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I'm not sure if this should go in the Proposed rules or not. Although I am proposing a rules change, I mainly want to discuss why E-Flamers are the way they are.

So their main issue is that they have Heavy weapons with such short range that they will rarely get full potential out of them.
On their Chariots, this isn't an issue since they become Relentless, but they also become super easy to kill as they cannot join a unit

The obvious answer was to make them Jet-pack infantry since A) it would give them Relentless and B) regular Flamers are Jump infantry, so it would have bridged the movement gap a bit
But no, GW decided to errata E-Flamers as Jump Infantry just like regular Flamers. While it's an improvement, it is still really hard to ever use their weapons.
It occurs to me that another option could have been done. Keep E-Flamers as infantry like their data slate says, but give them the option to take a Disc.
Afterall, Tzeentch gives Discs to his most "Exatled" minions, so why not Exalted Flamers? Now they could keep up with Flamers/Screamers AND still shoot
And as a bonus, the freakin' box that the E-Flamers comes with actually has an extra Disc for him to ride on. No extra modeling required

So my question is Why? Why is either solution not within GW's scope of thinking? Or at least there is no evidence that it is.
Or do they realize just how powerful this option would actually be and intentionally held back?

-

Like most confusing things it was probably a last-minute patch that didn't get planned very well.

It would be pretty op.. All things considered.

A t4 3 wound unit with a 5++ that can be spammed with a likelihood of str6 ap3 torrent and str 10 ap2 random shots, on a jetbike for 75 points each? In an army where invulnerable saves can and will be buffed, other disciplines can be accessed to buff them in other ways, and the models themselves can split up in the movement phase as they wish and target whatever is in range? Not to mention he would get t5 from the disc, making instant death much less worrisome.

I think it would be a bit too much personally, as sweet as it would be.

Here's a sample list for giggles:

Daemons CAD

Lord of change, ml3, impossible robes, the usual rewards

13 horrors

12 horrors

9 screamers

Herald of tzeentch lvl 3, disc, paradox,

Herald of tzeentch lvl3, disc

Warpflame Host

Herald of tzeentch, ml3, disc

9 exalted flamers with discs

1850 pts. Big dirty buffable splittable deathstar.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
It would be pretty op.. All things considered.

A t4 3 wound unit with a 5++ that can be spammed with a likelihood of str6 ap3 torrent and str 10 ap2 random shots, on a jetbike for 75 points each? In an army where invulnerable saves can and will be buffed, other disciplines can be accessed to buff them in other ways, and the models themselves can split up in the movement phase as they wish and target whatever is in range? Not to mention he would get t5 from the disc, making instant death much less worrisome.

I think it would be a bit too much personally, as sweet as it would be.

I'm not sure how OP that would be given that the exact same model on a 3-HP 10-10-10 Fast Skimmer Chariot with a Daemonic Invulnerable save is all of 100pts. (Given that both models have the exact same save the AV-10 vehicle is effectively just making the Exalted Flamer T6 and making his interactions with Instant Death wonkier.)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
It would be pretty op.. All things considered.

A t4 3 wound unit with a 5++ that can be spammed with a likelihood of str6 ap3 torrent and str 10 ap2 random shots, on a jetbike for 75 points each? In an army where invulnerable saves can and will be buffed, other disciplines can be accessed to buff them in other ways, and the models themselves can split up in the movement phase as they wish and target whatever is in range? Not to mention he would get t5 from the disc, making instant death much less worrisome.

I think it would be a bit too much personally, as sweet as it would be.

I'm not sure how OP that would be given that the exact same model on a 3-HP 10-10-10 Fast Skimmer Chariot with a Daemonic Invulnerable save is all of 100pts. (Given that both models have the exact same save the AV-10 vehicle is effectively just making the Exalted Flamer T6 and making his interactions with Instant Death wonkier.)

I guess it would require playtesting to see. My burning chariots always die pretty quickly, and they aren't nearly as good of a target for buffs because they have to be by themselves whereas prescience on a deathstar like i built in the list above is much better than casting it on a single chariot. It's also much easier to hide it if you're running a small group, and has the benefit of splitting up to cap objectives or blast different units.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
It would be pretty op.. All things considered.

