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With all the new options from Traitor Legions, CSM have a ton of cool choices and like everyone else, I have been coming up with all kinds of cool combinations. One thing I have noticed is that regardless if which legion or formation I am working with, fitting air support of some kind without a CAD has been the hardest part. Now I am not saying CSM doesn't have good air support, just that when I am trying to squeeze in a couple formations, I usually have trouble finding air support that doesn't explicitly come within the formations I am already using. So my question is, if the particular formations you are basing your army around don't have air support already, what do you use to plug the gap when points are more than likely an issue. If it is any help, I usually play 2000 point games.

(I don't have the book) ... but, I thought most detachments allows for Heldrakes...

I know Hades 'drakes are pooh' pooh'ed, but if you're concerned with flyers in your meta, Hades 'drakes (+vector strikes) can do a servicable job.

 whembly wrote:


(I don't have the book) ... but, I thought most detachments allows for Heldrakes...

Not as part of the Chaos Warband formation - you'd need to take the additional Heldrake Terror Pack formation, which means you need to take at least 2. Bit of a pain, I've only got (and only want) 1. Also once you've paid for all the compulsory stuff in the Warband and then 2 or more Heldrakes, you'll struggle to fit anything else in to the list unless you're playing big armies.

Hence my issue. As of now, autocannon havocs behind a ADL with a quadcannon is my go to anti-air. I love my fire raptor and use to use it all the time, but now I'm not entirely sure if I am allowed to take one in a CAD thatsbusing legion rules.

It technically shouldn't be AA, but a laser Vindicator standing still has 3 TL S9 AP1 Ordnance shots. That's going to land .9 shots total, which is almost one.

Chaos doesent have any dedicated AA, but as already suggested we have Autocannons or the Forgefiend. I also have luck using Obliterators and their twin linked weapons, or assault cannons.

Prescience on autocannon havocs would make 8 twin linked s7 shots. It would also be a versatile unit in terms of what it threatens, and what jobs it can do. As to whether the unit make its points back, i do not know. I have not tried.


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Also Iron Warriors autocannon havocs will be shooting s8 shots at flying vehicles. And any other vehicle.

Havocs are great and are what I usually use, just I can't always get them in a formation and that's when I run in to problems. I'm not even looking for dedicated anti-air, its just that when I am looking at my list to see what they are missing and what I should spend the final couple hundred points on, its usually some kind of air support, which is the hardest to include by itself when not using a CAD. The double heldrake formation has been mentioned, but that's 340 points I don't always have.

I tried renegade knight with the double gattling canon works rather good. or you can take the anti air weapon on it.

You might be able to cram a havoc squad or two if you use that warband formation with spawn if you need points. Then you got a decurion detachment! The marines are more or less tax depending on which legion you are running.

2 Hades Cannon Forgefiend. It puts out 8 S8 AP shots a turn. Pop deamonforge and that's a rerollable 6+\

macluvin wrote:Prescience on autocannon havocs would make 8 twin linked s7 shots. It would also be a versatile unit in terms of what it threatens, and what jobs it can do. As to whether the unit make its points back, i do not know. I have not tried.


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Also Iron Warriors autocannon havocs will be shooting s8 shots at flying vehicles. And any other vehicle.

Why are Iron Warriors Havoks Str8 against fliers or other vehicles?

whembly wrote:

(I don't have the book) ... but, I thought most detachments allows for Heldrakes...

I know Hades 'drakes are pooh' pooh'ed, but if you're concerned with flyers in your meta, Hades 'drakes (+vector strikes) can do a servicable job.

They're pooh pooh'ed for a reason. 4x BS3 Str8 AP4 shots is really nothing special in terms of AA for 170 points. While str8 is nice against fliers, the limited number of shots and bad BS isn't. Comapre it to a stormtalons (which, IMHO, is the gold standard against which dual purpose fliers should be measured) it does a poor job for a 50% points increase. I'd much rather be relying on the vector strikes and have the baleflamer available. Also IIRC, if your group is one of the three who actually uses DFtS, the 'Drake loses skyfire, so now your 4 shots are BS1 (which would also make the stormtalon vs Heldrake flier game incredibly one sided, but that's not the point), though having barely read through DFtS before the absurdity was too much to bear, I could very well be wrong, so please feel free to correct me.

