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No matter how many times I read the rules or look at it, it never makes any sense.

I'm from 2nd-4th edition, so this is so confusing.

I picked up the Traitor Legions book. I play Nurgle/Death Guard.

I want to take a Death Guard detachment.

Then I want to take a Sons of Mortarion formation.

Is that formation apart of the Death Guard detachment? Does it get the Death Guard detachment rules? And if it does, where does it say that?

How do I know what formations are allowed in what detachment? Is a formation a detachment? Can a detachment be a formation?

I just don't get it. The explanations in the books make no sense.

Okay.

The force org you are familiar with is the Combined Arms Detachment. This is now considered a specific kind of *detachment*. Armies are made up of one or more detachments. So, double CAD, which used to be called double force org, is now totally a thing. The CAD has specific benefits such as obj sec troops and rerolling warlord trait.

Formations are *also* detachments. However, instead of selecting units, typically the formation just tells you what's in it. Formations have bonuses associated with them that apply only to the units in that formation.

A 7th ed 40K list may have any combination of detachments and still be considered a bound list.

There are also mega-formations that are made up of smaller formations. These are the "decurion" style formations.

A 'detachment' is either a normal detachment (with a Force Organization Chart like the one you'll be used to) or a Formation (with specific requirements on how many of what units you're allowed). Metadetachments (also called 'decurions' after the first and most famous of them) are a sort of special-case detachment composed of formations.

So if you're building a Death Guard army you've got the normal CAD (the plain ordinary 1-2 HQ/2-6 Troops/0-3 each of others detachment that's been the standard since 3rd at least), all the formations in Traitor Legions, and the meta-detachment from the Traitor Legions book. Any of them that can fill the requirements (off the top of my head it's a CSM detachmnet where everything has a Mark/Daemon of Nurgle if it can have any Mark and nothing has any other Mark/Daemon rule) is a Death Guard detachment.

(Example: A Cult of Destruction (3 Obliterator or Mutilator units, 1-3 Warpsmiths) is a formation, a special type of detachment, and it's a CSM formation (all units from the Chaos Space Marines faction), so if you give all of the Obliterators/Mutilators and all the Warpsmiths the Mark of Nurgle it can be a Death Guard detachment.)

The meta-detachments specify what sub-factions are allowed within them so you're not allowed to take (for instance) a formation that would qualify as an Iron Warriors detachment in a Night Lords meta-detachment to double up on benefits.

Ok that makes more sense. it's still confusing, but...I can deal for now.

Thanks for the responses.

GW really came up with a clumsy way to do this.

It took me a while too, I was stuck in the old school way of thinking hah, then it finally just clicked.

People kept explaining by talking about CAD, but still CAD doesn't really mean much if you're old school...

It is all just about different arrangements of the Force-Org chart... the most standard, and typical of old school codex, is now called the CAD - combined arms detachment.

But some codex have their own version with its own name.

Formations are what we used to have in the old Apocalypse book, just odd one-off collections of certain units, that combine with some added benefit/rules.

You'll see people refer to "gladius" or "decurion" detachments... and those are detachments like the CAD, but instead of listing certain units you can take, they have a list of certain formations you can take.

 Whitebeard wrote:
Ok that makes more sense. it's still confusing, but...I can deal for now.

Thanks for the responses.

GW really came up with a clumsy way to do this.

The short version is to play the plain, ordinary CAD (the FOC you know) with the Death Guard detachment restrictions (Mark of Nurgle only, no non-Marked units), and start tackling alternate detachments, formations, and meta-formations once you've got your feet under you in this edition.

(Also the fact that 'detachment' means 'a detachment with a FOC that doesn't prescribe specific units' and 'any detachment or formation' doesn't help (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html). Perhaps I should propose 'FOC' as a term for 'a detachment that isn't a formation' to keep the definitions straight.)

This isn't a perfect analogy, but I've used it to explain to people a few times:

Imagine going to a fast food burger restaurant and you want to get lunch.

40k Units are like "burger patty", "cheese", "pickles", "fries", "chili", "bacon", "bun", etc.

-----They generally won't let you buy just pickles. And you usually can't buy just a lone unit.

40k Detachments are like menu items such as "bacon cheese burger" or "chili cheese fries". Prebuilt sets of food. They are customizable, but fit a certain format (ex. hamburger, cheeseburger, bacon cheeseburger, etc.)

-----That works like a Combined Arms Detachment or a Battle Demi-Company

40k Formation-detachments (aka Decurion) are like Combo meals (burger + fries + drink). You get a few detachments, but can add individual items as allowed on the "menu".

-----That works like a Lion's Blade (1+ Core, 1+ Auxiliary, and you can add more if you want)

Of course, Unbound is like a buffet. Take what you want.

