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I get the technological stagnation of the Imperium. And I guess the Orks' genetically determined technology will take a while to evolve. Plus Tyranids are just animals. And the Tau are new on the scene. But what accounts for the lack of progress among Eldar and Chaos?

Bonestomper wrote:
I get the technological stagnation of the Imperium. And I guess the Orks' genetically determined technology will take a while to evolve. Plus Tyranids are just animals. And the Tau are new on the scene. But what accounts for the lack of progress among Eldar and Chaos?

Some Chaos stuff progresses, but given that they can be working with weird bio-tech alongside Deamon summoning and some are just doing stuff to see what happens or for pure enjoyment its seldom focussed. The patron god might just decree that everything needs to be steampunk and then next week super high tech and the next no tech. The whims of the gods will play some part. The Dark Mechanicum is a thing but again they are not a focussed single minded organisation any more than the Ad Mech is - its also about factions and powerplays and the like.

Eldar are ultra conservative and also past their best. They are living in the remnants of a once great Empire which they can maintain but that's about it - like the Imperium of Man they spend more time looking back than forward.

Great answer!

Good points Morden

I'd also point out that the Eldar have gone through a pretty catastrophic fall from grace, and haven't yet had time to recover. Any technology they have is likely what little they could scramble to pick up while their empire was crumbling around them. For instance, the vehicles of the Dark Eldar are basically modified pleasure craft.

Another thing, pre-Fall the majority of their warfare was conducted by psychomatons (probably similar to Wraithguard, but not powered by souls). It's likely that the majority of eldar war vehicles are either older designs from before they developed their psychomaton armies, or developments since the Fall. Soulstones as a method of preserving ones' soul, and the afterlife of the Infinity Matrix are also post-Fall developments. Same thing with Wraithguard (or at least using them as vessels to resurrect dead warriors).

So, the Eldar are progressing technologically. They're just starting from a position that's every bit as crappy (relative to their former glory) as the Imperium/Ad Mech after the Men of Iron & Horus Heresy incidents. As for the pace of development being slow in the 10,000 years after the Fall, I think Morden has it right with general conservative mindset, and more wishing for the past than striving towards the future.

Bonestomper wrote:
But what accounts for the lack of progress among Eldar

The Eldar have all the technology they need, but the different eldar factions use the technology for very different purposes

The Craftworld eldar are very few in number, so they cannot manufacture anything. They also have no raw materials to make things, their craftworlds are just big space ships with no mines to collect raw materials. Instead they use technology to grow what they need. Manufacturing a gun is a fairly simple process if you have the energy, materials, and manpower to run a factory. Growing one from psykic energy without any supervision is a whole other ball game. Compared to humans where perhaps 1% of the population is fighting the war while 99% of the population are growing food, mining raw materials, building weapons, transporting materials, and supporting the economy, the eldar use technology so everyone on the craftworld can fight. It's very impressive. The progress is being able to still field effective technology with such little input.

The Dark eldar can manufacture things, they have all the slave manpower and stolen material they need. They could make intricate suits of armor of incredible protection if they liked, they could create advanced long range guns that vaporize enemies with ease. They might even be able to construct massive autonomous titans to fight their wars for them, but they have no interest in doing so. For them the heat of battle IS the point of war. Armor and elaborate guns separate them from the pain and pleasure of combat. Building autonomous robots completely defeats the whole point of battle for them. The Haemoculi do create war engines, but these are not so much to fight their battles for them but to humilate those they created them from and terrorize their victums in ways no mere robot could. The progress is making their army more and more sesual and aware of the battle. The psykic pain/pleasure the DE feed on is like a drug, they are always needing larger and larger doses.

The exodities have purposefully shunned technology. They are the Amish of the 40k world.

Bonestomper wrote:
But what accounts for the lack of progress among Chaos?

Chaos is material problem combined with maintenance.
Chaos doesn't have the billion worlds the IoM has churning out minerals, fuel, and manpower to build things. They have to use what they have, stealing and conjuring things from the warp. The techonological innovation is limited to making weapons and municaitons faster and with less materials than the IoM comparible tech. Have you read how they make Forgefiends/Daemon Engines? They hammer out a rough exoskeleton of a robot and then summon a daemon into it, binding it to the metals. Imagine how much easier that is than the Ad Mech toiling away trying to build a dreadnaught or knight.
On the other hand Chaos has to constantly maintain all of these different weapons they have. While the IoM is mostly standardized and modifications are limited/forbidden, Chaos has to support dozens of competing platforms from all the different legions plus whatever has turned traitor in the last 10k years. Modification is enourged, so this particular bolter might be slightly better: jam less, have a slightly longer range, higher ROF, or more punch but when it comes to maintaining it takes more and more effort to keep everything running.
Chaos also doesnt share the knowledge well. If a dark techie learns something new, they jealously keep it to themselves. It becomes their trade, their meal ticket to exist rather than getting implemented across the faction.
Also when it comes to knowledge, Chaos offers unbounded knowledge. Arcane secrets that are both fascinating and just beyond the realm of application. How many of the Dark Mech are driven insane by such knowledge is unknown, but that combined with those who get lost in study or thought must be very high.