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:Havocs are great and are what I usually use, just I can't always get them in a formation and that's when I run in to problems. I'm not even looking for dedicated anti-air, its just that when I am looking at my list to see what they are missing and what I should spend the final couple hundred points on, its usually some kind of air support, which is the hardest to include by itself when not using a CAD. The double heldrake formation has been mentioned, but that's 340 points I don't always have.

What are you running that you can't jam a squad of autohavoks in? As mentioned, Autohavoks, Forgefiends and Oblits are make servicable emergency AA, the first 2 through volume of shots that usually get twin linked by a Tzeentch herald while Oblits have twin linked melta guns and the volume of fire through assault cannons that they can get the job done in a pinch or at least make them jin, and that's half the battle more often than not.

The Deathless Host wrote:2 Hades Cannon Forgefiend. It puts out 8 S8 AP shots a turn. Pop deamonforge and that's a rerollable 6+\

Daemonforge is re-rolls to wound/pen, not to hit.

Oops -_- well guess next time I should have the codex in front of me XD still 8 S8 a turn is not bad.

I can usually fit at least a single havoc squad when going with a standard Chaos Warband formation, but I'm not always sure if that is enough. My real question, however, is when I am not using the standard core, how do I fit it in. The EC, DG, or WE formations that simply use a lord and cult troops are good examples of what I am talking about. When using a formation or formations that don't include a space for Havocs, what should I do?

Take a hellbrute formation with all ml and reapers maybe

Stop taking bad formations like the EC, DG or WE ones? Personally I'd be looking at taking double drakes and relying on vector strike since any of the other formations that allow you to take some sort of anti air are going to be more than 340 points.

Either that or take a CAD with a sorceror, min cultists and your choiice of AA options in addition to whatever formations you want to take. It's difficult to go past the warband though, it offers quite a lot of what most CSM armys want.

Alternatively, you can do what other armies have traditionally done and just ignore or outmaneuver enemy fliers, possibly even stacking -reserve modifiers to make them even less effective, though are either out of codex or unreliable warlord traits, so it's not as easy for us to do the -reserve trick.

Doesn't seem to help much when you are facing three storm ravens. :(

Anyone use the hell blades?

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Anyone use the hell blades?

I have. That do good damage for the price (always upgrade to helstorm autocannons) but they are only a flying land speeder for durability with 5++ so if you opponent actually has an anti-air weapon the Hell Blade will die

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Doesn't seem to help much when you are facing three storm ravens. :(

Seriously... I'm not being snippy.

But if someone fields 3 storm ravens, ignore them and go after the rest of the army... and more importantly play the missions.

Also, I 2nd the dual-drakes. They can be resiliant targets if nothing else.


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The "Fighter Ace" rules... are they only found in that Death From the Skies suppliment? Or was this a White Dwarf only rule?
See this:


If you can take this in standard 40k (w/o DFTS), might be worth taking on your Hades 'Drake...

Fighter Aces is a 30? Pt Upgrade.

I much rather take an Air Superiority Detachment instead and get a free Wing Leader upgrade, plus reserve manipulation.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Fighter Aces is a 30? Pt Upgrade.

I much rather take an Air Superiority Detachment instead and get a free Wing Leader upgrade, plus reserve manipulation.

yeah even if you don't otherwise use DFTS the air superiority detachment is a handy thing to slide in,

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Fighter Aces is a 30? Pt Upgrade.

I much rather take an Air Superiority Detachment instead and get a free Wing Leader upgrade, plus reserve manipulation.

35 point upgrade outside of DFTS missions. Can be used one only one model in your army.