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Okay just watched a trailer for "The fall of Cadia" on youtube its out on 7th January. So what's going on ? Does this mean a total recanted 13th black crusade???

You mean other than the recanting that was done over 10 years ago?

This makes....what? the 3rd 13th black crusade?

I don't see how this is retconning - This sounds like the next crusade. As far as I remember, Cadia never fell.

Just rewatched it, it doesn't call it the 13th Black Crusade, my assumption was that this would be the 14th. It also calls it the crimson path, now that might simply mean a path of blood, but it could be another faction all together.

There's some salt over the retcon of the result of the 13th Black Crusade, some people are hoping its a retcon of the retcon I suppose.

Well, as for them turning time back to just before the 13th happened is what they have done the past what two editions of 40k, but would they completely scrap all that fine well worked out campaign, as in the background book The 13th black crusade released 2004, it held the campaign in the balance ( we know Chaos won) but it left it for you to make up your own campaigns from there. I thought with Traitors Hate they was just going to add to the rich history of the crusade but leave it still up in the air , because of the release of traitors hate this has to be part of a rethink maybe, or a retelling of the 13th black crusade maybe!?!?

Great book this , be a pity if they scrap the lot

Just found this pic from Bell of lost soles, looks like its a new 13th black crusade campaign book out on 14th Jan, now that's how bring in the new year

 Backspacehacker wrote:
This makes....what? the 3rd 13th black crusade?

Why third ? They did it only once IIRC. They did the campaign, and then freezed everything a moment before.

I imagine if Cadia falls then so does Ulthwe:( if they do go down hopefully it will be along side the Cadians in a glorious last stand.

If Cadia falls, the wolves are probably going to be in a pretty sorry shape too, as they are most likely going to be one of the first forces to respond

Would be amazing to if they could eventually move the storyline forwards it opens up so many things that could be done, I truly don't think 40k needs a "end times" but maybe a modern war on the scale of the Hh would be a thing of wonder, with all the new factions carving up a bit of the old imperium's empire as well , could be glorious!

Was Abbadon ever kicked off Cadia in the 13th crusade?

I thought things just sort of ground to a halt with Chaos and the Imperium fighting over Cadia.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Was Abbadon ever kicked off Cadia in the 13th crusade?

I thought things just sort of ground to a halt with Chaos and the Imperium fighting over Cadia.

It did. The fighting on the ground ended more or less in a stalemate. The only thing really keeping the system in Imperial hands was the fact that the Imperial Navy held space superiority (The Armless Wonder had to move his big guns out of Cadian space after the Necrons showed up, and waxed one of the Blackstone Fortresses he captured from the Imperium). Chaos did manage to do some serious damage in the Segmentum Obscurus, stir up trouble down by the Maelstrom as a distraction, get a solid foothold on Cadia, scored some primo new daemon worlds, and kill Eldrad. It was pretty much a minor Chaos victory, to be honest. But like Failbaddon's previous jaunts, it was just another step in his long term plans, rather than a serious push toward Terra.


Considering that the C'Tan/Necron pylons on Cadia are in the process of failing, the planet was pretty well screwed from the outset.

The ground battle was not a stalemate. GW actually never used that word in describing the results of the campaign. The word has only ever appeared when players tried to spin the Imperial defeat in the ground warzones into something less.

All the results are presented as well as the WD writeup, all unedited:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392010.page

icn1982 wrote:
It also calls it the crimson path, now that might simply mean a path of blood, but it could be another faction all together.

The Crimson Path is Abaddon's plan to spread the Eye of Terror in his wake as he strikes towards Terra. This would presumably give him an almost unassailable corridor of Warp infused pace behind him and safeguard his logistics. It would also make what territory he conquers unrecoverable to the Imperium.

I suppose we will see in January, but if I were to guess, we'll see a revised/retconned/completed version of the old 13th Black Crusade storyline, adjusted to account for the ways the wider backstory has been filled out in the intervening decade and a bit, particularly the whole Crimson Path business.

