Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, I have a question dakka, would it be a good idea to get the Age of Darkness army list book? or should I wait for book 7 to drop?

get 'em. it will take another book or two 'till the new red books drop. if you're really worried, you can get both red books as ebooks for 55 bucks on black library's sight.

Thanks for the quick reply, I'll probably end up getting it.

Well, if you want to play any games between now and the new edition, then yeah, you'll have to get them.

eBooks are cheaper then the printed books. /shrug

 kinratha wrote:
So, I have a question dakka, would it be a good idea to get the Age of Darkness army list book? or should I wait for book 7 to drop?

Ughh, I realize I'm going to get a ton of hate for this, but thought I will post anyways. I'm not afraid of random people on the internet.

FW isn't getting any money from me for their Red Books until they are actually completed. I'm not talking about the updates (that will probably never be done) I'm talking all the basics. A Red Book that contains the individual Legion rules needs to contain all of them for example. I'm not buying a Legion book that is 2 short, just so I can buy a full one later.

I don't have an infinite amount of money. So for right now I'm either buying complete models or incomplete books. I've chosen to buy the models, and I buy a lot of them. FW gets pretty much 100% of my hobby budget right now. Once all the legions are out, and the basic Crusade army list as been updated to reflect that, I'll happily buy both those books. With how much the rules have changed since the game first came out, I would be extremely annoyed if I had bought the books up until now. I would be thinking about all the up-to-date models I could have had instead.

As of right now (and to be clear, I'm saying what I do, not what anyone else should do!) I've got a copy of the book on my computer. I use that to make lists. The people I play with have no issues with it. All that being said, I like to play with the book actually in my hand. If I was using a digital version, it sounds like they are updated for free?

Geronimo509 wrote:

 kinratha wrote:
So, I have a question dakka, would it be a good idea to get the Age of Darkness army list book? or should I wait for book 7 to drop?

Ughh, I realize I'm going to get a ton of hate for this, but thought I will post anyways. I'm not afraid of random people on the internet.

FW isn't getting any money from me for their Red Books until they are actually completed. I'm not talking about the updates (that will probably never be done) I'm talking all the basics. A Red Book that contains the individual Legion rules needs to contain all of them for example. I'm not buying a Legion book that is 2 short, just so I can buy a full one later.

I don't have an infinite amount of money. So for right now I'm either buying complete models or incomplete books. I've chosen to buy the models, and I buy a lot of them. FW gets pretty much 100% of my hobby budget right now. Once all the legions are out, and the basic Crusade army list as been updated to reflect that, I'll happily buy both those books. With how much the rules have changed since the game first came out, I would be extremely annoyed if I had bought the books up until now. I would be thinking about all the up-to-date models I could have had instead.

As of right now (and to be clear, I'm saying what I do, not what anyone else should do!) I've got a copy of the book on my computer. I use that to make lists. The people I play with have no issues with it. All that being said, I like to play with the book actually in my hand. If I was using a digital version, it sounds like they are updated for free?

I can see your point of view, and why you think that. Here is my rebuttal:

The Horus Heresy will never be completed. All the rumor mongers say we're getting a new edition of 40K in 2017. Right now, HH Book VII Inferno is getting released in February, 2017. Rumor has it again that the next book will contain the Dark Angels. Forge World still has the White Scars, Blood Angels, and the Emperor himself. Updated HH Red Books for the new edition probably won't hit until next fall, if at all. If 8th Edition makes enough large, sweeping changes, Forge World may want to stick to 7th Ed until they are done with the HH. In which case, we might not get new Red Books until after the last HH book is written... And I bet the Seige of Terra with the Emperor won't get released until 2019, and a possible 9th edition of 40K. Think about that one for a second. Of course, this is all speculation, and FW could always change their minds. Like they could insert 2-3 more "Campaign Books" for the HH that detail the later crusade when Daemons really started to appear, and the Traitor Legions started to get warped by the taint of Chaos. There were several very important battles that led up to the Siege of Terra.

