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This is another death penalty case I have trouble with. Where is the justice in leaving someone sweating 26 years before finally getting around to executing them? After that long, they should have just switched the penalty to life without parole.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/12/07/georgia-executes-inmate-for-1990-murder-father-in-law.html

Because the death penalty is not, nor has it ever been, about justice. It's about revenge. And while I have no sympathy for the guy, the entire capital punishment system needs to go.

And hell, at 26 years in prison he'd already served the minimum sentence in Georgia for Murder in the first degree before being eligible to be up for parole, according to Wikipedia

From the article it even sounds like he may have been remorseful.

I am of the firm opinion that some people truly do deserve to die, and that it can be in society's best interest that certain people die. However I also dont trust society to make those calls without the potential for putting the wrong people to death or getting screwups like this where there is no longer anything meaningful to be gained by such an execution, and as a result, and cannot as such support the death penalty or actions like this. This is the process doing its own thing for its own sake at this point...

"About a minute after the warden left, Sallie lifted his head and looked out at the witnesses before putting his head back down, yawning and then closing his eyes and breathing deeply several times."

Not sure whether to laugh or feel deeply disturbed about that snippet.

Either way, this seems like pretty ridiculous treatment of a human being, even if they are among the lowest type of human being - a murderer. At least have the decency to kill a man quickly if you decide to sentence him to death.

The yawning is because they knock you out before they stop your heart.

Also, Vaktathi pretty much hit the nail on the head for my feelings on the subject. Though I do think we should switch away from lethal injection. Its horribly expensive, and I'm terrified of needles.

I get the process - it just sounds so eerie and unnerving. Doesn't help that I'm yawning with tiredness as I write this out

I think Capital Punishment should be abolished for roughly the same reasons as Vaktathi stated; the legal system is currently not thorough enough to be able to put full burden of proof on a convicted person, and until that changes, we can't sentence people to death with the full possibility that the legal system is ironically murdering innocents.

G.A

 Vaktathi wrote:
I am of the firm opinion that some people truly do deserve to die, and that it can be in society's best interest that certain people die. However I also dont trust society to make those calls without the potential for putting the wrong people to death or getting screwups like this where there is no longer anything meaningful to be gained by such an execution, and as a result, and cannot as such support the death penalty or actions like this. This is the process doing its own thing for its own sake at this point...

Ditto. I have a few thoughts...

We're not perfect. Thus, any system we devise will have some built-in imperfectability (sp?).

Therefore, the state should not be in the business to taking someone's life if there's a chance that something went wrong during the conviction/sentencing.

Additionally, our prison system need a massive overhaul. It should only be reserved for the violent offenders.

Non-violent offenders shouldn't be sent to longterm prisons. (house arrest/fine/parole/monitoring/etc..).

Oh... feth for-profit-prisons hard.

And ofc, when someone pipes in with how "it's cheaper to kill them anyway" just think about how much it cost to keep this guy on Death Row for 26 years. Sure, that is longer than most will sit there but IIRC the standard circus with appeals and everything will run for well over a decade in most cases.

Not to mention it's punishment on punishment - you're isolated on Death Row with little access to anything other prisoners can occupy themself with. In effect solitary confinement until you're executed.

I think we either need to expedite the death penalty or repeal it entirely. What's the point of having a guy sit in prison for 26 years (basically a life sentence) and then executing him?

If you are cool with capital punishment then maybe this idea is the way forward?

 SirDonlad wrote:
If you are cool with capital punishment then maybe this idea is the way forward?

Gimme the cliff notes, man. But yeah, expedite it, or repeal it. If we can't be 100% sure somebody shouldn't be executed, then we shouldn't be executing people.

Relapse wrote:
This is another death penalty case I have trouble with. Where is the justice in leaving someone sweating 26 years before finally getting around to executing them? After that long, they should have just switched the penalty to life without parole.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/12/07/georgia-executes-inmate-for-1990-murder-father-in-law.html

It was because of legal maneuvering, a second trial (with the same verdict and penalty), petitions for clemency, appeals, and general wrangling. That's what usually drags out the time on death row before the sentence is carried out. And that appears to be the case here.


When sentenced to death, you should get one appeal and that's it. However, older cases/convictions from before the advent of modern forensic science/technology, and reliable DNA testing, should be reviewed if there is any question regarding the case. But there is no excuse anymore for dragging it out. Give them an appeal in the interests of due process, and if rejected, swiftly carry out the sentence. It's ridiculous that the taxpayers get shafted when all doubt is removed. Remove all the bullcrap and years of lengthy appeals, and you remove the number one problem with capital punishment in the United States: Exuberant costs.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:
If you are cool with capital punishment then maybe this idea is the way forward?

Spoiler:

Gimme the cliff notes, man. But yeah, expedite it, or repeal it. If we can't be 100% sure somebody shouldn't be executed, then we shouldn't be executing people.