Personally, the thing I'd like most would be for GW to be using this as an in-universe excuse to revamp the Guard range by replacing the old stumpy Cadian kits with a uniform range of (relatively) convincingly-proportioned Guardsmen. I wouldn't say no to a plastic Abaddon and a Despoilers/Justaerin set either.

I was hoping for a new Chaos Marines 'Dex personally. Some units desperately need buffing and most of the army needs new models.

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
I was hoping for a new Chaos Marines 'Dex personally. Some units desperately need buffing and most of the army needs new models.

If rumours are to be believed we may never get a new codex again.

~warscrolls~

I hope at least we get to know the forces in detail on both sides at play in this new reimagining of the 13th black crusade, one of the best bits of the fluff of the last telling of this crusade was you could look and which chapter,regiment,adMec, was on which system and which planet, very detailed information for such a wide campaign.

Iracundus wrote:
The ground battle was not a stalemate. GW actually never used that word in describing the results of the campaign. The word has only ever appeared when players tried to spin the Imperial defeat in the ground warzones into something less.

All the results are presented as well as the WD writeup, all unedited:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392010.page

I have read that already, In fact, it's pretty much the same thing on the 40k Wiki, except the Wiki's article is in narrative form (like a historical account). The Lexicanum write-up is more of an outline, rather than a detailed "historical" account, as opposed to the 40k Wiki.



And no offense, but just because they didn't use the word "stalemate" is irrelevant. Because, in the narrative, that's what ended up happening on Cadia proper. The Despoiler got his foothold on Cadia. But Creed's forces were still holding the line, and Abbaddon's forces hadn't been able to dislodge the Imperium from Cadia. Chaos hold air superiority, but the Imperial Navy holds space superiority in the Cadian system.


That's the definition of an impasse or stalemate. There is no spin to it from alleged butthurt Imperium fanbois. Just simple facts.

The 40k wiki spins it just as all of the 3rd party sites that paraphrase have done. The end of campaign newsletter, reproduced in the link below, says "Chaos rules the skies above Cadia."

http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/eyeofterror/newsletter_f.html

Final Newsletter

Cadia
The bleak moors of Cadia are reduced to a barren, crater-pocked wasteland, blasted by orbital torpedoes, super-heavy artillery and the footfall of titans. The Vilklas and Andur defence lines have collapsed under the relentless pressure of a million frenzied cultists, traitors and mutants, and the Cadian High Command has been forced to relocate to Kasr Gallan on the far side of the Caducades Sea. Though the Imperial Navy is in control of the inter-system space lanes, Chaos rules the skies above Cadia since the orbital defences fell in the opening days of the Black Crusade. The defenders of Cadia are now deployed around Kasr Gallan and throughout the Wastes, resolute that not a backward step shall be taken. The order is given- ‘stand at Cadia, or damn the Imperium of Mankind to the depredations of Chaos for all eternity’.

The space lanes
The Imperial Navy has fought with courage and vigour throughout the war, ruthlessly taking the battle to the enemy wherever it encountered them. Admiral Quarren has been hailed a true hero of the Imperium, for his masterful defence of the space lanes was all that stood between survival, and utter defeat for the Imperium. Though Cadia is besieged, the Imperial Navy commands space, and is able to offer support to beleaguered forces on the ground. The only question is whether the rapid redeployment of almost the entirety of Battle Fleet Gothic, along with a substantial proportion of Battle Fleet Solar will leave the Navy dangerously overstretched elsewhere and unable to maintain the level of operations required to hold the line at the Cadian Gate.

It explicitly says Chaos rules the skies above Cadia. The Imperium has gained space superiority in the operational theater as a whole through the reinforcements but this is admitted to leave the Imperium exposed elsewhere, and that the Imperial Navy is able to offer support to Imperial forces on Cadia. Support, not suddenly blasting Chaos off Cadia with impunity from orbit. Again, in the 40K universe, space power is not supreme.