What lack of progress among the Eldar? The Dark Eldar are possibly the most technologically progressive faction in the entire setting.

 Exergy wrote:

The Craftworld eldar are very few in number, so they cannot manufacture anything. They also have no raw materials to make things, their craftworlds are just big space ships with no mines to collect raw materials. Instead they use technology to grow what they need.

While it's true that the craftworld eldar don't manufacture things in the conventional sense, I'd say that they're definitely the principle industrial force of the eldar. They have no need of raw materials as all of their devices and constructs are sung directly from the warp. The reason I say they're the principle industrial force is that they can field far more heavy and superheavy vehicles and constructs than their cousins. Perhaps the Dark Eldar have equal industrial capacity, but as you've said it's not really in their interest to exercise it (much more fun to chop people up with knives).

 Robin5t wrote:
What lack of progress among the Eldar? The Dark Eldar are possibly the most technologically progressive faction in the entire setting.

I suppose it's less that they're not advanced, more that they haven't changed in the 10,000 years since the Fall.

Personally I think it's the same issue as the Imperium. A catastrophic series of events has wracked their civilisations, leaving the survivors scrabbling around in the ashes of their once glorious empires.

The Eldar are in the exact same boat as the Imperium, over very nearly the exact same timescale.

Not changed?

The Eldar of Commorragh basically had to rebuild their entire tech-base after an apocalyptic event destroyed their empire and still ended up a close second only to the Necrons in their mastery of the sciences, even exceeding the latter in certain areas like biology.

The Craftworlders are stagnant, sure, but the Dark Eldar are arguably just as progressive as the Tau.

Seems unfair to call Craftworlders stagnant seeing as there is some mention of things being developed like the Vyper and they did have to rebuild their tech base as well considering they lost a lot of manufacturing ability when they were forced to leave on big trade ships.

 Robin5t wrote:
Not changed?

The Eldar of Commorragh basically had to rebuild their entire tech-base after an apocalyptic event destroyed their empire and still ended up a close second only to the Necrons in their mastery of the sciences, even exceeding the latter in certain areas like biology.

The Craftworlders are stagnant, sure, but the Dark Eldar are arguably just as progressive as the Tau.

Good point! Didn't think of that.

Pre-Fall, I'd imagine that a large proportion of Eldar technology would be psychic-based like the Craftworlders. Given that the Dark Eldar cannot use that, they'd have had to either retrofit their existing technology and/or develop entirely new technology basically from scratch.

Definitely hand it to the Dark Eldar for technological progression since the Fall/Age of Strife.

pm713 wrote:
Seems unfair to call Craftworlders stagnant seeing as there is some mention of things being developed like the Vyper and they did have to rebuild their tech base as well considering they lost a lot of manufacturing ability when they were forced to leave on big trade ships.

Agreed. It's more headcanon than anything else, but I think that the majority of pre-Fall eldar technology required psychic input to function (pretty small leap of logic given that that's how their current tech works).

However, I reckon that their more impressive tech needs more psychic input than is safe for them to use in the post-Slaanesh world. So, like the Dark Eldar, they've had to attempt to adapt their technology to a much lower level of psychic activation.

Just my personal theory as to why they're not romping around with doomsday weapons the whole time

I think something to remember with the Dark Eldar is that arguably they have put more into the development of genetics and the quasi magical soul tech via the Haemonculus Covens than into arms and armour.

Remember that since the Fall they've effectively made themselves functionally immortal, I'd say that was a fething huge advance.

My theory on the more advanced psychic technology is that it requires either an actual specialist facility to construct it like a factory of some kind or there isn't anywhere sufficiently safe on the Craftworlds to store such dangerous technology. I prefer the first one myself.

The immortality is a good point. Although it occurs to me that most Eldar have some kind of doing that through World Spirits, Haemonculii or using Spirit Stones but the Craftworlders stand out as they actually make use of their dead.

 Imateria wrote:
I think something to remember with the Dark Eldar is that arguably they have put more into the development of genetics and the quasi magical soul tech via the Haemonculus Covens than into arms and armour.

Remember that since the Fall they've effectively made themselves functionally immortal, I'd say that was a fething huge advance.

Agreed. Functionally immortal and have solved the elven birthrate problem.