It's a rollercoaster designed to go to 1670ft with final velocity of over 200mph at the bottom of the drop; it then goes into a loop that exerts ~10G downward force which drains the fluids from the brain.
The coaster then goes into a series of tightening loops designed to keep the downward G constant for 60 seconds which is apparently enough to cause cerebral hypoxia and ultimately death.

A different method of acheving the same effect was explored by Michael Portillo in a horizon documentary; they suggested a centrifuge or a decompressiopn chamber.
He subjected himself to the treatment under controlled conditions and IIRC later stated that his preferred method was hanging "if done properly" but also said that in the decompression chamber he got a euphoric sensation and as the oxygen levels decreased he became less and less concerned about his life - he had an oxygen feed in his hand and a guy next to him telling him that if he didn't put it on he would die and still didn't feel bothered enough to put it back on!

Why don't we do hangings anymore? With the botched injections in recent years, it's probably more humane, relatively speaking.

 kronk wrote:
Why don't we do hangings anymore? With the botched injections in recent years, it's probably more humane, relatively speaking.

You don't have trained hangmen. You get a hanging wrong and you get strangulation or someones head getting ripped off. Neither are very good ways to die or see someone die.

Well, since modern capital punishment is purely an exercise in revenge, who cares about that? More spectacle and more revenge stiffies for everyone!

At least with wrongful convictions you can let the guy go. Death is final, and the system to imperfect for such a commitment.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

Relapse wrote:
This is another death penalty case I have trouble with. Where is the justice in leaving someone sweating 26 years before finally getting around to executing them? After that long, they should have just switched the penalty to life without parole.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/12/07/georgia-executes-inmate-for-1990-murder-father-in-law.html

It was because of legal maneuvering, a second trial (with the same verdict and penalty), petitions for clemency, appeals, and general wrangling. That's what usually drags out the time on death row before the sentence is carried out. And that appears to be the case here.


When sentenced to death, you should get one appeal and that's it. However, older cases/convictions from before the advent of modern forensic science/technology, and reliable DNA testing, should be reviewed if there is any question regarding the case. But there is no excuse anymore for dragging it out. Give them an appeal in the interests of due process, and if rejected, swiftly carry out the sentence. It's ridiculous that the taxpayers get shafted when all doubt is removed. Remove all the bullcrap and years of lengthy appeals, and you remove the number one problem with capital punishment in the United States: Exuberant costs.

Don't you have a background corrections? Given the total clusterfeth that the system is in, you really think the "number one problem" is the high cost?

 curran12 wrote:
Well, since modern capital punishment is purely an exercise in revenge, who cares about that? More spectacle and more revenge stiffies for everyone!

Sponsored by Cialis!

One problem with the Death penalty (and torture) that no one talks about is someone has to do it. Yeah you can hide it, or diffuse responsibility. But in the end someone has to kill somebody to carry out the sentence. That's a burden society requires someone to bear. I find proponents of the Death Penalty a little too cavalier with other peoples souls.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

Relapse wrote:
This is another death penalty case I have trouble with. Where is the justice in leaving someone sweating 26 years before finally getting around to executing them? After that long, they should have just switched the penalty to life without parole.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/12/07/georgia-executes-inmate-for-1990-murder-father-in-law.html

It was because of legal maneuvering, a second trial (with the same verdict and penalty), petitions for clemency, appeals, and general wrangling. That's what usually drags out the time on death row before the sentence is carried out. And that appears to be the case here.


When sentenced to death, you should get one appeal and that's it. However, older cases/convictions from before the advent of modern forensic science/technology, and reliable DNA testing, should be reviewed if there is any question regarding the case. But there is no excuse anymore for dragging it out. Give them an appeal in the interests of due process, and if rejected, swiftly carry out the sentence. It's ridiculous that the taxpayers get shafted when all doubt is removed. Remove all the bullcrap and years of lengthy appeals, and you remove the number one problem with capital punishment in the United States: Exuberant costs.

There is some hypocrisy in demanding numerous appeals and safeguards and then claiming inhumanity in that the process takes so long.

Most US death penalty offenders die of natural causes.....

In light of the accidental glitches and intentional coverup of evidence revealed in the last few decades, I simply can't support imposing the the death penalty now.

 Frazzled wrote:
In light of the accidental glitches and intentional coverup of evidence revealed in the last few decades, I simply can't support imposing the the death penalty now.

Glad you feel that way.

 curran12 wrote:
Well, since modern capital punishment is purely an exercise in revenge, who cares about that? More spectacle and more revenge stiffies for everyone!

The majority of the US penal system is purely an exercise in revenge. That's part of the reason our recidivism rate is so massive and why we have a bigger prisoner population than either China or Russia. That's not per capita either. We have more prisoners than China, full stop. China has a billion more people than we do.