Where people consistently get mixed up is equating the sector control values (the inter system space lanes referred to in the newsletter) with the individual star system control value. As my reproduction of the official campaign results showed, the Imperium had the lead at sector level but the Cadia system control level favored Chaos. The 40k Wiki is inaccurate as they portray it as if the Imperium had the advantage and we're just bombarding Chaos forces on Cadia as if they were sitting ducks. That is what I mean when I say the third party sites are unreliable. They have taken the existing GW material and interpreted or paraphrased it to favor the Imperium more than what GW wrote.

Creed was forced to pull a Dunkirk like retreat across the sea to Kasr Gallan after the Vilklas and Andur defense lines collapsed. That is not holding the line. Having a sole standing bastion is not a stalemate when the Imperium started with virtually the entire planet under firm control. The initial 95% Imperial Control was knocked down to 39.8%. That is far more significant than if it had gone from 50% to 39.8%.

Your "facts" just like many other over the years is inaccurate and based on hearsay and paraphrased third party sources that have spun the results to be more positive for the Imperium than what GW actually published. That is why Lexicanum and 40K Wiki are not good reference sources. They paraphrase and include fan speculation or biases into their writing and do not quote directly. Unless you look at the original source, you have no idea whether it really said what they claim it said. Just look in my original linked thread for an example of Imperial player denial and alleging of conspiracy. The official GW results as released in WD said a minor victory for the forces of Disorder. Not draw. Not stalemate. The Imperial Control values did not start the campaign midway at 50% but often far in the Imperium's favor yet many war zones still ended up far below 50%. I do not think GW was requiring a complete wipe of all zones down to 0 to count as a victory for Disorder/Chaos.

Only players have ever used words like stalemate or draw when discussing the campaign results and almost invariably this comes down to somebody refusing to admit that the Imperium actually lost a worldwide campaign. Trying to spin the other side's minor victory to "really mean" a draw would be seen as bad sportsmanship in a tabletop game and it is just as bad in a worldwide campaign setting. A minor victory/minor defeat is not the same as a draw/stalemate, and it is significant that not a single GW source actually uses those draw/stalemate words in describing the outcome of the campaign. Losing a soccer match by 0-1 is a minor loss but it is still a loss, not a draw.

Meanwhile, the Eldar stomped Chaos into dust in the Webway and even ended up counter-attacking the Eye of Terror so successfully that they turned some of it sane again. Good times... which were then rewarded by GW having our main character killed off. Not so good times.

 Robin5t wrote:
Meanwhile, the Eldar stomped Chaos into dust in the Webway and even ended up counter-attacking the Eye of Terror so successfully that they turned some of it sane again. Good times... which were then rewarded by GW having our main character killed off. Not so good times.

Yes, this seemed to be the phase when GW seemed to equate "declining race" or "dying race" to incompetent. Granted, the campaign mechanics and set up pitting Craftworld Eldar vs. Thousand Sons and Dark Eldar was hardly an even match up given player numbers and faction popularity in that era. This was not helped by at least some Dark Eldar taking a stance of Eldar before any humans, and deciding to still fight against the Thousand Sons. Nonetheless, yes, the Eldar seemed to get the short end of the stick given their performance.

In more recent years with lore references and novels like Valedor, GW seems to at times give hints of hope to the Eldar.

 Lord Fishface wrote:
I suppose we will see in January, but if I were to guess, we'll see a revised/retconned/completed version of the old 13th Black Crusade storyline, adjusted to account for the ways the wider backstory has been filled out in the intervening decade and a bit, particularly the whole Crimson Path business.

Personally, the thing I'd like most would be for GW to be using this as an in-universe excuse to revamp the Guard range by replacing the old stumpy Cadian kits with a uniform range of (relatively) convincingly-proportioned Guardsmen. I wouldn't say no to a plastic Abaddon and a Despoilers/Justaerin set either.

This please

Although, as an avid converter I'm slightly concerned with the growing prevalence of mono-posed models. It's a lot trickier to kitbash stuff if it's not modular (arms, legs, torso, head all separate and at least vaguely interchangeable).