I hate to say it, but I just accept the fact that if I want to play 30K, I'm going to have to shell out £32 every year for a new Red Book. Considering how much a spend every year on this hobby, it's a drop in the bucket. Easily less then 10% of my total purchases for a year.

You are playing 30K, where the only "cheap" models are in the Calth and Prospero box sets, and that's only some infantry, terminators, and a contemptor dread. Anything else you want to use is coming from Forge World, which is a LOT of money. £32 for a book doesn't seem much to me when a tank goes for £50-£100+, a special unit with 5 models will cost you £50+... my point here is that 30K is expensive, more so than 40K, and if you can't afford it... maybe you shouldn't be playing it. It's like owning a sports car, and complaining about the high cost of insurance or gas. If you can't afford the insurance or gas, then you shouldn't buy that car.

 Tamwulf wrote:


I can see your point of view, and why you think that. Here is my rebuttal:

Oh thank goodness, a reasonable response. I assumed I would come back to this thread and do nothing but put people on ignore. I knew what I was walking into when I posted but it is still nice to be surprised. Thanks for that.

 Tamwulf wrote:

The Horus Heresy will never be completed.

Which is something I completely understand. I fully expect that to happen as well. What I mentioned earlier was more of a general rule than anything. I'm fine paying for new edition updates and that kind of thing. I've played 40k for over 10 years. I know the drill. You have to admit though, there is a difference between paying for stuff like that and paying for a Legion book that is 2 legions short. Honestly, If I still have models to buy, I might not be getting the books even then. From a practical stand point I see that I have two options.

1) Have as many models as possible and get the books in other ways
2) Have less models and have the actual books

I've chosen the option that works best for me. I can play bigger/better games. I've got a lot of stuff to model and paint. All of this helps make the game better for my opponent as well. FW gets the same amount of money from me in either case. I should note, in case it makes any difference to anyone, that I don't buy 3rd party models to substitute for actual 30k stuff. I like to support the company. As long as I haven't bought the books, I won't be buying 3rd party models.

 Tamwulf wrote:

You are playing 30K, where the only "cheap" models are in the Calth and Prospero box sets, and that's only some infantry, terminators, and a contemptor dread. £32 for a book doesn't seem much to me when a tank goes for £50-£100+

Honestly that makes it even worse. Like you said, the models are expensive. The more money I spend on books that I will have to replace anyways, the less money I'm spending on models. Two outdated books I didn't have to buy is another vehicle that I did buy.

 Tamwulf wrote:

my point here is that 30K is expensive, more so than 40K, and if you can't afford it... maybe you shouldn't be playing it. It's like owning a sports car, and complaining about the high cost of insurance or gas. If you can't afford the insurance or gas, then you shouldn't buy that car.

Where as I get your point, just not playing the game doesn't help me, my opponent, or the community at large. It also doesn't help FW, as they wouldn't be getting any money from me at all in that situation. Insurance and gas are necessary to my operating a car. Official rule books are not necessary to me playing the game (outside of a major tournament maybe, which I don't play). The models work just as well either way, the car doesn't.

Geronimo509 wrote:
Official rule books are not necessary to me playing the game (outside of a major tournament maybe, which I don't play).

It frightens me very much if you think you don't need official rule books to play 30K. Maybe not frighten. Concerned seems too tame a word. I'm not sure I'd play you. See, I've been in that tournament where the player was allowed to play his army list, and he didn't have a book. His army list was OP as and I even called him on it while we were playing. I even called the Judge over to show them all the errors he made in his list, and that he was making up rules for his army. He was even over points by about 10%. They shrugged, as it was well known that this local player couldn't afford the books, but they allowed him to play anyways, and I was an out of towner/stranger. Guess who won the tournament? The local player with his broken list.