 Frazzled wrote:
In light of the accidental glitches and intentional coverup of evidence revealed in the last few decades, I simply can't support imposing the the death penalty now.

That's exactly how I feel. I support the death penalty in the hypothetical - where it's done fairly, efficiently, humanely, and acts as a deterrent to crime.

However in the practical, real world we live in, where pretty much none of that is true - absolutely not. We screw it up far too often and there are no take-backsies if you're wrong.

 Ouze wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
In light of the accidental glitches and intentional coverup of evidence revealed in the last few decades, I simply can't support imposing the the death penalty now.

That's exactly how I feel. I support the death penalty in the hypothetical - where it's done fairly, efficiently, humanely, and acts as a deterrent to crime.

However in the practical, real world we live in, where pretty much none of that is true - absolutely not. We screw it up far too often and there are no take-backsies if you're wrong.

For deterrent there's also opposite effect. Once you have gone point of death penalty you literally have nothing to lose so why not either go out big or do whatever it takes to not get caught. Add in gun and that's lot more dangerous person to catch than somebody who knows he won't die from being caught(so has incentive to not force arrest into shooting match because THAT can lead to death).

 Hordini wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Well, since modern capital punishment is purely an exercise in revenge, who cares about that? More spectacle and more revenge stiffies for everyone!

The majority of the US penal system is purely an exercise in revenge. That's part of the reason our recidivism rate is so massive and why we have a bigger prisoner population than either China or Russia. That's not per capita either. We have more prisoners than China, full stop. China has a billion more people than we do.

Are you really suggesting China has a better penal system?

 feeder wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

Relapse wrote:
This is another death penalty case I have trouble with. Where is the justice in leaving someone sweating 26 years before finally getting around to executing them? After that long, they should have just switched the penalty to life without parole.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/12/07/georgia-executes-inmate-for-1990-murder-father-in-law.html

It was because of legal maneuvering, a second trial (with the same verdict and penalty), petitions for clemency, appeals, and general wrangling. That's what usually drags out the time on death row before the sentence is carried out. And that appears to be the case here.


When sentenced to death, you should get one appeal and that's it. However, older cases/convictions from before the advent of modern forensic science/technology, and reliable DNA testing, should be reviewed if there is any question regarding the case. But there is no excuse anymore for dragging it out. Give them an appeal in the interests of due process, and if rejected, swiftly carry out the sentence. It's ridiculous that the taxpayers get shafted when all doubt is removed. Remove all the bullcrap and years of lengthy appeals, and you remove the number one problem with capital punishment in the United States: Exuberant costs.

Don't you have a background corrections? Given the total clusterfeth that the system is in, you really think the "number one problem" is the high cost?

Yes. And it's both my time in corrections and study of correctional issues/policy in college that is a big influence on my thinking.


In addition to court costs and legal costs (some of which comes from the taxpayer in some cases with the latter), it costs more per year to house a death row inmate than an inmate in administrative segregation, general population (all security classifications), long term disciplinary segregation, with special needs (poor health, terminal illness, mentally ill, or disabled), or protective segregation.

Death Row is a world unto itself (I've been to Central's death row wing in Raleigh. It's a lot different than the closed custody and segregation that I worked in. It takes a special breed to work death row long term). There are special security needs and procedures, staff with additional training, a 24-7 extraction team ("Goon Squad") on standby, tighter policy/special SOPs, and death row inmates have special needs because of their high security environment. There are also case managers, counselors, and clergy that are specialized in dealing with death row inmates. Some States, I'm told, even have separate kitchen with heavily vetted trustees for death row. And that's just the half of it.

All of those special security, staffing issues, facilities, needs, etc. cost big bucks and more than the average housing of a non-death row inmate. Add on years of legal eagle stuff , court sessions, paperwork, and appeals, and that cost in the facility housing alone is outrageously high.

I am a firm supporter of capital punishment. But even I think that the current system is cumbersome, overly expensive, and has too much politics involved. Things need to be streamlined and sped up in the present day, especially with the forensics and science we have now used to investigate capital crimes. In my view, having somebody lingering on death row for an excessive period of time constitutes cruel and unusual punishment. But eliminating the death penalty isn't the way to go, in my opinion.

 Ouze wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
In light of the accidental glitches and intentional coverup of evidence revealed in the last few decades, I simply can't support imposing the the death penalty now.

That's exactly how I feel. I support the death penalty in the hypothetical - where it's done fairly, efficiently, humanely, and acts as a deterrent to crime.

However in the practical, real world we live in, where pretty much none of that is true - absolutely not. We screw it up far too often and there are no take-backsies if you're wrong.

Same here, I simply don't trust the system not to feth up and send someone innocent to death. And I don't trust it to kill someone humanely, especially with the risk of fething up the execution of someone that could be innocent.