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OK. Let me get this straight. The Lion is often rated in the top 5 combatants among the Primarchs and Curze is lucky to be ranked in the upper 10.
In this story:
1) The Lion cheat-shots Curze, running him through with a sword, to the hilt, in the gut;
2) after some back and forth, Curze grapples The Lion,
3) Curze proceeds to tear the Lion a new donkey-cave- as in, Curze would have killed the Lion without Corswain putting a sword through Curze's spine
Curze out-fights the Lion with a gut-wound, no problem. How is the Lion a better fighter than Curze... or even one of the better fighters?
Curze isn't lucky to be top ten, Dorn and Corax both bricked it at the idea of fighting him a second time. His and the Lion's rivalry tends to favour whichever legion is the focus of the story, rather than focus on any notion of "who's harder."
Keep in mind that the Lion's speciality was in his swordsmanship and while he was no pushover in hand-to-hand, Curze is in a completely different level when it comes to brawls. He beat the crap out of the Dorn the first time since he used his bare hands.
Curze almost killing the Lion in that moment that you mentioned is contrasted in Prince of Crows where Curze is heavily wounded by the Lion from the Dark Angels ambush. Afterwards, when he recovers he is fighting him one on one using his claws while the Lion uses his sword. In a fair fight with weapons, its described that Curze was being methodically countered by the Lion's almost clinical precision, eventually forcing Curze to flee when his own men began to be overrun by Dark Angels reinforcements.
Because Lion has beaten Curze more often then Curze has beaten him. Additionally, Lions wins have more often been unquestionably decisive.
The author of that story has also clarified that Curze was winning at that moment-that it could have easily flipped,
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/21 08:30:56
My $0.02, which since 1992 has rounded to nothing. Take with salt.
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EmpNortonII wrote: OK. Let me get this straight. The Lion is often rated in the top 5 combatants among the Primarchs and Curze is lucky to be ranked in the upper 10.
Curze alternates between being the nastiest fighter in the galaxy and being a total whimp. Spacebatman has his dark knight side and his bruce wayne side.
Or maybe it has something to do with his visions. If he sees himself winning then he wins, if he sees himself losing then he loses.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
My $0.02, which since 1992 has rounded to nothing. Take with salt.
Elysian Drop Troops, Dark Angels, 30K
Mercenaries, Retribution
Ten Thunders, Neverborn
You're missing the follow-up to Savage Weapons, Prince of Crows.
Spoiler:
After the events on Tsagualsa, the two Primarchs fight a second time and the Lion cuts Curze up so bad he ends up in a coma. He's out cold for most of the events in Prince of Crows, bleeding from a dozen wounds that would have been mortal for any normal astartes (and his apothecaries don't know how to patch him up because the anatomy of a Primarch is completely different).
So the fight in Savage Weapons is just the first time they face off against each other. The second time has much more serious consequences for the Night Lords legion.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/22 15:57:45
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
JamesY wrote: Curze isn't lucky to be top ten, Dorn and Corax both bricked it at the idea of fighting him a second time. His and the Lion's rivalry tends to favour whichever legion is the focus of the story, rather than focus on any notion of "who's harder."
Curze attacked Dorn when he wasn't expecting a fight. Dorn's later fear of Curze wasn't to do with their respective combat prowess. He disregards Angron after all. Corax retreated from Curze at the Dropsite Massacre when he was tired and would have been up against two Primarchs. Bad odds for any Primarch. Unless there are more fights between them I'm unware of?
JamesY wrote: Curze isn't lucky to be top ten, Dorn and Corax both bricked it at the idea of fighting him a second time. His and the Lion's rivalry tends to favour whichever legion is the focus of the story, rather than focus on any notion of "who's harder."
Curze attacked Dorn when he wasn't expecting a fight. Dorn's later fear of Curze wasn't to do with their respective combat prowess. He disregards Angron after all. Corax retreated from Curze at the Dropsite Massacre when he was tired and would have been up against two Primarchs. Bad odds for any Primarch. Unless there are more fights between them I'm unware of?
We haven't seen the fight between Dorn and Curze have we? Just the end. In Deliverance Lost Corax is worried about what would happen if he had to fight him again as he knew he was outmatched. I think Curze's madness is important to his performance in the fluff, if he's lost it he getting beaten, if he's together he's going to win. Handy excuse for inconsistencies.
JamesY wrote: Curze isn't lucky to be top ten, Dorn and Corax both bricked it at the idea of fighting him a second time. His and the Lion's rivalry tends to favour whichever legion is the focus of the story, rather than focus on any notion of "who's harder."
Curze attacked Dorn when he wasn't expecting a fight. Dorn's later fear of Curze wasn't to do with their respective combat prowess.
