surpass a disfavored Greater Demon who was never invested with much power to begin with.



Taken all together, a Demon Prince Primarch is likely to have immense potential as a container (as close to near-perfect as it gets, given they were created with the express purpose of housing nearly-unparalleled warp power from the get-go), they will already have power they bring themselves (again, infused from the warp from the beginning - anything the Gods add on is all gravy), and all of the Demon Prince Primarchs have been in the game for quite a while (~10k years or so).

For those reasons, I'd imagine a baseline Demon Prince Primarch is probably higher than a baseline (i.e. minimally blessed/favored) Greater Demon, but is probably eclipsed by the most bless and highest-favored Greater Demons.

Given the probably pontential of a Demon Prince Primarch as a container, I'd imagine even the most blessed and highest-favored Greater Demons could theoretically be eclipsed if that Demon Primarch earns enough of a blessing - I sincerely doubt any Greater Demon is currently (or ever will be) blessed sufficiently to be outside the incredible potential a Demon Prince Primarch would have.

For most human mortal Demon Princes, I'd guess they not only start below the baseline Greater Demon's actual power, but are also limited (particularly when they are first turned) in their ability to actually compete with Greater Demons even when they fulfill their maximum in potential, especially if their vessel hasn't been "perfected" over vast amounts of time. A few mortal Demon Princes could match or exceed baseline Greater Demons, but they'd have a hard time of it, IMO.

There's a much less convoluted way to 'defeat' the Chaos Gods.

The Chaos Gods are nothing more than a gestalt reflection of the minds and souls of every living being in the galaxy (bar Blanks). Their very nature is determined by what the people of the galaxy are like.

In order to change that, all everyone needs to do is just not be horrible to each other.

Suddenly, you've got Khorne God of Honour, Tzeentch God of Intellectual Pursuit, Slaanesh God of Happiness and Nurgle God of Caring

The only reason the Chaos Gods are horrible is because everyone else is horrible too...

(I'm just imagining a radical 'kindness' cultist skipping down and putting daisies in the barrels of Astartes Boltguns, and thinking how well that would go down...)

That's not quite an accurate statement.

While the strength and influence wax and wain as mortals devotion and faith shifts, they exist regardless. Each emotion that can exist within a mortal creature has a reflection in the warp. This exists as latent psychic energy. It is this energy that can feed a warp entity giving more power the more that emotion occurs. Now this is the important bit, it feeds existing entities who's powers are aligned with said emotion or state of being.

our emotions and actions are not the catalist that births a god we merely give it the power to manifest wholy within our reality. The fall of the Eldarin Races did not create Slaanesh, it merely gave the entity enough power to break into our universe. The gods have more influance over our existance than we do over theirs.

It is the fact that they exist in multiple times and in many different dimensions simultaneously. Even if every creature that exist in all dimensions stopped worshiping them, it would only serve to make them very weak. It would not destroy them

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

Spoiler:

Destroying the Chaos Gods utterly (or completely negate their ability to influence this realm) would require all but nulls to be eliminated.

Making Chaos comparatively powerless (to the point that their ability to manifest or influence the material realm still remains, but is ineffectual in asserting any sort of control or power of the material realm's inhabitants) is arguably a different story: Reduce the raging storms of the warp to breezes, sprinkling of rain, and a few clouds would be nearly the victory that ever-sunny days would be, as the chance of capsizing/drowning/getting struck by lightning is reduced to effectively zero either way.

A galaxy of nothing but the Tau would probably fit that bill - with barely a candle's light of soul, the warp reflections would be only minuscule in comparison to the material realm's might.



As for the original topic, my personal headcanon is that there are three limiting factors to the might of a Warp Entity, be they Demon Prince or Greater Demon:

1. The container. Mortal containers are not "designed" to be able to contain infinity, and are rarely up to the task. Not all mortal containers will be equal in this regard - the Emperor is clearly a more suitable container for Ethereal Power than your average Imperial Commoner, and the Imperial Commoner probably outclasses the potential of even the most "gifted" Tau.

It's possible that the container may well be changed/modified in the process of becoming and remaining a Demon - like the Vampires in Anne Rice's books, the longer you're a vampire, the more perfect a vessel for its power you become.