Hope this helps.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Whitebeard wrote:
Ok that makes more sense. it's still confusing, but...I can deal for now.

Thanks for the responses.

GW really came up with a clumsy way to do this.

The short version is to play the plain, ordinary CAD (the FOC you know) with the Death Guard detachment restrictions (Mark of Nurgle only, no non-Marked units), and start tackling alternate detachments, formations, and meta-formations once you've got your feet under you in this edition.

(Also the fact that 'detachment' means 'a detachment with a FOC that doesn't prescribe specific units' and 'any detachment or formation' doesn't help (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html). Perhaps I should propose 'FOC' as a term for 'a detachment that isn't a formation' to keep the definitions straight.)

That comic sums up my frustration with Pathfinder and most RPGs. The words "level", "dice/die", "rank", "score", "ability", etc. are all just tossed around differently, or used in strange ways, making it extremely difficult for new players. With my pathfinder group, everyone was confused for the first few games how any of it even worked, and some are still confused.

 Whitebeard wrote:
Ok that makes more sense. it's still confusing, but...I can deal for now.

Thanks for the responses.

GW really came up with a clumsy way to do this.

One easy way to ease yourself into it is to take a single formation and then add it to a CAD list that you have chopped some units out of. Eventually, you will be comfortable fielding all formations. However, due to the restrictive nature of formations, CAD + one or more formations is a VERY common list scheme. Obj sec troops never go out of style!

Another thing that confuses me...

What is the difference between the Sons of Magnus and the Grand Coven?

They are listed next to each other and they look like they are referring to the same thing?

 kungfujon wrote:
This isn't a perfect analogy, but I've used it to explain to people a few times:

Imagine going to a fast food burger restaurant and you want to get lunch.

40k Units are like "burger patty", "cheese", "pickles", "fries", "chili", "bacon", "bun", etc.

-----They generally won't let you buy just pickles. And you usually can't buy just a lone unit.

40k Detachments are like menu items such as "bacon cheese burger" or "chili cheese fries". Prebuilt sets of food. They are customizable, but fit a certain format (ex. hamburger, cheeseburger, bacon cheeseburger, etc.)

-----That works like a Combined Arms Detachment or a Battle Demi-Company

40k Formation-detachments (aka Decurion) are like Combo meals (burger + fries + drink). You get a few detachments, but can add individual items as allowed on the "menu".

-----That works like a Lion's Blade (1+ Core, 1+ Auxiliary, and you can add more if you want)

Of course, Unbound is like a buffet. Take what you want.

Hope this helps.

This is excellent!

As far a I can tell, Sons of Magnus is simply the page heading for the two page spread describing all the Thousand Sons formations/detachments (including the 'Grand Coven' uber-detachment).

edit: I like the build-a-burger / burger combo meal explanation

 Whitebeard wrote:
Another thing that confuses me...

What is the difference between the Sons of Magnus and the Grand Coven?

They are listed next to each other and they look like they are referring to the same thing?

That's more specific than I know. I'd have to see your book to tell you. Could one of those be a super-formation made up of smaller formations?

What still confuses me is how to know when a formation can be taken as a standalone detatchment vs when it can only be taken as an auxiliary in a decurion style detatchmentment, like the spawn formation from traitors legions.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
What still confuses me is how to know when a formation can be taken as a standalone detatchment vs when it can only be taken as an auxiliary in a decurion style detatchmentment, like the spawn formation from traitors legions.

It's only a formation if it has it's own datasheet. That Spawn option isn't a formation, its just an auxiliary choice for the meta-detachment

Well in the Angel's Blade book for example...

There were some Aux groupings, similar to formations, that fell under the big Decurion detachment, that didn't have separate page formation listings (like the Fire Support Force)... and those you cannot take as standalone.

But if it has it's own separate page listing as a Formation, then you can take it alone as a standalone detatchment.

Generally publications that introduce uber-detachments with a bunch of sub-formations will say something along the lines of "Note you can also include any of the formations presented in this section a part of a Battle-Forged army."

Many of these formations won't have any special rules or command benefits when used outside of their uber-detachment though.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
What still confuses me is how to know when a formation can be taken as a standalone detatchment vs when it can only be taken as an auxiliary in a decurion style detatchmentment, like the spawn formation from traitors legions.

Some detachments in the uber-detachment will have their own entry, others won't. Those that don't can't be taken as independent formations.

This thread has cleared up alot of questions.

Martel732 wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
What still confuses me is how to know when a formation can be taken as a standalone detatchment vs when it can only be taken as an auxiliary in a decurion style detatchmentment, like the spawn formation from traitors legions.

Some detachments in the uber-detachment will have their own entry, others won't. Those that don't can't be taken as independent formations.