Iracundus wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
Meanwhile, the Eldar stomped Chaos into dust in the Webway and even ended up counter-attacking the Eye of Terror so successfully that they turned some of it sane again. Good times... which were then rewarded by GW having our main character killed off. Not so good times.

Yes, this seemed to be the phase when GW seemed to equate "declining race" or "dying race" to incompetent. Granted, the campaign mechanics and set up pitting Craftworld Eldar vs. Thousand Sons and Dark Eldar was hardly an even match up given player numbers and faction popularity in that era. This was not helped by at least some Dark Eldar taking a stance of Eldar before any humans, and deciding to still fight against the Thousand Sons. Nonetheless, yes, the Eldar seemed to get the short end of the stick given their performance.

In more recent years with lore references and novels like Valedor, GW seems to at times give hints of hope to the Eldar.

Haha! Is that not the most perfectly 'Eldar' thing to do.

'What?! You want us to fight alongside these filthy Mon-Keigh? Screw that, lets stab them in the back and do what we want.'

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Yes, this seemed to be the phase when GW seemed to equate "declining race" or "dying race" to incompetent. Granted, the campaign mechanics and set up pitting Craftworld Eldar vs. Thousand Sons and Dark Eldar was hardly an even match up given player numbers and faction popularity in that era. This was not helped by at least some Dark Eldar taking a stance of Eldar before any humans, and deciding to still fight against the Thousand Sons. Nonetheless, yes, the Eldar seemed to get the short end of the stick given their performance.

In more recent years with lore references and novels like Valedor, GW seems to at times give hints of hope to the Eldar.

Haha! Is that not the most perfectly 'Eldar' thing to do.

'What?! You want us to fight alongside these filthy Mon-Keigh? Screw that, lets stab them in the back and do what we want.'

Iracundus wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Haha! Is that not the most perfectly 'Eldar' thing to do.

'What?! You want us to fight alongside these filthy Mon-Keigh? Screw that, lets stab them in the back and do what we want.'

GW misread to what extent Dark Eldar players didn't want to just be Chaos lackeys. Chaos lackeys also made no sense given how Dark Eldar hate and fear Slaanesh, and how they bear no love for the other Chaos gods either, though again this campaign was in the era when Dark Eldar background was still very sparse, and when it was still quite easy to mistakenly think of Dark Eldar as Chaos Eldar.

Nonetheless, this was resulted in a massive lopsided battle in the Webway in the Eye of Terror campaign. Arguably one of if not the most popular xenos factions in 40K paired against the rare Thousand Sons, and in war zones where the campaign mechanics favored simple brute force numbers with no cascade threshold effect. The outcome of the Webway part of the campaign was never really in doubt. It was just a matter of how much the Eldar would steamroller over their opponents, not whether they would win or not.

Yeah that definitely fits. Even in a campaign that accounts for relative numbers of players, pit the Eldar against the TSons these days and I'm fairly certain who would wreck face.

I'd like to see them do something similar again as a narrative-forming player campaign is a stunning idea. It just needs to be implemented properly...

Also, I wonder if the outcome of that is what's nudged the fluff writers into making the Dark Eldar more 'eldar supremacist' than 'chaos eldar'. If so, that's a most welcome change

When the Eldar players figured out they could post wins in the Eye of Terror and decided 'let's take it back', though, that was awesome.

I hold out some hope that they'll get to do something equally awesome in the new storyline - though it's far more likely that they'll probably just end up dying in droves to fail at prophecies again while someone beats up an Avatar of Khaine. Sigh.

Is there a time where an Avatar of Khaine is not getting beaten up by some daemon, space marine or grot?

 mrhappyface wrote:
Is there a time where an Avatar of Khaine is not getting beaten up by some daemon, space marine or grot?

It does okay in Valedor. Solos a Tyranid Swarm for a while then the Eldar come back to finish the job. Not a good representation but better than some.