Where a Demon Prince falls along that spectrum will be part of what defines that Prince's potential: A mortal human recently ascended is probably going to have a lot less potential than a Demon Prince Primarch or a Demon Prince that has been so for millions of years.

A Greater Demon probably has unlimited potential as a container, up to the very fullness of the Demon's God itself - if Khorn wanted, I think he could well invest every ounce of his being into a Greater Demon (diminishing himself to nothing, and thus effectively replacing himself with that favored Greater Demon - so, y'know, fat chance that's ever happening, but it certainly seems theoretically possible).

2. The Already Contained. Containers that already contain a lot, as would be the case for Primarchs (who are infused with warp power by the Emperor's machinations), wouldn't need much in the way of blessings to reach a great deal of actual potency.

A human mortal Demon Prince will need a lot more help from their God to reach the potential of a Demon Prince Primarch. Interestingly, a Greater Demon would also need a lot more help, but their status as a Greater Demon already presumes a massive amount of help from their God - if they didn't already have their potency from their God, they would be a lesser demon, not a Greater demon.

3. The Addition to be Contained. The Chaos Gods grant their blessings and favors, but they don't do so in any sort of uniform manner.

A container with less potential filled to its brim may well have more actual power than a container with far more potential but filled with only a single "drop" of blessing.

A mortal human Demon Prince that has earned more and more favor with his God could surpass a disfavored Greater Demon who was never invested with much power to begin with.



Taken all together, a Demon Prince Primarch is likely to have immense potential as a container (as close to near-perfect as it gets, given they were created with the express purpose of housing nearly-unparalleled warp power from the get-go), they will already have power they bring themselves (again, infused from the warp from the beginning - anything the Gods add on is all gravy), and all of the Demon Prince Primarchs have been in the game for quite a while (~10k years or so).

For those reasons, I'd imagine a baseline Demon Prince Primarch is probably higher than a baseline (i.e. minimally blessed/favored) Greater Demon, but is probably eclipsed by the most bless and highest-favored Greater Demons.

Given the probably pontential of a Demon Prince Primarch as a container, I'd imagine even the most blessed and highest-favored Greater Demons could theoretically be eclipsed if that Demon Primarch earns enough of a blessing - I sincerely doubt any Greater Demon is currently (or ever will be) blessed sufficiently to be outside the incredible potential a Demon Prince Primarch would have.

For most human mortal Demon Princes, I'd guess they not only start below the baseline Greater Demon's actual power, but are also limited (particularly when they are first turned) in their ability to actually compete with Greater Demons even when they fulfill their maximum in potential, especially if their vessel hasn't been "perfected" over vast amounts of time. A few mortal Demon Princes could match or exceed baseline Greater Demons, but they'd have a hard time of it, IMO.

There's a much less convoluted way to 'defeat' the Chaos Gods.

The Chaos Gods are nothing more than a gestalt reflection of the minds and souls of every living being in the galaxy (bar Blanks). Their very nature is determined by what the people of the galaxy are like.

In order to change that, all everyone needs to do is just not be horrible to each other.

Suddenly, you've got Khorne God of Honour, Tzeentch God of Intellectual Pursuit, Slaanesh God of Happiness and Nurgle God of Caring

The only reason the Chaos Gods are horrible is because everyone else is horrible too...

(I'm just imagining a radical 'kindness' cultist skipping down and putting daisies in the barrels of Astartes Boltguns, and thinking how well that would go down...)

That's not quite an accurate statement.

While the strength and influence wax and wain as mortals devotion and faith shifts, they exist regardless. Each emotion that can exist within a mortal creature has a reflection in the warp. This exists as latent psychic energy. It is this energy that can feed a warp entity giving more power the more that emotion occurs. Now this is the important bit, it feeds existing entities who's powers are aligned with said emotion or state of being.

our emotions and actions are not the catalist that births a god we merely give it the power to manifest wholy within our reality. The fall of the Eldarin Races did not create Slaanesh, it merely gave the entity enough power to break into our universe. The gods have more influance over our existance than we do over theirs.

