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So apparently they aren't on the best of terms because the Blood Angels hoarded the STC's for the Furioso Dreadnought variants and Baal Predator. So wouldn't that be a touch awkward when it comes to supplying them and training their Techmarines?

Just a thing I was wondering about. Any thoughts or comments are appreciated as always.

Well, since they're best buds with the Necrons now they just get the Void Dragon to pull strings...

Serious now, that does strike me as sensible. Would be nice if that was reflected in the crunch by them not having access to Techmarines or something like that (although from what I gather Blood Angels are far from the strongest Marine faction so giving them a little nerf would be uncool, if fluffy).

I wonder how far a Chapter's in-house manufacturing capabilities go. I'd imagine the Salamanders would be quite capable, but not heard about the Blood Angels.

Even the mechanicum isn't going to directly refuse to train techmarines of a 1st founding chapter. Especially when they have the loyalty of their successors and the adoration of the general imperium.
No one would side with them, and what sort of excuse would they give anyway? "They hoarded and refused to share the tech we wanted to hoard and refuse to share!"

It would be an interesting little verbal tidbit and could certainly be explored more. But in all actuality, I don't think the Mechanicus can really do anything about it.
I mean the Inquisition can't reprimand the space wolves, who have no foundings and far fewer allies. I can't see a reason why the Blood Angels shoudn't get the same treatment.
(I am aware that I intensely dislike space wolves. I am also aware that recent events may change the Inquisition/SW relationship)

I wonder about the relative power of a first founding chapter compared to the Ad Mech.

I'd wager that the Wolves' resistance to the Inquisition is due to pretty hefty plot armour and not much else (otherwise why would the Dark Angels be worried about their little secret if the Wolves are running around with full-blown mutants).

The Ad Mech might not necessarily outright refuse to arm them or train their marines, but they could absolutely pull strings and shaft the chapter that way. Shipments that get 'lost' on their way to the Blood Angels.

It's things like this that could really add to the intricacy of the background of 40k if the implications are thought through properly...

True, but to my knowledge the Blood Angels are the right mixture between having numerous successors, being positively adored by imperial citizenry, and not hiding their secrets, instead trying to help the imperium regardless.
The Ad Mech is certainly petty enough to do small stuff like that, it would definitely add an interesting relationship to the blood angels.
If they had too, I don't doubt the wider Imperium would choose the Mechanicus over a single 1st founding chapter, but more likely they would enforce some level of ceasefire, especially if the BA's successors and other astartes supported them.

About the wolves, I was referring to their spate with the Inquisition after Armageddon. I agree through, plot armour is still the major region why they haven't had a much harder time with it. Grimnar uses a fething daemon weapon for thrones sake.

I think people always read into that note a little too much, as there is no evidence of any real animosity between the two groups. Blood Angels have 43 Land Raiders, which is more than any other chapter. By comparison, the Ultramarines have 13 I think. They also have 53 Stormravens and 36 Dreadnoughts. They couldn't maintain an armoury like that if the Admech were actively working against them.

Besides, the Baal Predator has been a Blood Angel exclusive since the Great Crusade. Meaning its exclusivity was ordered by either the Emperor or Sanguinius. The Admech don't really have a leg to stand on against that kind of authority, so I see it as more of a "Damn, I wish we could get our hands on one of those" and not necessarily "feth those guys for not sharing".

 Orblivion wrote:
I think people always read into that note a little too much, as there is no evidence of any real animosity between the two groups. Blood Angels have 43 Land Raiders, which is more than any other chapter. By comparison, the Ultramarines have 13 I think. They also have 53 Stormravens and 36 Dreadnoughts. They couldn't maintain an armoury like that if the Admech were actively working against them.

Besides, the Baal Predator has been a Blood Angel exclusive since the Great Crusade. Meaning its exclusivity was ordered by either the Emperor or Sanguinius. The Admech don't really have a leg to stand on against that kind of authority, so I see it as more of a "Damn, I wish we could get our hands on one of those" and not necessarily "feth those guys for not sharing".

Interesting insights especially about them having special snowflake engines during the great crusade. Also, definitely possible that the animosity in the note has been blown out of proportion.