As the chances of us ever playing are about nil, then there isn't much I can say or do to "force" you to buy the books. But to create a list and play a game without them? That's a matter for concern. If you want to copy a list, or use something like Battle Scribe, go for it. It's your game, and if your opponent is OK with it, awesome! What do you do if your opponent says something like "Oh, I have a special rule called Children of the Primarch that allows me to reroll misses in close combat." You reply "show me in your book" and he replies back "Why do I have to show you my rules in my book, when you can't do the same?" How do you know what models or RoW you have available to your Legion? How do you know what others can take? I mean, it boggles my mind to think that someone out there could actually make a list and play it properly without a rule book?

Think of the sports car as your models, the insurance as a rule book, and the gas as your dice. You can operate your car without insurance, but you're breaking the law and could face a heavy fine if you get pulled over. Similarly, you could play 30K with just your models and your dice, but if you ever get questioned on a rule? Then what?

Besides, do you really want to be that guy that is always borrowing everyone else's books when you want to look something up or make an army list? I hate to be the one that looks down on someone, but I immediately have a negative reaction to someone that can place several hundred, if not, a thousand dollars worth of models on a table, but refuses to pay $50 for a rulebook.

After seeing your reply, I think I gave the impression that I didn't have the rules available to me at all times.

I do actually have the rules printed out. So rules issues aren't really an issue. I think tournaments are a completely different issue than playing in the garage with the same group of people you have been for the last decade. At a tournament I would completely expect people to have the actual rule books, to prevent the exact situation you describe.

Like I said (or hoped to imply?), they way I play works well for the group I play with, which is all I really care. That was the point I was trying to get across to the OP, each persons situation is different. He is the expert on his situation, just like I am mine, and you are yours. If you're playing in tournaments, have the books. If you're playing with a group of friends who really don't care, well...

 Tamwulf wrote:

Think of the sports car as your models, the insurance as a rule book, and the gas as your dice. You can operate your car without insurance, but you're breaking the law and could face a heavy fine if you get pulled over. Similarly, you could play 30K with just your models and your dice, but if you ever get questioned on a rule? Then what?

There is a real world law saying that I have to have insurance to drive my car. My car doesn't physically run without gas. There is no real world law saying I need official books from FW to play with my models. There would presumably be a "law" that I need them in a tournament, in which case I would follow it.

 Tamwulf wrote:
I hate to be the one that looks down on someone, but I immediately have a negative reaction to someone that can place several hundred, if not, a thousand dollars worth of models on a table, but refuses to pay $50 for a rulebook.

You're entitled to your opinion, and I respect and understand it it to a certain extent. The people I play with don't feel the same way however, and neither do I. The only correction I'll make is that I refuse to pay for an incomplete $50 rule book now. I have no problem paying for a complete $50 rule book later. FW gets the same amount of money from me in the end, and me and my opponents get to see more of their models in the mean time.


As it were, I think we understand each other, we just disagree on this one. Which is fine. I just wanted to give the OP another perspective.

I think 2019 is extremely optimistic for FW finishing HH, too. Inferno is 2017, but at the rate they've been averaging, we're not guaranteed another book that year.

And we've heard the FW studio talking about books including:

Shadow Crusade
Signus/Thramas(?)
Mars/Mechanicum
etc.

None of those get them to Terra, and it also sounds like there will be multiple books covering the Solar War and Terra.

We could *easily* be looking at 2021 before HH is 'finished.'

Will the e-books be updated?

NivlacSupreme wrote:
Will the e-books be updated?

You would have to e-mail Forge World and ask them. The current Red books came out before they e-published them, so we, the players/consumers don't know if they will be updated or not (I have a feeling they will not be, just like the other e-Books that GW has made).

Is Dark Angels confirmed for Feb? I know that doesn't necessarily mean a model of Lion El Johnson, but it sure would be nice if it did...

Nope, Feb is book 7, which is prospero (so Sons, Wolves, Custodes, and Sisters).

Book 7 was SUPPOSED to be book 3, but that's beyond the point


Dark angels and blood angels are rumored to be expanded in Book 8.

I will be happy once book 7 drops so I can start my HH army my never play it but I want a small force