It is the fact that they exist in multiple times and in many different dimensions simultaneously. Even if every creature that exist in all dimensions stopped worshiping them, it would only serve to make them very weak. It would not destroy them

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Engrenages wrote:

 Andross wrote:

Engrenages wrote:

 Andross wrote:
It is fact that the only way the Empire could possibly survive the incursion of the immaterium is to seal chaos within the warp. This would require the sealing of all warp tears and then utterly destroying every and all psykers and neutralizing their soul and the warp signature they cast in the warp. This would include the Emperor.

Also anytime a space marine or guards man kills someone whilst angry or hateful they empower Khorne. All the while the mortal creatures of the universe die and becomes fuel for funcide life Nurgle's power. Every act of self indulgence or sensual gr

To perfectly seal Chaos, any creature that has a reflect in the warp would have to be destroyed. That goes fay beyond psykers, it encompass regular humans too.

Excellent point. So if every potential vessel or gateway must be eradicated to seal away the warp, every creature excluding nulls, would have to be destroyed. Oh and killing that psyker just made Khorne even more powerful.

Chaos wins every time.

The only way to completely eradicate the presence and influence of chaos within our material dimension is to completely destroy every energy source and life form in our universe. That doesn't sound like winning to me.

Now let's just say, for arguments sake that our universe was destroyed, there is still an infinite number of dimensional realities for chaos to feed off. We're gone they still exist. That's called losing.

So yeh. You fight chaos, you lose end of story.

Well for the sake of argument, we don't know if the Warp/Chaos "extends" beyond the galaxy.

That's something we do know actually, the warp touches all realities and dimensions to a greater or lesser extent, so do the chaos God's, we also know that the chaos God's have always existed, even before their births, as once born, they have always been there, and by the same definition, they have never existed and never will, that's how the warp works, it's pure potential, the primordial truth and the primordial annihilator, it's both and neither .... just like the chaos God's, both good and evil, builders and destroyers.

I never really bought that idea. From the materium's point of view there was a time before nurgle/khorne/slaanesh etc. There is no evidence of them influencing activities before their creation and there are definite events that created them. They certainly do exist otherwise how would they be able to affect the materium in such a direct fashion?

It's because time flows in the material universe in a linear manner, the warp time just doesn't work, so the chaos God's have always been there... and never been there, maybe what we see as the birth of khorne is just the attention of that entity being drawn to our reality, did the eldar create slaanesh or was its attention being drawn the thing that started the eldar down the path to destruction and its "birth" was it simply manifesting in "our" warp....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just read andross comment, we seem to be on the same page lol

Engrenages wrote:

 Andross wrote:

Engrenages wrote:

 Andross wrote:
It is fact that the only way the Empire could possibly survive the incursion of the immaterium is to seal chaos within the warp. This would require the sealing of all warp tears and then utterly destroying every and all psykers and neutralizing their soul and the warp signature they cast in the warp. This would include the Emperor.

Also anytime a space marine or guards man kills someone whilst angry or hateful they empower Khorne. All the while the mortal creatures of the universe die and becomes fuel for funcide life Nurgle's power. Every act of self indulgence or sensual gr

To perfectly seal Chaos, any creature that has a reflect in the warp would have to be destroyed. That goes fay beyond psykers, it encompass regular humans too.

Excellent point. So if every potential vessel or gateway must be eradicated to seal away the warp, every creature excluding nulls, would have to be destroyed. Oh and killing that psyker just made Khorne even more powerful.

Chaos wins every time.

The only way to completely eradicate the presence and influence of chaos within our material dimension is to completely destroy every energy source and life form in our universe. That doesn't sound like winning to me.

Now let's just say, for arguments sake that our universe was destroyed, there is still an infinite number of dimensional realities for chaos to feed off. We're gone they still exist. That's called losing.

So yeh. You fight chaos, you lose end of story.

Well for the sake of argument, we don't know if the Warp/Chaos "extends" beyond the galaxy.

We know absolutely that the Warp exsists beyond the 40k galaxy. For a start there's the reast of the rest of the material universe. Planets and stars beyond counting stretching far beyond the galactic rim, we're still in the same dimension and your argument's already disproven.