Yeah... in Savage Weapons, The Lion ambushes Curze and Curze still puts that bitch on his back and would have choked him to death.... after taking a sword wound to the gut from the Lion.
Dorn confronted Curze because *Curze had a vision about the Primarchs killing each other* that Fulgrim told Dorn about. If Dorn wasn't dumber than the average Imperial Guardsman, he might have concluded that the flying rodent gak insane serial killer who talked about war between the Primarchs *might* hit him. Prior to this point, the Lion and Russ had a friendly duel that ended with Russ being knocked unconscious (The Lion being a fan of cheap shots, apparently). Primarch-on-primarch violence clearly wasn't unthinkable.
That, and as Savage Weapons taught us, being caught by surprise is no excuse. Curze won after being stabbed in the gut. Dorn was damned near killed by an unarmed Curze, if I remember correctly.
That's kind of bad writing, then, if that's what he intended. The Lion wasn't likely to magically get to his feet and start sword-fighting again with Curze on top of him choking him to death. I have a hard time seeing how the fight would flip in the Lion's favor after that- especially since it took a sword to the spine for them to be on the equally-defeated footing the story ends on. Maybe the Lion could have said he was switching to Chaos and sucker-punched Curze, since the Lion is an honor-less bastard, even compared to his brothers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/22 23:09:08
Given that Primarchs can survive space without helmets, you really think choking is an issue?
The Lion wasn't likely to magically get to his feet and start sword-fighting again with Curze on top of him choking him to death.
From ADB
how many squillions of fights between heroes/characters/protagonists/villains have we seen where the guy on the losing side has a second wind (cracking a rock against the head of the guy strangling him) and turns the tide a moment later.
I will admit that when I read that story I thought it was looking bad for the Lion.
But, this is the only 1-1 fight with the Lion that Curze comes out on top-Lion thrashes him twice over.
My $0.02, which since 1992 has rounded to nothing. Take with salt.
Elysian Drop Troops, Dark Angels, 30K
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We haven't seen the fight between Dorn and Curze have we? Just the end. In Deliverance Lost Corax is worried about what would happen if he had to fight him again as he knew he was outmatched. I think Curze's madness is important to his performance in the fluff, if he's lost it he getting beaten, if he's together he's going to win. Handy excuse for inconsistencies.
There were parts about how Dorn went into confront him and how Curze was found crouched on top of his unarmoured body having gouged holes in him.
EmpNortonII wrote:Yeah... in Savage Weapons, The Lion ambushes Curze and Curze still puts that bitch on his back and would have choked him to death.... after taking a sword wound to the gut from the Lion.
Dorn confronted Curze because *Curze had a vision about the Primarchs killing each other* that Fulgrim told Dorn about. If Dorn wasn't dumber than the average Imperial Guardsman, he might have concluded that the flying rodent gak insane serial killer who talked about war between the Primarchs *might* hit him. Prior to this point, the Lion and Russ had a friendly duel that ended with Russ being knocked unconscious (The Lion being a fan of cheap shots, apparently). Primarch-on-primarch violence clearly wasn't unthinkable.
That, and as Savage Weapons taught us, being caught by surprise is no excuse. Curze won after being stabbed in the gut. Dorn was damned near killed by an unarmed Curze, if I remember correctly.
Might have choked to death. Or the Lion may have hit him with a rock. Or kicked him off. Or put his thumbs into his eyes. Curze had the advantage; that doesn't mean he was bound to win.
Curze told Fulgrim about his visions and Fulgrim told others (presumably Dorn). Dorn confronts him and then Curze attacks him. I don't recall Curze being said to have attacked Imperial force before so Dorn not anticipating Curze trying to kill him is perfectly reasonable. Every Primarch killed vast numbers of xenos and non-compliment humans. Curze's track record at that point wasn't that bad. The Lion and the Russ punching each other was entirely different (also Russ started the fight with a cheap shot so the Lion ending it with one isn't to be unexpected).
KiloFiX wrote: On a slightly related note, does anyone find it interesting that Curze has fought:
The Lion
Dorn
Sanguinius
Corax
Vulcan
Guilliman
He never got into a fight with any of the future traitor primarchs?
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
@somerandomevilguy that's my point, we haven't actually had the fight itself described to know if it was a straight up fist fight, or if Dorn was sucker punched and started unfairly. All we know is that it left a mark on Dorn.
Lion El'Jonson defeats Konrad in a duel in Angels of Caliban (actually the second time he beats him), literally breaks his back and hauls him in chains to Imperium Secundus.
He could have easily killed him and instead deliberately spares his life.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/27 12:21:45
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
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Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.