Saying that, my thought process is that it seems like ill-thought out fluff to provide something that would evidently cause animosity between the Blood Angels and the Ad Mech, and then not follow it through with the implications. It owuld be an interesting angle for the Blood Angels and general politicking in 40k, but it seems like it's been glossed over.

Also, I'm not entirely certain the Ad Mech would give a flying monkeys if the Baal Predator was a gift from Big E or his mutant son. The Ad Mech don't hold any special reverence for the Emperor or his primarchs, beyond the assumption (by the Imperials) that the Omnissiah is the emperor. The Ad Mech are more of a parallel human empire that's allied and intertwined with the Imperium than part of the Imperium themselves. They're bound by an entirely different set of dogmas.


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Yeah that makes a lot of sense

Ah yes, that spate. To me, that's one of the cooler parts of space wolf fluff, and actually fits with the inquisition trying to get rid of them.

Personally i rationalise it by saying that the wolves must be far greater in numbers than a standard chapter (which has now gone to pot with wrath of magnus)

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I wonder about the relative power of a first founding chapter compared to the Ad Mech.

The Ad Mech might not necessarily outright refuse to arm them or train their marines, but they could absolutely pull strings and shaft the chapter that way. Shipments that get 'lost' on their way to the Blood Angels.

..

The Ad Mech is all powerful in this case, but they have no real reason to completely abandon anyone. They can play things very subtlety. It doesnt even need to be lost shipments, it could just be preference. The Iron Hands and Salamanders seem to get orders delivered quicker and from more reliable/capable forgeworlds.

If a chapter gets on bad with the admech they will start to find their supplies have more defects, when their tech marines go off to train they go to less prominent forgeworlds to be trained by less experienced magos.

Of course, considering how little most of the Empire of Terra actually knows about technology and the inner workings of the Ad Mech a lot of that probably goes unnoticed.

 Exergy wrote:
The Ad Mech is all powerful in this case, but they have no real reason to completely abandon anyone. They can play things very subtlety. It doesnt even need to be lost shipments, it could just be preference.

Which certainly makes sense. Lucifer engines and Baal Predators would ofc be nice and shiny things for the AdMech to have, but it's not shiny enough to openly stiff a respected 1st Founding Chapter over. Supplying Space Marines is after all one of the duties of the AdMech under their compact with the IoM - real mishaps are probably common enough already that one doesn't need to add intentional ones to the mix.

Besides, the templates are safe under the eyes of properly AdMech-trained Techmarines and behind the guns of the entire Blood Angels Chapter. So technically they are in AdMech custody, just not up for grabs right now. Once the Chapter gets in some real trouble and pretty please needs a new BattleBarge, well, one can always hint that some generosity could move them up to number one on the list...

I think Mudrat summed it up nicely.

I think it is worth remembering there are very fractured factions within the AdMech, full of petty squabbles.

The jealousy of the Blood Angels over their Lucifer Engines might not have originated from the chapter as a whole; it could have been the AdMech Tech Marines within the chapter itself trying to play the power game within the AdMech and leverage preferential treatment?

I don't think there is any real evidence to show that there is a problem between the two groups.

The Admech MUST provide material and munitions to the astartes. It's part of the deal between Mars and Terra.

The admech MUST have certain BA STCs. How else are the Deathwatch running around with FURIOSO frag cannons?

I find it hard to believe that the Admech can't simply hack into BA archives or scavenge battlefields for BA tanks and weapons.

So BA have a special snow flake turret and a dread with a regular fist on a right arm. Not that big of a deal nor concern to the Admech.

 Orblivion wrote:
Blood Angels have 43 Land Raiders, which is more than any other chapter. By comparison, the Ultramarines have 13 I think.

According to Insignium Astartes most chapters have 20-30 Land Raiders and it's not uncommon for them to have more. The Ultramarines should have about 23 I think, the problem is a couple of codices back someone at GW copy-pasted the armoury numbers from the 3rd edition codex but didn't bother to include the company transport pools therefor omitting the Land Raiders on permanent assignment to the First Company which are in addition to the central armoury pool. The Aurora Chapter are renowned for having an armoury three times the size of most chapters, so could have twice as many Land Raiders as the Blood Angels. (GW has a long tradition of tweaking the TO&E seemingly not due to conscious decision but because of people doing their best to put their own spin on the chart, thereby corrupting the data. And it annoys the hell out of me.)