Then there is Warhammer Fantasy, Age of Sigmar and the realm gates. Many different dimensions existing at different times, all influanced by and feading the ruinouse powers.

how many people have asked "Are these the same ruinouse powers that exist in fantasy?" and we've always been given the same answer "Same gods, different dimension, different time"

The gods of chaos exist regardless of what is happening around them. They simply become more powerful when the hearts and minds of mortals are more likened to their own.

 Andross wrote:

That's not quite an accurate statement.

While the strength and influence wax and wain as mortals devotion and faith shifts, they exist regardless. Each emotion that can exist within a mortal creature has a reflection in the warp. This exists as latent psychic energy. It is this energy that can feed a warp entity giving more power the more that emotion occurs. Now this is the important bit, it feeds existing entities who's powers are aligned with said emotion or state of being.

our emotions and actions are not the catalist that births a god we merely give it the power to manifest wholy within our reality. The fall of the Eldarin Races did not create Slaanesh, it merely gave the entity enough power to break into our universe. The gods have more influance over our existance than we do over theirs.

It is the fact that they exist in multiple times and in many different dimensions simultaneously. Even if every creature that exist in all dimensions stopped worshiping them, it would only serve to make them very weak. It would not destroy them

That's one possible interpretation of the Chaos Gods' relationship to the materium, but it's not explicitly stated to be so. It may well be true, but there's no solid evidence either way.

The explanation I was using is that it's stated that the warp gods as we know them were birthed during the War in Heaven, and formed in the image that we know due to the pain, suffering and carnage unleashed on a galactic scale during that conflict. That. and the description of the birth of Slaanesh (as a gestalt entity formed from the psychic emanations of the Eldar pleasure cults) suggests that the nature of the warp gods is affected by the nature of the material plane.

Personally, I like your explanation too (possibly better than the one above!). It's got a nice Lovecraftian feel to it, with primordial malevolent beings drawn to our reality by the minds of the living races there. Plus, due to the nature of the warp, for all we know both could be true!

 Andross wrote:

We know absolutely that the Warp exsists beyond the 40k galaxy. For a start there's the reast of the rest of the material universe. Planets and stars beyond counting stretching far beyond the galactic rim, we're still in the same dimension and your argument's already disproven.

Then there is Warhammer Fantasy, Age of Sigmar and the realm gates. Many different dimensions existing at different times, all influanced by and feading the ruinouse powers.

how many people have asked "Are these the same ruinouse powers that exist in fantasy?" and we've always been given the same answer "Same gods, different dimension, different time"

The gods of chaos exist regardless of what is happening around them. They simply become more powerful when the hearts and minds of mortals are more likened to their own.

We don't know absolutely that the warp extends beyond our galaxy. I've seen no evidence of the warp gods influencing anything beyond our current galaxy. Doesn't prove that it doesn't, but there's nothing the other way either.

The assumption that the warp extends beyond our galaxy is an assumption about the nature of the warp, and its relationship to the material plane that we don't know enough about to draw solid conclusions.

If you look at the universe as a 4-dimensional space, with the x, y, and z axes in the physical universe, and a 'w' axis (for warp!) that represents moving through dimensions. We know that the warp can move in this w axis from the plane of 40k to the plane of AoS, but we don't know its relationship to the other axes. We do know that it needs living beings with a connection to the warp to be able to influence the x/y/z axis of our physical universe. If Andromeda is actually full of a species that's psychically blank, the warp may very well not exist there.

It's my personal interpretation that the warp itself does permeate our entire universe, but given that the tides and eddies of the warp are fed by the minds of intelligent beings, its influence extends only as far as there are sufficient numbers of intelligent beings to give it power.

So, as you start to leave our galaxy, the currents of the warp start to ebb. Your ship slows as the warp itself loses potency. Eventually, you find yourself cast adrift in intergalactic space, stranded on the dead-still windless ocean of the warp, millions of light-years from the edge of our galaxy.