A t4 3 wound unit with a 5++ that can be spammed with a likelihood of str6 ap3 torrent and str 10 ap2 random shots, on a jetbike for 75 points each? In an army where invulnerable saves can and will be buffed, other disciplines can be accessed to buff them in other ways, and the models themselves can split up in the movement phase as they wish and target whatever is in range? Not to mention he would get t5 from the disc, making instant death much less worrisome.

I think it would be a bit too much personally, as sweet as it would be.

I'm not sure how OP that would be given that the exact same model on a 3-HP 10-10-10 Fast Skimmer Chariot with a Daemonic Invulnerable save is all of 100pts. (Given that both models have the exact same save the AV-10 vehicle is effectively just making the Exalted Flamer T6 and making his interactions with Instant Death wonkier.)

I guess it would require playtesting to see. My burning chariots always die pretty quickly, and they aren't nearly as good of a target for buffs because they have to be by themselves whereas prescience on a deathstar like i built in the list above is much better than casting it on a single chariot. It's also much easier to hide it if you're running a small group, and has the benefit of splitting up to cap objectives or blast different units.

I'd still call +2T and d6 S6 Hammer of Wrath hits worth the 25pts on top of losing Independent Character, especially given that a Herald has to pay 25pts for a Disc and 50pts for a Burning Chariot.

That said playtesting would be necessary, and I do think Daemons need vehicle-squadron-IC (if only to make Slaaneshi chariot armies cooler), so I guess we'd have to see.

But... How many heralds have you seen played on a burning chariot? Haha

It may cost 25 more points, but i think the disc is pretty obviously the better option given the choices the daemons have for bodyguards and buffing. I wish the burning chariot was better in practice, because it's such a sweet model.

Also, it maybe can be considered +2T, but if you're using that profile you can also lose all your hullpoints in one go. i honestly think that for durability, most of the time constant t5 + mobility for 25 is better than Av10 and mobility for 50 because you dont have to worry about any type of "instant death" until you get to str10, and you can outfit 2 flamers with a disc for the same points while allowing them to travel with ablative wounds that can move the same speed, WHILE buffing the entire unit so it can do its job better, retaining the ability to split and join as you please, and avoiding the crippling vehicle damage table. Not to mention the same codex contains other sort of spammable characters on jetbikes that are powerful buffing platforms and not too expensive themselves.

Even if they were both 25 points... I would always take the disc. Just my opinion though

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
But... How many heralds have you seen played on a burning chariot? Haha

It may cost 25 more points, but i think the disc is pretty obviously the better option given the choices the daemons have for bodyguards and buffing. I wish the burning chariot was better in practice, because it's such a sweet model.

Also, it maybe can be considered +2T, but if you're using that profile you can also lose all your hullpoints in one go. i honestly think that for durability, most of the time constant t5 + mobility for 25 is better than Av10 and mobility for 50 because you dont have to worry about any type of "instant death" until you get to str10, and you can outfit 2 flamers with a disc for the same points while allowing them to travel with ablative wounds that can move the same speed, WHILE buffing the entire unit so it can do its job better.

Just my opinion though

Pretty much. If chariots could have Vehicle-IC and form squadrons it might be a different situation.

(I'm trying to think of any comparably-armed jetbikes to weigh it against and I'm coming up short. Having a S5/AP3 torrent flamer in the first place puts it in a league of its own already. We could take two Joakero or two Obliterators as having comparable armament but the range, access to transports, and other available guns are throwing me for a loop when it comes to trying to compare durability/mobility.)

Another thing to think about is the rest of the synergy with daemons involving reserves. The oracular dais, instruments, banners, cursed earth help them greatly, and if they have relentless base you're quite reliably killing a wraithknight or equivalent in one round of shooting. The rest of the army can ensure the flamers aren't just sitting there in the breeze afterwards as well by buffing their survivability.

The more i think about it, it just seems a little too good... Kinda like the daemons version of a scatterbike or gravcents. Now that doesn't mean it doesn't have any business being in the game as a whole... I just don't think it's good for the daemon codex balance in general.