At the price of riding around the battlefield in paper boats apparently

pm713 wrote:
My theory on the more advanced psychic technology is that it requires either an actual specialist facility to construct it like a factory of some kind or there isn't anywhere sufficiently safe on the Craftworlds to store such dangerous technology. I prefer the first one myself.

The immortality is a good point. Although it occurs to me that most Eldar have some kind of doing that through World Spirits, Haemonculii or using Spirit Stones but the Craftworlders stand out as they actually make use of their dead.

Yeah that works too. Either way, just like the Imperium, they can't use their juiciest technology for whatever reason.

I'd say that the Commorrites stand out because their dead don't stay dead.

The craftworlders and the exodites store their dead in vaults locked away from Slaanesh. The dark eldar skip the whole death part entirely, provided they can pay their bills.

I know which I'd prefer

On the other hand the Craftworld version puts you in a badass new body that doesn't need to eat, drink or rest. Makes for way better soldiers but I have to agree that for the individual the Dark Eldar have the better process provided they can afford it.

 Imateria wrote:
I think something to remember with the Dark Eldar is that arguably they have put more into the development of genetics and the quasi magical soul tech via the Haemonculus Covens than into arms and armour.

Remember that since the Fall they've effectively made themselves functionally immortal, I'd say that was a fething huge advance.

They also expend a lot of effort in coming up with gruesome/weird/painful ways to kill. IIRC In the 5th edition codex they have a description of a sniper rifle that instead of firing a posioned dart, would build a glass tube between itself and the target, inject the posion into the targets blood in a split second the tube exists, and then shatter the tube. Apparently the particular type of posion they wanted to use wouldnt work with a dart, and while it wasnt more lethal than dart based posions, it was a lot more painful, so they went with the glass tube method.

All of this really boils down to the need to push figures around on a table top (and sell miniatures so that people can do so). There's no logical explanation why everything isn't done from distance, drones, cruiser-strikes etc. You can justify "some" minor ground actions, but on the whole 40K combat seems shockingly superfluous considering the tech available.

It's just part of the setting.

 Exergy wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
I think something to remember with the Dark Eldar is that arguably they have put more into the development of genetics and the quasi magical soul tech via the Haemonculus Covens than into arms and armour.

Remember that since the Fall they've effectively made themselves functionally immortal, I'd say that was a fething huge advance.

They also expend a lot of effort in coming up with gruesome/weird/painful ways to kill. IIRC In the 5th edition codex they have a description of a sniper rifle that instead of firing a posioned dart, would build a glass tube between itself and the target, inject the posion into the targets blood in a split second the tube exists, and then shatter the tube. Apparently the particular type of posion they wanted to use wouldnt work with a dart, and while it wasnt more lethal than dart based posions, it was a lot more painful, so they went with the glass tube method.

This provides the hilarious mental image of some guardsmen clotheslining themselves on a random glass tube in the middle of a battlefield. Imagine the absurdity of that weapon being fielded en masse. People walking into random easily-shattered glass tubes all the time. Broken glass covering the entire battlefield.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
Not changed?

The Eldar of Commorragh basically had to rebuild their entire tech-base after an apocalyptic event destroyed their empire and still ended up a close second only to the Necrons in their mastery of the sciences, even exceeding the latter in certain areas like biology.

The Craftworlders are stagnant, sure, but the Dark Eldar are arguably just as progressive as the Tau.

Good point! Didn't think of that.

Pre-Fall, I'd imagine that a large proportion of Eldar technology would be psychic-based like the Craftworlders. Given that the Dark Eldar cannot use that, they'd have had to either retrofit their existing technology and/or develop entirely new technology basically from scratch.

Definitely hand it to the Dark Eldar for technological progression since the Fall/Age of Strife.

Basically everything from their furniture down to their restaurant menus was psychically-operated prior to the Fall, judging from the glimpse we got in Asurmen.

And yet, despite not being able to use any of it (we know from Valedor that they can't even operate psychically-activated devices any more), the Dark Eldar still manage to be a very close second to the Necrons in their mastery of the sciences. I'd say that's really impressive, to be honest.

 Imateria wrote:
I think something to remember with the Dark Eldar is that arguably they have put more into the development of genetics and the quasi magical soul tech via the Haemonculus Covens than into arms and armour.

Remember that since the Fall they've effectively made themselves functionally immortal, I'd say that was a fething huge advance.

Only the richest and most powerful Dark Eldar are functionally immortal because their non-aging and regeneration relies upon being able to feed upon a steady supply of inflicted pain. The thirst also grows with age so unless you are powerful, at some point eventually you will not be able to keep up with the ever increasing demand. The desperation to keep up will also lead to increasingly rash behavior likely to result in one's permanent death.