It would certainly explain why we haven't heard of any extra-galactic exploration missions, which you'd have expected given the timescales of the empires we've had in the 40k universe. In 60 million years, I'd have expected the Eldar to at least try. The only extra-galactic species we know if is the 'nids, and they generate their own psychic presence in the warp...

The thing is, It is said that it is because of the Old Ones that the warp became the hellhole it is today. It was originally calm, but their psychic abuse and warp-base devices created the warp tide. And IIRC the Old Ones were said to have been living in our galaxy. So it could be they only agitated a "region" of the warp, matching the milky way (but in warp-style distance and time conservation).

Engrenages wrote:
The thing is, It is said that it is because of the Old Ones that the warp became the hellhole it is today. It was originally calm, but their psychic abuse and warp-base devices created the warp tide. And IIRC the Old Ones were said to have been living in our galaxy. So it could be they only agitated a "region" of the warp, matching the milky way (but in warp-style distance and time conservation).

Agreed. That's close to the explanation that I believe is the case.

Saying that, and playing devil's advocate slightly, the warp's relation to the physical plane is strange at best. It could well be that the warp being stirred up by actions in the milky way affected the warp in the entirety of the galaxy.

For instance, if access to the 'w' dimensional axis is completely independent of your location on the x/y/z axes then you could well be accessing exactly the same 'warp' whether you're in the Milky Way or in some galaxy on the outer reaches of our universe.

However, there is some evidence that there is a relationship between location within warp space and location in the physical plane, otherwise warp travel wouldn't be possible. You can move within the warp (even if 'moving within the warp' is completely unlike moving in the materium), and reappear somewhere else in the physical plane. that would suggest that there is at least a tenuous connection between the 'w' axis and the others.

I feel that supports the idea that the warp could be a very different place in other galaxies.

What if the warp gods in the milky way are actually small fry in the grand scheme of things, and there are veritable sharks lurking out in the depths of the universe...

The crux of being a Daemon Prince is that you retain some of your individuality. The vast majority of ascended Daemon Princes are ambitious souls, lusting for more power. This doesn't stop when they ascend. Therefore if we assume that the ''highest tier'' of Daemon Princes, where we can assume Daemon Primarchs live, are all given a similar amount of power then the strongest Daemon Prince will is also the oldest.

For example Doombreed is the oldest Khornate Daemon Prince, and was essentially Ghengis Khan and N'Kari was supposedly a human actress before she ascended. Both of these are older than the big E, and I would put them on the same tier or higher than the current daemon primarchs.

The Deamon Primarchs are going to be portrayed and certainly power leveled above standard the standard deamon princes, at least in game.

What I've read of Magnus' stats makes him a game breaker. I doubt I'll use him mutch. Maybe now and then in Apocalypse and Escalation but otherwise no one I know has a reply to him.

I Have a Chaos Titan Legion. that has a hard time finding fights. I have to take on three or fore people at a time for a fair fight.

Ive used all the models separately and in smaller formations such as maniples and fallen households.

The biggest kill for "Arcane Hate" my Warlord in an Ultra Marines Thunderhawk which would have meant gloating rights for a month. However the damned thing crashed into him on the way down and did some substantial damage.

I dont get it I dont think I've ever scored a devastating hit with a destroyer weapon against a super heavy or gargantuan, only smaller things that would have been annihilated anyway. How's that frick'n possible?

Magnus ain't that scary. Point for point, Sniper Scouts, Sternguard, Skitarii Vanguard, or Wulfen will kill him dead.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
The crux of being a Daemon Prince is that you retain some of your individuality. The vast majority of ascended Daemon Princes are ambitious souls, lusting for more power. This doesn't stop when they ascend. Therefore if we assume that the ''highest tier'' of Daemon Princes, where we can assume Daemon Primarchs live, are all given a similar amount of power then the strongest Daemon Prince will is also the oldest.

For example Doombreed is the oldest Khornate Daemon Prince, and was essentially Ghengis Khan and N'Kari was supposedly a human actress before she ascended. Both of these are older than the big E, and I would put them on the same tier or higher than the current daemon primarchs.

The old fluff (the part that hasn't been retconned yet) place the Emperor's birth at 5000 BC, waaaaaay before Gengis Khan