Do you have an example of phrasing where it says a formation can't be taken as a formation?

nareik wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
What still confuses me is how to know when a formation can be taken as a standalone detatchment vs when it can only be taken as an auxiliary in a decurion style detatchmentment, like the spawn formation from traitors legions.

Some detachments in the uber-detachment will have their own entry, others won't. Those that don't can't be taken as independent formations.

Do you have an example of phrasing where it says a formation can't be taken as a formation?

I can only speak to the Angel's Blade again... but the so-called "formations" that aren't really formations... A) don't have their own datasheet, and B.) - because of A, they are never technically listed as a "Formation" anywhere in the book. Under the detachments they are just Aux options you can choose but never actually formations.

Maybe this will help. Boxes are Detachments. Except the yellow ones (Allied Detachment), any other can be your Primary one (where your Warlord comes from). Each Detachment can be of any Faction (more or less Codex and Supplements), except Allied - this one must be from a different Faction than your Primary one

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 kungfujon wrote:
This isn't a perfect analogy, but I've used it to explain to people a few times:

Imagine going to a fast food burger restaurant and you want to get lunch.

40k Units are like "burger patty", "cheese", "pickles", "fries", "chili", "bacon", "bun", etc.

-----They generally won't let you buy just pickles. And you usually can't buy just a lone unit.

40k Detachments are like menu items such as "bacon cheese burger" or "chili cheese fries". Prebuilt sets of food. They are customizable, but fit a certain format (ex. hamburger, cheeseburger, bacon cheeseburger, etc.)

-----That works like a Combined Arms Detachment or a Battle Demi-Company

40k Formation-detachments (aka Decurion) are like Combo meals (burger + fries + drink). You get a few detachments, but can add individual items as allowed on the "menu".

-----That works like a Lion's Blade (1+ Core, 1+ Auxiliary, and you can add more if you want)

Of course, Unbound is like a buffet. Take what you want.

Hope this helps.

This is excellent!

It really is!

nareik wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
What still confuses me is how to know when a formation can be taken as a standalone detatchment vs when it can only be taken as an auxiliary in a decurion style detatchmentment, like the spawn formation from traitors legions.

Some detachments in the uber-detachment will have their own entry, others won't. Those that don't can't be taken as independent formations.

Do you have an example of phrasing where it says a formation can't be taken as a formation?

It's in the language of the super formation.

Ok. So with "FORCES OF DEATH GUARD" basically sorta UPGRADES a detachment or formation if it meets the requirements for it? Here is a picture of that page:

https://s24.postimg.org/4l9a4oxhx/Death_Guard.png

Take a look at Vector Strike's picture. That should hopefully clear things up a lot. And is valid for all armies.

Chaos space marines then have one additional quirk now with traitor legions (and crimson slaughter).
They can take any detachment of the CSM faction and dedicate it to one of the nine legions. That's what that forces of the deathguard thing is about.

So you take any detachment or formation you want (formations are also detachments) and decide you want to dedicate it to one of the nine.
Now in order to do that, you need to meet certain criteria, such as not using units with a mark that isn't nurgle.
If you can meet those criteria, then you get to modify that detachment such that the models in there gain certain special rules. Like Gifts of nurgle.

A deathguard vectorium (the Deathguard detachment) is dedicated to deathguard by default. They chose a clumsy way of telling you that, but whatever.
But take the Black Crusade detachment from Traitor's hate for example. That is a generic CSM detachment.
You can choose to dedicate it to deathguard and give everything relentless and so on.

These dedications don't change how you organize your army, they just change how the detachment you dedicate works, by adding some restrictions and giving you extra rules in return.
And like in his picture, all other detachments you bring have nothing to do with each other. You could have two CAD's, each dedicated to different legions.

I feel like I know everything now.

 Gunzhard wrote:

nareik wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
What still confuses me is how to know when a formation can be taken as a standalone detatchment vs when it can only be taken as an auxiliary in a decurion style detatchmentment, like the spawn formation from traitors legions.

Some detachments in the uber-detachment will have their own entry, others won't. Those that don't can't be taken as independent formations.

Do you have an example of phrasing where it says a formation can't be taken as a formation?

I can only speak to the Angel's Blade again... but the so-called "formations" that aren't really formations... A) don't have their own datasheet, and B.) - because of A, they are never technically listed as a "Formation" anywhere in the book. Under the detachments they are just Aux options you can choose but never actually formations.

Thank you for this explanation, I went back and looked at some of the uber-formations I had available to look at and I can see such formations are made up of smaller 'Formations' and 'Army List Entries'. The Black Crusade supplement even explicitly lists it adds 11 formations, so from that I was able to conclusively understand that choices such as 'Lords of the Black Crusade', 'Veterans of the Legions' and 'Spawn' weren't in fact formations that lacked any special rules/command benefits (as I had wrongly presumed) and were actually just 'Army List Entries' choices.