The wealth inequality gap is greater in Dark Eldar society and the perks of their way of life are really only for those at the top. The rest get crumbs. Craftworld Eldar are more communal and it seems everyone has a decent standard of living.

 Verviedi wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
I think something to remember with the Dark Eldar is that arguably they have put more into the development of genetics and the quasi magical soul tech via the Haemonculus Covens than into arms and armour.

Remember that since the Fall they've effectively made themselves functionally immortal, I'd say that was a fething huge advance.

They also expend a lot of effort in coming up with gruesome/weird/painful ways to kill. IIRC In the 5th edition codex they have a description of a sniper rifle that instead of firing a posioned dart, would build a glass tube between itself and the target, inject the posion into the targets blood in a split second the tube exists, and then shatter the tube. Apparently the particular type of posion they wanted to use wouldnt work with a dart, and while it wasnt more lethal than dart based posions, it was a lot more painful, so they went with the glass tube method.

This provides the hilarious mental image of some guardsmen clotheslining themselves on a random glass tube in the middle of a battlefield. Imagine the absurdity of that weapon being fielded en masse. People walking into random easily-shattered glass tubes all the time. Broken glass covering the entire battlefield.

Which is probably half the idea. DE want to terrorize their foe. They attack a night, suddenly, and have weapons that make it rain glass shards randomly. The shatter shard missile freezes everything then shatters it into a million pieces. The stinger injects toxins that dont just kill but make the victim explode. All this before the DE actually close into melee and you find yourself in hand to hand with a warp beast, a drugged out, super fast elf, or buzzsaw wielding Frankenstein's monsters made out of your friends.

They have a piece of wargear that projects a hologramic mask of your best friend onto themselves so you think twice about hitting them. The technology to scan an enemies brain and project their friends face in real time seems incredible complicated, but they do it for laughs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iracundus wrote:


Only the richest and most powerful Dark Eldar are functionally immortal because their non-aging and regeneration relies upon being able to feed upon a steady supply of inflicted pain. The thirst also grows with age so unless you are powerful, at some point eventually you will not be able to keep up with the ever increasing demand. The desperation to keep up will also lead to increasingly rash behavior likely to result in one's permanent death.

The wealth inequality gap is greater in Dark Eldar society and the perks of their way of life are really only for those at the top. The rest get crumbs. Craftworld Eldar are more communal and it seems everyone has a decent standard of living.

Yes the DE are one of the most brutally unequal societies in the setting. Groteques are non DE, but Wracks are DE who somewhere along the line slipped through the cracks and ended up being meat for the haemuculi.

 Exergy wrote:

Yes the DE are one of the most brutally unequal societies in the setting. Groteques are non DE, but Wracks are DE who somewhere along the line slipped through the cracks and ended up being meat for the haemuculi.

The Wracks are willing servants of the Haemonculi because they hope to be promoted to become one of them and gain functional immortality and access to their technological secrets. In the Haemonculus Covens supplement there is a snippet about how one Wrack managed to achieve this final step, after feeling cheated by being ignored despite centuries of good service. The rate of promotion is probably very low, nearly non-existent, and most of the Wracks are condemning themselves to centuries of agonizing torture and debasement for nothing.

I think there's probably plenty of instances where each of those are true. The Dark City is varied enough

Oh, and resurrection isn't solely the realm of the upper echelons. If you're a good enough warrior in a Kabal, your Archon may think you're worth paying a Haemi to bring you back. Actually, it might be quite common for an Archon to resurrect their minions who were blatted during a realspace raid.

Best place to be is middle management

If you are a Kabalite warrior going on a realspace raid, you are already in the upper echelons. The Dark Eldar Codices state this. Being picked for a realspace raid is a privilege already that most Dark Eldar Kabalites do not get, because it means you get to feed at will and take out any frustrations on the "lesser races", and performance on raids is a chance at further promotion.

However there is a difference between resurrection and staying young indefinitely. Both rely upon feeding upon pain. However the amount one has to feed on to stay youthful increases over time, regardless of whether you die or not. That is why some of the older Dark Eldar need massive atrocities in order to rejuvenate themselves. Anything less just doesn't do it anymore. If one stays "middle management" but costs an ever increasing amount of upkeep, what Archon is going to keep such an expensive mediocrity around? The Parched (again as described in the Dark Eldar Codex) are what result when a Dark Eldar is starved and unable to keep themselves young and vital. They are condemned to a ghoul-like existence hunting for scraps assuming they survive being weakened in the first place.

Interesting I really must pick up the Dark Eldar codex for fluff purposes.

Is it one of the usual 7th ed. ones where the 5th ed. one is much better from a fluff perspective?

Yes.

It basically revamped the Dark Eldar from their tiny 3rd edition barebones Codex.

Gotcha I'll have to get both